Cesc Fàbregas

[Namika 922]

It had nothing to do with Cesc, we were just outnumbered in midfield.

[Daniel1980 1,425]

Neville on MNF just analysed Cescs first half performance defensively and it's safe to say he was pretty poor without the ball. It was obvious watching the game he was miles better when Ramires came on, he had more freedom and was able to get forward without worrying what's behind him.

Pretty much everyone was pretty poor without the ball in the first half, to be fair. But yeah, he obviously won't complain, but he's far more used to playing in 4-3-3 when he doesn't have to worry so much about playing so close to defenders. Playing in the pivot limits his creativity a lot, IMO. He's essentially forced to do the job he isn't very good at(defending) and it limits his creativity and contribution in the final third. I mean, his decision-making in the final third and his final ball are one of the best out there, but he's wasted being played too deep at times. I said before the start of the season that Cesc would do much better as the most advanced midfielder in 4-3-3 and I haven't changed my opinion. In 4-3-3, he can control the play from the deep if needed, but he can also join the attack more often and link-up with Eden and Costa, as he did in the second half against Swansea.

[Styles 9,790]

Neville on MNF just analysed Cescs first half performance defensively and it's safe to say he was pretty poor without the ball. It was obvious watching the game he was miles better when Ramires came on, he had more freedom and was able to get forward without worrying what's behind him.

I saw that too, pretty conclusive I thought. Hopefully the video is uploaded to youtube.

[Barbara 15,149]

I saw that too, pretty conclusive I thought. Hopefully the video is uploaded to youtube.

I'll do better, I'll re-watch the match because as far as I remember it, he was just another player who couldn't find the way to press and position in a hot mess that were the first 30 minutes of the match. When nobody around you is playing their part, it's hard to find the guilty. Also Matic committed a few mistakes that set Swansea up... it didn't help Cesc that he was the closest - formation wise - to deal with an erratic Matic.

I'll analyze that match into detail and it doesn't surprise me that the media is choosing to focus (or at least pay attention) to what one of our players could have done wrong when another one had a hat trick or the debuting striker scored in addition to Cesc assisting twice. It's also a coincidence United netted 4 against the almighty Rangers. I mean why talk about what really matters when they can nitpick Cesc and probably worship United, right?

[TheOneChan95 225]

I think Cesc is better from deep if we are playing a weaker team and can control the midfield. This would be due to the fact that he is one of the best out there in sending splendid defence splitting passes from deep. He allows us to move the ball so much quicker as well.

But from what we have seen so far he is probably better as the advanced midfielder in a 433 for tougher games since it gives us good balance. The 4231 seems like a good way to commit suicide against good teams since he isn't as good defensively.

[Styles 9,790]

I'll do better, I'll re-watch the match because as far as I remember it, he was just another player who couldn't find the way to press and position in a hot mess that were the first 30 minutes of the match. When nobody around you is playing their part, it's hard to find the guilty. Also Matic committed a few mistakes that set Swansea up... it didn't help Cesc that he was the closest - formation wise - to deal with an erratic Matic.

I'll analyze that match into detail and it doesn't surprise me that the media is choosing to focus (or at least pay attention) to what one of our players could have done wrong when another one had a hat trick or the debuting striker scored in addition to Cesc assisting twice. It's also a coincidence United netted 4 against the almighty Rangers. I mean why talk about what really matters when they can nitpick Cesc and probably worship United, right?

Barbara, I think you're too emotionally invested in Fabregas and read far too much into any criticism. They MNF crew did go on to praise Costa for his hattrick and our ability to bounce back from a bad start, but that doesn't mean there wasn't some worrying things on display.

Fabregas is weak defensively -I think that much is clear for me at this point - but as long as we carry on overwhelming the weaker sides it is something everybody can live with. And Mourinho is surely too smart to ever play him in a two man midfield against decent opposition so there's nothing to worry about really.

But I do think Matic's poor start to the season can also be partly attributed to an increased workload because of a partner that is significantly weaker defensively than his previous partners (Luis, Ramires, Mikel, Lampard etc) and a CB duo that are too slow and do not push up to squeeze the opposition leaving Matic with too much ground to cover.

[CHOULO19 24,332]

Pressing is a team action. When someone makes a mistake, everyone else looks lost and out of position. And from what I saw, in the first 25 minutes, everyone in the first bank of four (Cesc, Matic, Schurrle and Hazard) made mistakes in pressing, leaving the Swansea midfielders with time and space and our players in trouble.

[CHOULO19 24,332]

Fabregas is weak defensively -I think that much is clear for me at this point

Way too early to pass that judgement. If you're going to judge on the opening 4 matches, then Matis is weak defensively as well.

No idea why we need to pick Cesc out in the first 25 minutes against Swansea when Matic and Schurrle made more defensive mistakes.

[Starman60 1,343]

Fabregas will be a great player for us. Neville can pick all the holes he likes in his performance, but in the overall picture of the season so far he has made something like 6 assists for us. And Costa is reaping the rewards from Cesc's play. Matic was the one to blame for the Swansea goal as he had his pocket picked by Routledge. After Mourinho's half time words of wisdom and a substitution we were a far more balanced side. We are only four games into the season and Mourinho is still fine tuning the team. And you can be sure that when he is finished, he will get he very best out of Fabregas. I think the guy is playing superbly for us and he has filled a major void left by Lampard. For me our defence is a worry, we cannot hope to outgun every team in the league and hope that if they score 3 we will score 4.(although we do look capable of this)

Just a note on Frank....."Frank Lampard is a ghost his former self" This was stated by one of the tabloids following his performance against Arsenal. It's a shame as he will only damage his reputation by turning out for City, as he is clearly a spent force in the Premiership.

[Barbara 15,149]

Pretty much everyone was pretty poor without the ball in the first half, to be fair. But yeah, he obviously won't complain, but he's far more used to playing in 4-3-3 when he doesn't have to worry so much about playing so close to defenders. Playing in the pivot limits his creativity a lot, IMO. He's essentially forced to do the job he isn't very good at(defending) and it limits his creativity and contribution in the final third. I mean, his decision-making in the final third and his final ball are one of the best out there, but he's wasted being played too deep at times. I said before the start of the season that Cesc would do much better as the most advanced midfielder in 4-3-3 and I haven't changed my opinion. In 4-3-3, he can control the play from the deep if needed, but he can also join the attack more often and link-up with Eden and Costa, as he did in the second half against Swansea.

thing is he and Oscar interchange a lot and he did the same when Ramires came against Swansea. The two more advanced in a midfield of three had been interchanging a lot regardless of who they are. I think with Ramires he should exchange less, not because Ramires can't provide anything higher - he seems to have found his assisting and passing boots recently - but simply because he can defend better than Cesc. When it's Oscar the partner, I think it could be 50/50 between them taking turns into the most advanced position.

I honestly think we've been spoiled with Cesc and Costa working so well so quickly that we unconsciously sort of started demanding them to excel on everything when it's already a big accomplishment to have worked offensively so well and quickly as they did. It's only natural to take some time to make all adjustments necessary to not only welcome the new players - especially key players such as Cesc and Costa - but also to change a system. We've completely changed our style from last season. The defense is hurting now and one of the big reasons is because the midfield isn't fully set and gelled yet. I don't think we'll be as solid defensively as we were last season because it's not possible for a player to be deep and high at the same time, contributing ahead and defensively all together, but I'm sure there'll be considerable improvement from the shaky, leaky presentations we've seen so far.

I think it's only fair to give Cesc more time to adapt as well as the team to learn how to execute everything they're supposed to flawlessly. We aren't in transition anymore - imo - but it doesn't mean we won't need time to adjust to all the changes. We need it and a few weeks and four matches isn't long enough. Cesc, Oscar, Ramires, Matic, defenders will certainly improve their understanding of the new tactics, the new teammates and of each other. A lot of a team working well defensively comes from good understanding, coverage and physical fitness. We had an immediate understanding between Cesc and Costa (or Cesc and the rest of the team when it comes to attack), but defensively it needs more time because many times the midfielders have their back to the defenders, or they're running all together to cover spaces and opponents, while they're always looking towards the attackers - who are trying to find spaces in the middle of the defense. It's sort of natural to see the team struggling to find their defensive feet after so many changes, while not being at their best physically - dealing among other things with how slow both our CBs are... we have weaknesses in our defense that were minimized last season by a very tight midfield that protected the CBs closely, restraining (more or less, depending on the opposition) our FBs to attack. When the pivot's first concern and goal is to protect the CBs and the FBs don't have free reign to support the attack, it's much easier to deal with slow CBs.

[TheOneChan95 225]

But I do think Matic's poor start to the season can also be partly attributed to an increased workload because of a partner that is significantly weaker defensively than his previous partners (Luis, Ramires, Mikel, Lampard etc) and a CB duo that are too slow and do not push up to squeeze the opposition leaving Matic with too much ground to cover.

I don't think current 36yo Lamps is much of an improvement tbh. He had to regularly commit cynical fouls as he let players get by him.

But I completely agree with you on our CB duo. I think this is one of the main problems with implementing a more aggresive style of play. JT and Cahill are far more suitable for situations where we soak up pressure. In that respect they are excellent. However, what I feel our current style needs is someone like Kompany, an aggressive front-foot type defender who is pacey enough to deal with players who get behind them and also technically competent in building from the back. Defenders like that would allow us to play higher up the pitch. If Luiz had fewer brain farts he could have been that kind of guy.

Currently I think the short term solution would be the 433. It's kind of unrealistic to expect our current duo to change their natural game in such a short span of time. Maybe Zouma and Christensen could be developed that way though.

[Daniel1980 1,425]

thing is he and Oscar interchange a lot and he did the same when Ramires came against Swansea. The two more advanced in a midfield of three had been interchanging a lot regardless of who they are. I think with Ramires he should exchange less, not because Ramires can't provide anything higher - he seems to have found his assisting and passing boots recently - but simply because he can defend better than Cesc. When it's Oscar the partner, I think it could be 50/50 between them taking turns into the most advanced position.

I honestly think we've been spoiled with Cesc and Costa working so well so quickly that we unconsciously sort of started demanding them to excel on everything when it's already a big accomplishment to have worked offensively so well and quickly as they did. It's only natural to take some time to make all adjustments necessary to not only welcome the new players - especially key players such as Cesc and Costa - but also to change a system. We've completely changed our style from last season. The defense is hurting now and one of the big reasons is because the midfield isn't fully set and gelled yet. I don't think we'll be as solid defensively as we were last season because it's not possible for a player to be deep and high at the same time, contributing ahead and defensively all together, but I'm sure there'll be considerable improvement from the shaky, leaky presentations we've seen so far.

I think it's only fair to give Cesc more time to adapt as well as the team to learn how to execute everything they're supposed to flawlessly. We aren't in transition anymore - imo - but it doesn't mean we won't need time to adjust to all the changes. We need it and a few weeks and four matches isn't long enough. Cesc, Oscar, Ramires, Matic, defenders will certainly improve their understanding of the new tactics, the new teammates and of each other. A lot of a team working well defensively comes from good understanding, coverage and physical fitness. We had an immediate understanding between Cesc and Costa (or Cesc and the rest of the team when it comes to attack), but defensively it needs more time because many times the midfielders have their back to the defenders, or they're running all together to cover spaces and opponents, while they're always looking towards the attackers - who are trying to find spaces in the middle of the defense. It's sort of natural to see the team struggling to find their defensive feet after so many changes, while not being at their best physically - dealing among other things with how slow both our CBs are... we have weaknesses in our defense that were minimized last season by a very tight midfield that protected the CBs closely, restraining (more or less, depending on the opposition) our FBs to attack. When the pivot's first concern and goal is to protect the CBs and the FBs don't have free reign to support the attack, it's much easier to deal with slow CBs.

Agreed. That's precisely why I was of the opinion we needed to buy a fast top CB this summer. Our defence was so good last season mostly because our defenders were protected by our midfield and attacking players, which hurt our attack a lot. You can't have it both ways: if our midfield is more attack-minded, they can't cover everything, so ideally we need fast CBs for this to work, especially since Matic and Cesc aren't fast. That's why I wanted Benatia. JT is clearly struggling.

[Styles 9,790]

Way too early to pass that judgement. If you're going to judge on the opening 4 matches, then Matis is weak defensively as well.

I wouldn't agree that Matic has been weak defensively; I think Matic and Fabregas have been poor for different reasons and that the latter has had a negative impact on the former.

No idea why we need to pick Cesc out in the first 25 minutes against Swansea when Matic and Schurrle made more defensive mistakes.

It's been more than 25 minutes. Matic's mistakes are because of two reasons: he presses relentlessly expecting his teammates to do the same but 1) the CBs don't push up and 2) Fabregas is weak defensively.

Matic and Fabregas both need Ramires...even against the likes of Swansea at home in my honest opinion.

[zolayes 14,489]

I guess we should replace Cesc with Mikel

[Barbara 15,149]

Barbara, I think you're too emotionally invested in Fabregas and read far too much into any criticism. They MNF crew did go on to praise Costa for his hattrick and our ability to bounce back from a bad start, but that doesn't mean there wasn't some worrying things on display.

Fabregas is weak defensively -I think that much is clear for me at this point - but as long as we carry on overwhelming the weaker sides it is something everybody can live with. And Mourinho is surely too smart to ever play him in a two man midfield against decent opposition so there's nothing to worry about really.

But I do think Matic's poor start to the season can also be partly attributed to an increased workload because of a partner that is significantly weaker defensively than his previous partners (Luis, Ramires, Mikel, Lampard etc) and a CB duo that are too slow and do not push up to squeeze the opposition leaving Matic with too much ground to cover.

I'm not emotionally involved on Fabregas. I'm just... it's just... it's because... when he takes the ball... and he looks up... and he's perf... and he's amazing... and he's so smart... and his vision is unmatchable... and he's so damn cute now that wears blue... and he's so hungry to win... and he seems to fit so well in the team... it's just... I'm in love, okay?

There's a difference between emotionally involved and being completely, blindly, irrevocably in love with a player, right? Right?

Speaking seriously though... I didn't watch MNF - although I would have loved to, just forgot it was on so early, as I live watched MOTD Saturday and plan to continue to do so, so I can't say what Neville meant... What I can do say is that Cesc isn't the one responsible for us being dominated by Swansea's midfield. Matic had a mare in the first minutes, misplacing passes, being sloppy in some tackles and easily bypassed. Schurrle also misplaced a lot of passes, we didn't hold the ball well enough, we didn't press well, we couldn't set up the tempo. Oscar wasn't as effective tackling (IIRC he didn't have one single tackle during the match - or at least during the first half). Azpilicueta was caught a couple of times... so if someone wants to analyze what went wrong with our midfield in the first 30 minutes, they have to look at what the whole team did wrong. Schurrle, Matic, Cesc, Oscar, Azpilicueta and even Iva exposed one another a few times, they seemed to have no chemistry, not to know what they were doing and one individual mistake from one of them, put the next in line in trouble. Matic - who's our thermometer in terms of solidness in the midfield - has been starting the matches quite slow. I don't remember Burnley anymore because that's too long ago for my memory, but he had a bad first half against Leicester, Everton and Swansea getting better in the second and as the matches went on. When the rock behind Cesc is soft, Cesc is going to suffer. Am I blaming Matic for Cesc's shortcomings? No, I'm not, I just think Matic - and not Cesc - is the rock in our midfield and had it been Ramires, Oscar, or even Mikel by Matic's side they would have suffered from Matic's mistakes and poor football early in all those matches. Then it's no wonder when Matic got better during the match, so did the midfield in general.

Thing is whoever is going to play Cesc's role - and it should be clear we don't have even the slightest close replacement for him, the same way we don't for Matic - will probably have better defensive instincts than him, but they also won't have nearly the same vision and quality in the attack. I welcome his liability because of how productive he is. Remember the Mata discussion? He's a clear improvement defensively to Mata and he's faster (although not much) and he's stronger too (and also far more annoying for the opponents to deal with), but it doesn't mean he doesn't come with a price. He does - but it's a price worth paying. He isn't as weak defensively or physically as Mata was and he can offer nearly the same in terms of vision. He's an improvement to Mata in a system/team that desperately needed someone creative and with good vision to make up for our #10(s) limitations, but who wouldn't compromise defensively as much. Cesc can tackle, he's more physical and virile than Mata. He's just no defensive genius. The style changed and the reason why we pursued Cesc and brought him here is because we needed a player of his quality - vision, creation, technical wise. He fit the bill for what we needed and that's the new Chelsea and the new Chelsea won't ever be as solid defensively as last season's because that's not what we aim anymore. We've changed our profile as a team and being a little bit more exposed comes as a consequence.

And to answer your latest post, Matic's mistakes - the majority of them - had nothing to do with someone else coming to tackle with him. His decision making has been poor, his passing has been poor and he hasn't been anywhere near the tough guy he was last season for some streaks of time during the matches. Maybe Cesc's presence makes it worse for him, but many of his mistakes were passing rather marking. He set opponents up with misplaced passes or bad positioning. I think he'll improve because of himself, but also because the rest of the team will too. I'm not saying Cesc's presence doesn't make his life more difficult, it does, but he should learn how to deal with it, because that's how we play now and he has the quality to deal with it, he just needs to hit the zone again.

[CHOULO19 24,332]

I wouldn't agree that Matic has been weak defensively; I think Matic and Fabregas have been poor for different reasons and that the latter has had a negative impact on the former.

Why not the other way around? In terms of individual mistakes, Matic has made more defensive mistakes than Fabregas.

It's been more than 25 minutes. Matic's mistakes are because of two reasons: he presses relentlessly expecting his teammates to do the same but 1) the CBs don't push up and 2) Fabregas is weak defensively.

Completely disagree. Matic has made quite a lot of individual mistakes in his pressing that were just really poor judgement on his part and have absolutely nothing to do with anyone he's playing with. Check my analysis of the first two goals we conceded against Everton: http://forum.talkchelsea.net/topic/18782-analyzing-the-3-goals-conceded-at-goodison/

On Saturday again, in the first 25 minutes, on two occasions he made very weird pressing decisions very similar to his mistake in Everton's second goal. I'm not trying to single Matic out as others made a lot of mistakes in pressing as well, I'm just saying that mistakes like that have absolutely nothing to do with who you're playing along side, it's just poor judgement.

Matic and Fabregas both need Ramires...even against the likes of Swansea at home in my honest opinion.

Certainly didn't work against Everton. Unless you mean they need both Ramires and Oscar next to them like against Swansea. In which case, I'd say that I don't think that would work against any side that doesn't insist on playing from the back like Swansea, or in any game that we need proper width in attack in.

Way too early to come to any such conclusions. The new roles for the central midfielders still need some work to build chemistry and a lot of practice before we scrap them off as a failure, imo.

[Styles 9,790]

.... but he should learn how to do with it, because that's how we play now and he has the quality to deal with it, he just needs to hit the zone again.

Thing is I don't think Matic has the quality to deal with it on his own, hence the need for Ramires. We got the equaliser before half-time but Mourinho still brought Ramires on and the second half was INFINITELY better than the first.

You're right, Matic's passing was off but then it was off quite a bit last season as well and people didn't criticise him then. He plays risky passes, far more than most DMs, and I don't see that changing any time soon. His biggest problem right now is that he's being asked to cover waaaaaay too much ground, not an 85% pass rate.

[Starman60 1,343]

I'm not emotionally involved on Fabregas. I'm just... it's just... it's because... when he takes the ball... and he looks up... and he's perf... and he's amazing... and he's so smart... and his vision is unmatchable... and he's so damn cute now that wears blue... and he's so hungry to win... and he seems to fit so well in the team... it's just... I'm in love, okay?

There's a difference between emotionally involved and being completely, blindly, irrevocably in love with a player, right? Right?

Speaking seriously though... I didn't watch MNF - although I would have loved to, just forgot it was on so early, as I live watched MOTD Saturday and plan to continue to do so, so I can't say what Neville meant... What I can do say is that Cesc isn't the one responsible for us being dominated by Swansea's midfield. Matic had a mare in the first minutes, misplacing passes, being sloppy in some tackles and easily bypassed. Schurrle also misplaced a lot of passes, we didn't hold the ball well enough, we didn't press well, we couldn't set up the tempo. Oscar wasn't as effective tackling (IIRC he didn't have one single tackle during the match - or at least during the first half). Azpilicueta was caught a couple of times... so if someone wants to analyze what went wrong with our midfield in the first 30 minutes, they have to look at what the whole team did wrong. Schurrle, Matic, Cesc, Oscar, Azpilicueta and even Iva exposed one another a few times, they seemed to have no chemistry, not to know what they were doing and one individual mistake from one of them, put the next in line in trouble. Matic - who's our thermometer in terms of solidness in the midfield - has been starting the matches quite slow. I don't remember Burnley anymore because that's too long ago for my memory, but he had a bad first half against Leicester, Everton and Swansea getting better in the second and as the matches went on. When the rock behind Cesc is soft, Cesc is going to suffer. Am I blaming Matic for Cesc's shortcomings? No, I'm not, I just think Matic - and not Cesc - is the rock in our midfield and had it been Ramires, Oscar, or even Mikel by Matic's side they would have suffered from Matic's mistakes and poor football early in all those matches. Then it's no wonder when Matic got better during the match, so did the midfield in general.

Thing is whoever is going to play Cesc's role - and it should be clear we don't have even the slightest close replacement for him, the same way we don't for Matic - will probably have better defensive instincts than him, but they also won't have nearly the same vision and quality in the attack. I welcome his liability because of how productive he is. Remember the Mata discussion? He's a clear improvement defensively to Mata and he's faster (although not much) and he's stronger too (and also far more annoying for the opponents to deal with), but it doesn't mean he doesn't come with a price. He does - but it's a price worth paying. He isn't as weak defensively or physically as Mata was and he can offer nearly the same in terms of vision. He's an improvement to Mata in a system/team that desperately needed someone creative and with good vision to make up for our #10(s) limitations, but who wouldn't compromise defensively as much. Cesc can tackle, he's more physical and virile than Mata. He's just no defensive genius. The style changed and the reason why we pursued Cesc and brought him here is because we needed a player of his quality - vision, creation, technical wise. He fit the bill for what we needed and that's the new Chelsea and the new Chelsea won't ever be as solid defensively as last season's because that's not what we aim anymore. We've changed our profile as a team and being a little bit more exposed comes as a consequence.

And to answer your latest post, Matic's mistakes - the majority of them - had nothing to do with someone else coming to tackle with him. His decision making has been poor, his passing has been poor and he hasn't been anywhere near the tough guy he was last season for some streaks of time during the matches. Maybe Cesc's presence makes it worse for him, but many of his mistakes were passing rather marking. He set opponents up with misplaced passes or bad positioning. I think he'll improve because of himself, but also because the rest of the team will too. I'm not saying Cesc's presence doesn't make his life more difficult, it does, but he should learn how to deal with it, because that's how we play now and he has the quality to deal with it, he just needs to hit the zone again.

Barbara how could you !!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I thought you loved me???????????????? Seriously though a great article and a class analysis