Jorginho

[Rapkun 668]

3 minutes ago, Jason said:

lol No one is crazy enough to think that Jorginho doesn't have his flaws. They have been mentioned here more times than one could remember but it's so clear that the author has an agenda (and not just saying this based on the article) and the article focuses only the negative aspects. And as I pointed out, where was this article when we were playing well earlier this season with Jorginho in the XI and Lampard was praising him almost every week?

The article is close to an attempt at making fun of the player. You would think Jorginho is not good enough to play in the lower leagues after reading this. It's a shame because it's still one of the best pieces I've read about the player.

[King Kante 1,507]

3 hours ago, Jason said:

That's the thing. We don't know what exactly is on Lampard's mind (if you want to believe his words, he said something along the lines that Jorginho is important in the team recently). People are just assuming Jorginho will be sold because of the lineups since the restart but we have also seen that putting Kante in the DM role is like square pegs in round holes and Gilmour isn't quite ready yet, despite the hype. Moreover Kante can't seem to stay consistently fit these days and Gilmour won't be back until October and he will then need time to get back into things. 

Well of course. None of us on here know exactly what is going on, so we just speculate. However, for me, of all the CM's I am of the opinion that Jorginho (well actually maybe Barkley but I count him more of a squad player) is the most vulnerable. 

[Jase 43,479]

1 minute ago, King Kante said:

Well of course. None of us on here know exactly what is going on, so we just speculate. However, for me, of all the CM's I am of the opinion that Jorginho (well actually maybe Barkley but I count him more of a squad player) is the most vulnerable. 

If the logic is Jorginho will be sold because he hasn't played much since the restart, then I guess Barkley will not be sold - even if we get Havertz - because he has been playing a lot since the restart? 

[Puliiszola 519]

2 hours ago, Jason said:

1. It's hard to take the author seriously when he tends to ramble a lot and he seems to have an agenda on Jorginho.

2. Seems a tad convenient that the article came out now, focusing on Jorginho's recent struggles because he is not starting games. Where was this when we were playing well earlier this season with Jorginho in the XI?

3. Hard to take the author seriously when this sentence exists in the article:

 

 

BARKLEY? SPECIAL PLAYER!? 

Don't know if we can say we were playing "well". Getting opened so easily. 9 losses in 28 games. 

Also, there were a lot of jorginho critiques before the whole fiasco too.

 

[Jase 43,479]

4 minutes ago, Puliiszola said:

Don't know if we can say we were playing "well". Getting opened so easily. 9 losses in 28 games. 

It's about the overall play. There was much more fluidity, movement in our attacks. It was certainly more eye catching and better than what we have produced of late. We have basically gone from looking like an all-rounded team to Pulisic FC. 

4 minutes ago, Puliiszola said:

Also, there were a lot of jorginho critiques before the whole fiasco too.

Fiasco? As I said above, no one is crazy to think Jorginho doesn't have his flaws but the timing of the article is all too convenient and is extremely biased toward a point of view. 

[Puliiszola 519]

23 minutes ago, Jason said:

It's about the overall play. There was much more fluidity, movement in our attacks. It was certainly more eye catching and better than what we have produced of late. We have basically gone from looking like an all-rounded team to Pulisic FC. 

Fiasco? As I said above, no one is crazy to think Jorginho doesn't have his flaws but the timing of the article is all too convenient and is extremely biased toward a point of view. 

How was it easy on the eye when the same thing kept happening again and again?

I think we have forgotten how poor we had it at end of Nov to around Feb. The losses to whu, Everton, soton, bournemouth. 4 losses in 6 games. All of them following the same script. 

 

Yes, the article is biased, but that's fine. If one has an opinion, then they should try to delve to find out proof if their opinion has any merit. This does. All this "jorginho helps us playing beuatiful football", is pointless when that football is mostly pedestrian and the same football finds it difficult to break down low blocks (which has been our Achilles heel this season). 

[Jase 43,479]

4 minutes ago, Puliiszola said:

How was it easy on the eye when the same thing kept happening again and again?

I think we have forgotten how poor we had it at end of Nov to around Feb. The losses to whu, Everton, soton, bournemouth. 4 losses in 6 games. All of them following the same script. 

What about August to October? If Jorginho is really shit as you keep on saying it, then why Lampard kept on playing him?

5 minutes ago, Puliiszola said:

Yes, the article is biased, but that's fine. If one has an opinion, then they should try to delve to find out proof if their opinion has any merit.

How is biased opinion fine when that person only looks at a single point of view? Not even looking at the topic objectively and say compare the pros and cons etc. Moreover and as I keep pointing out, why do the article now? Why at this convenient time and not say, months ago?

8 minutes ago, Puliiszola said:

All this "jorginho helps us playing beuatiful football", is pointless when that football is mostly pedestrian and the same football finds it difficult to break down low blocks (which has been our Achilles heel this season). 

No one saying is Jorginho is the sole reason between us playing beautiful football and shit football but he was clearly an important cog in our fluid midfield with Kovacic and Mount earlier this season. 

Right, it's clearly all Jorginho's fault that we couldn't beat those teams. It's clearly his fault that our defenders and keeper can't keep goals out to save their lives. It's his fault that our attackers couldn't put away chances. 

[Puliiszola 519]

6 hours ago, Jason said:

What about August to October? If Jorginho is really shit as you keep on saying it, then why Lampard kept on playing him?

How is biased opinion fine when that person only looks at a single point of view? Not even looking at the topic objectively and say compare the pros and cons etc. Moreover and as I keep pointing out, why do the article now? Why at this convenient time and not say, months ago?

No one saying is Jorginho is the sole reason between us playing beautiful football and shit football but he was clearly an important cog in our fluid midfield with Kovacic and Mount earlier this season. 

Right, it's clearly all Jorginho's fault that we couldn't beat those teams. It's clearly his fault that our defenders and keeper can't keep goals out to save their lives. It's his fault that our attackers couldn't put away chances. 

Lampard kept playing because we literally did not have players to fill in. Kante kept getting injured, rlc was injured. Mount had to play winger as CHO was injured, puli needed time to settle in. We literally did not have mids. We were good from August to Oct. But that's the point, once the teams figured us and jorginho out, it was not only easy to stop us, but counter the shit out of us. Jorginho was/is targetted by most teams.

 

Why do you think this is the only article out there? These articles about jorginho's flaws have been coming out one after another since his sarri days. 

 

Obviously, it's not "only" his fault. But like you said, "he is an important cog" for our beautiful football, similarly he is an important cog of our defensive prowess. As for pros and cons, what's the point of a list when people want to absolve a defensive midfielder for all his defensive frailities because "he can keep the ball ticking". He makes our already poor defense look way worse. As for attack, can't score, can't assist, hell does not even have a great passing range. I mean what are the pros that I supposed to be talking about here? 

[Simon1991 231]

9 hours ago, Jason said:

lol No one is crazy enough to think that Jorginho doesn't have his flaws. They have been mentioned here more times than one could remember but it's so clear that the author has an agenda (and not just saying this based on the article) and the article focuses onlyana the negative aspects. And as I pointed out, where was this article when we were playing well earlier this season with Jorginho in the XI and Lampard was praising him almost every week?

Just to share an anecdote on this.

I "know" this poster from a french forum where he used to post a lot before he moved on (maybe 8-10 years ago). He's always had very insightful analysis and you could tell he had a very analytical view of football, but he's always had a huge bias towards certain players. He would either have scapegoats he would always try to demolish, or on the contrary he would try to convince you some ok players were god-tier.

He was both respected for his analytical skills, and slightly made fun of because everybody knew he was extremely biased.

More specifically on Jorginho, it clear for everyone to see from the get-go that he completely dislikes Jorgi  and would do anything to try and prove his point that Jorginho sucks. He just highlighted specific plays from only one game where Jorginho had a really poor game and tried to make it look like this is the case for all games and that's the player Jorgi is.

On the top of my head, he said that Jorginho is bad under pressure and put two clips where he lost the ball to try and prove his point. I think most of us will agree he's not bad under pressure, quite the contrary.

 

 

 

[kellzfresh 7,229]

I'm in support of selling Jorginho. And it's not just because of his limitations, it's purely because the successful teams in recent times (like Liverpool and Madrid) do not play with a Regista. 

Casemiro is a pure DM, while Fabinho is a physically dominant Defensive Midfielder who allows the team to push forward knowing they are protected at the back. Last two seasons ManCity played with Fernadinho as the DM, making tackles and interceptions which allowed them to be able to play very attacking midfielders like KDB and Silva in the No. 8 (box to box) roles. ManCity won two titles in a row before they tinkered with that and brought a controller in Rodri, removing Fernandinho from the base of Midfield (This has failed woefully). We are hoping to sign Kai Havertz to help us improve on the kind of creativity we saw against Norwich. How do we play Havertz, Ziyech and Pulisic together if the team has to protect Jorginho at the back?

No body plays a regista that needs protection from fellow midfielders these days, so there is no reason why a team like us that wants to join the successful teams should be playing an outdated system.

[Puliiszola 519]

1 hour ago, kellzfresh said:

I'm in support of selling Jorginho. And it's not just because of his limitations, it's purely because the successful teams in recent times (like Liverpool and Madrid) do not play with a Regista. 

Casemiro is a pure DM, while Fabinho is a physically dominant Defensive Midfielder who allows the team to push forward knowing they are protected at the back. Last two seasons ManCity played with Fernadinho as the DM, making tackles and interceptions which allowed them to be able to play very attacking midfielders like KDB and Silva in the No. 8 (box to box) roles. ManCity won two titles in a row before they tinkered with that and brought a controller in Rodri, removing Fernandinho from the base of Midfield (This has failed woefully). We are hoping to sign Kai Havertz to help us improve on the kind of creativity we saw against Norwich. How do we play Havertz, Ziyech and Pulisic together if the team has to protect Jorginho at the back?

No body plays a regista that needs protection from fellow midfielders these days, so there is no reason why a team like us that wants to join the successful teams should be playing an outdated system.

This. 

Along with you can't realistically expect to change 5 at the back to compensate the weakness of the one ahead of them.

The cons far outweigh the cons of jorginho. If like Pirlo he had marchisio and Asamoah as well as vidal doing his dirty work for him, then it would have made sense. But we have mount, rlc, kai, kova. We need a proper DM to get the best out of their skills of creativity and ball carrying without always looking behind their shoulders about jorginho

[Nero 1,847]

Jorginho at his best

 

[Jase 43,479]

3 hours ago, Puliiszola said:

Lampard kept playing because we literally did not have players to fill in. Kante kept getting injured, rlc was injured. Mount had to play winger as CHO was injured, puli needed time to settle in. We literally did not have mids. We were good from August to Oct. But that's the point, once the teams figured us and jorginho out, it was not only easy to stop us, but counter the shit out of us. Jorginho was/is targetted by most teams.

That is not quite true. Yes, Kante missed a lot of games through injury earlier this season but when he did play, Jorginho was still starting games and playing in front of the back 4.

Mount only played a few games in the LW. Pedro started a couple of games earlier this season and IIRC, CHO was already back fit in September. 

3 hours ago, Puliiszola said:

Why do you think this is the only article out there? These articles about jorginho's flaws have been coming out one after another since his sarri days. 

No, I am aware of other articles out there but if you don't know anything about football and you read that article, you would think Jorginho is the worst player on the planet judging by skewed that piece is. 

3 hours ago, Puliiszola said:

Obviously, it's not "only" his fault. But like you said, "he is an important cog" for our beautiful football, similarly he is an important cog of our defensive prowess. As for pros and cons, what's the point of a list when people want to absolve a defensive midfielder for all his defensive frailities because "he can keep the ball ticking". He makes our already poor defense look way worse. As for attack, can't score, can't assist, hell does not even have a great passing range. I mean what are the pros that I supposed to be talking about here? 

And has Kante playing there made us better? He doesn't have a good passing range and doesn't take any risks with his passing either, constantly passing backwards or sideways (sounds familiar) AND we are still conceding dumb goals or still looking defensively vulnerable even with him in the position. 

[Jase 43,479]

2 hours ago, kellzfresh said:

it's purely because the successful teams in recent times (like Liverpool and Madrid) do not play with a Regista. 

Casemiro is a pure DM, while Fabinho is a physically dominant Defensive Midfielder who allows the team to push forward knowing they are protected at the back. Last two seasons ManCity played with Fernadinho as the DM, making tackles and interceptions which allowed them to be able to play very attacking midfielders like KDB and Silva in the No. 8 (box to box) roles. ManCity won two titles in a row before they tinkered with that and brought a controller in Rodri, removing Fernandinho from the base of Midfield (This has failed woefully). We are hoping to sign Kai Havertz to help us improve on the kind of creativity we saw against Norwich. How do we play Havertz, Ziyech and Pulisic together if the team has to protect Jorginho at the back?

You are forgetting or missing another very important point here - Man City and Liverpool are also great at pressing the opposition, recovering the ball and/or making tactical fouls. Their defensive solidity - in Man City's case, at their peak - did not happen because of only one or two players. It is also a team effort. How many times, for instance, have we seen Man City stop counter attacks or attacks before they really got going by fouling the opposition? Our team aren't doing that and heck, our pressing is also all over the place. There is also the fact that 3/4 of the team are usually ahead of the ball whenever we lose it, causing us to be so vulnerable defensively.

Moreover, players like Fernandinho also have a good passing ability on top of their defensive capabilities. You don't play for a top quality side if you're only good at doing the defensive side of things but hopeless in passing and/or constructing moves. Can Kante do both sides of that well? Not from what we have seen. He doesn't take any risks with his passing (e.g passing forward in any sense!), constantly passes backwards and sideways, doesn't offer himself as a passing option whenever our CBs have the ball and the fact that some teams have not even bothered pressing him when he's on the ball in the DM role says a lot. 

3 hours ago, kellzfresh said:

so there is no reason why a team like us that wants to join the successful teams should be playing an outdated system.

This is ironic considering only 3-4 months ago, we were praising Gilmour to the heavens for shining in the regista role. 

[Puliiszola 519]

11 minutes ago, Jason said:

has Kante playing there made us better? He doesn't have a good passing range and doesn't take any risks with his passing either, constantly passing backwards or sideways (sounds familiar) AND we are still conceding dumb goals or still looking defensively vulnerable even with him in the position. 

Really? 

Villa 1 goal conceded - set piece

City 1 goal conceded - set piece (unstoppable) and kept city at bay through out the game

Whu - 3 goals conceded - 2 by set pieces.

Watford - did they have a chance?

With kante we would have conceded far lesser oppurtunities from open play in those 4 games than with jorginho in a 15 mins sub performance against palace where we were mega lucky to come out with a win.

As for kante's passing, we all know thats not why he will be playing as a DM. It would be for better defensive cover to an already troubling back 4 and giving our no. 8s more freedom. Whereas with jorginho we lose every sense of balance in attack or in defence. All we have is worthless and ponderous possession between him and the back 4. So to answer your question, a definitive YES to if kante made us better.

[Jase 43,479]

4 minutes ago, Puliiszola said:

Really? 

Villa 1 goal conceded - set piece

City 1 goal conceded - set piece (unstoppable) and kept city at bay through out the game

Whu - 3 goals conceded - 2 by set pieces.

Watford - did they have a chance?

If we are gonna look at the goals conceded that way, then am sure one could look through the earlier ones with Jorginho and see not all the goals conceded were his fault.

The City game is hard to judge because we set up defensively to play on the counter attack. Even Christensen and Rudiger looked great that night!

7 minutes ago, Puliiszola said:

With kante we would have conceded far lesser oppurtunities from open play in those 4 games than with jorginho in a 15 mins sub performance against palace where we were mega lucky to come out with a win.

Alternatively, it could have been a comfortable win at Palace had somebody stopped Zaha before he shot or Kepa saved it and Christensen not being Christensen for their second goal and those were before Jorginho even came on. If we had not make those mistakes, that last crazy 5 minutes wouldn't have happened.

9 minutes ago, Puliiszola said:

As for kante's passing, we all know thats not why he will be playing as a DM. It would be for better defensive cover to an already troubling back 4 and giving our no. 8s more freedom. Whereas with jorginho we lose every sense of balance in attack or in defence. All we have is worthless and ponderous possession between him and the back 4. So to answer your question, a definitive YES to if kante made us better.

And Kante do not play between himself and the back 4? He doesn't pass sideways or backwards? 

We don't know for sure if Lampard wants someone in that role purely for defensive purposes only in the long term. Am sure it wouldn't have escaped his attention that teams did not even bother pressing Kante much when we have the ball because we all know he doesn't have the capability to do much with it offensively. 

[SUNZ 155]

Really good article here - https://weaintgotnohistory.sbnation.com/features/2020/7/17/21328060/jorginho

 

[Puliiszola 519]

6 minutes ago, Jason said:

If we are gonna look at the goals conceded that way, then am sure one could look through the earlier ones with Jorginho and see not all the goals conceded were his fault.

The City game is hard to judge because we set up defensively to play on the counter attack. Even Christensen and Rudiger looked great that night!

Alternatively, it could have been a comfortable win at Palace had somebody stopped Zaha before he shot or Kepa saved it and Christensen not being Christensen for their second goal and those were before Jorginho even came on. If we had not make those mistakes, that last crazy 5 minutes wouldn't have happened.

And Kante do not play between himself and the back 4? He doesn't pass sideways or backwards? 

We don't know for sure if Lampard wants someone in that role purely for defensive purposes only in the long term. Am sure it wouldn't have escaped his attention that teams did not even bother pressing Kante much when we have the ball because we all know he doesn't have the capability to do much with it offensively. 

Go ahead, I would love an analysis of each of our goals that way to be proven wrong. Honestly. Because just like SHU, Jorginho might not be in a direct mistake or line of fire for the goal conceded, but as a whole was nullified time and again by SHU and a lot of opposition teams.

COuld we have set up in that way with jorginho? Remembver this was the same team who got embarassed 6-0 by city.

Seriously? Jorginho would have made no difference for the zaha goal because he would/should have been where gilmour was. James lost the ball at half way line and he would have been going with the winger. It was a banger/GK mistake. There are some goals which are unstoppable (like KDB's), no amount of assigning blame would siffice. And irrespective of the goal, its the midfield "control" that jorginho brings to the team, right? Even a team like palace bossed us with him on the pitch and carved us open 2/3 times.

Who is saying kante does not do that. But I dont praise him for it,  or say that he should be in the team because he can make a simple sideways or backwards pass of 5 metres. That is the point. What jorginho brings to the team can be replaced by Kante, what kante brings to the team as a DM, cant be replaced even a bit by jorginho.

Or maybe, teams did not press kante because they are aware of his busting runs and decent ball retention. WHere as when jorginho plays, he is continously targetted by opposition teams for his slow recovery, 0 chance of going past a player and possession vulnerability. Or are you trying to say that Jorginho is pressed because teams fear he will play that Cesc-esque pass from the deep. because that would call for a LOL