Are we witnessing the permanent downfall of Manchester United as THE top club?

[The only place to be 11,313]

Spurs didn't spend 100M, They spent maybe 10M. You can't ignore the sale of Bale. And anyway, yes Spurs spend fairly large in comparison to other teams which is why they are battling for a place in Europe. The link between clubs that spend big and clubs that win is absolute. People like to think it's managers or effort that wins in football, but money is easily easily the most important element in success. United have a huge fan base and lots of money coming in so can spend big. As long as they can, they will be able to compete.

Money is important but I don't think United have been that astute in the market. We tend to get a lot more value from the market than they do, as do Arsenal and they don't quite have the unlimited funds City do. They've actually underinvested in key areas of their team for a while now and the chickens are coming home to roost. They have an ageing squad and a coach who is woefully under-qualified to either re-build the squad in his own philosophy or simply manage the squad in the way Fergie did last season.

I actually think some people are seriously underestimating just how much trouble they could be in.

United might be a massive name but the people running the ship are going to be asked to do things they've NEVER done before.

The Glazers are going to need to invest like they've NEVER done before.

Woodward is a rookie and needs to start being better in the transfer market (the Fellaini deal was a clusterfuck and should've seen him sacked on the spot).

Moyes needs to manage a massive squad, implement his own tactics and beat a top four team.

Young players like Smalling, Jones, Cleverley and Welbeck need to step up and take some of the strain.

Then you look at who is leaving. Evra, Ferdinand, Vidic - that's 3/4 of their starting defence from last season.

Van Persie will be 31 when the season starts. Even players like Valencia and Young will be 29 next season and their youth team is not the beast it once was.

So yes United are a massive name with a big revenue, but that is massively dependent on the success on the pitch in the long-term (short-term they can ride it out). Throw in the fact that Us, City and even Liverpool are getting stronger both on the pitch and off it (and both us and the Scousers are young teams) and United have a lot to worry about.

[Fulham Broadway 17,312]

The watershed moment will be if they dont finish in the top 4.

As the Wall Street share price and greenbacks tumble....the Glazers will shit their saggy Y fronts.

[TorontoChelsea 4,064]

Money is important but I don't think United have been that astute in the market. We tend to get a lot more value from the market than they do, as do Arsenal and they don't quite have the unlimited funds City do. They've actually underinvested in key areas of their team for a while now and the chickens are coming home to roost. They have an ageing squad and a coach who is woefully under-qualified to either re-build the squad in his own philosophy or simply manage the squad in the way Fergie did last season.

I actually think some people are seriously underestimating just how much trouble they could be in.

United might be a massive name but the people running the ship are going to be asked to do things they've NEVER done before.

The Glazers are going to need to invest like they've NEVER done before.

Woodward is a rookie and needs to start being better in the transfer market (the Fellaini deal was a clusterfuck and should've seen him sacked on the spot).

Moyes needs to manage a massive squad, implement his own tactics and beat a top four team.

Young players like Smalling, Jones, Cleverley and Welbeck need to step up and take some of the strain.

Then you look at who is leaving. Evra, Ferdinand, Vidic - that's 3/4 of their starting defence from last season.

Van Persie will be 31 when the season starts. Even players like Valencia and Young will be 29 next season and their youth team is not the beast it once was.

So yes United are a massive name with a big revenue, but that is massively dependent on the success on the pitch in the long-term (short-term they can ride it out). Throw in the fact that Us, City and even Liverpool are getting stronger both on the pitch and off it (and both us and the Scousers are young teams) and United have a lot to worry about.

They do, but I am saying that long term, these mistakes won't matter much. They are a mess right now, but if you have money, you can turn around teams very quickly. We had terrible transfers for a few years and were able to overcome them.. I see 2-3 bad years for United but they have a huge fan base and a lot of money so I can't see them not being contenders within a few years.

[bushman 2,043]

The watershed moment will be if they dont finish in the top 4.

As the Wall Street share price and greenbacks tumble....the Glazers will shit their saggy Y fronts.

Excuse me but do you honestly think Manures will finish in top four ? As of now, I do not know.

However, one thing I know, Liverpool or spurs will not crumble totally.

[HD3D 1,038]

but if you have money, you can turn around teams very quickly.

But why do you keep comparing them to us? The Glazers are not Abramovich. For them, Manchester United is a business with one sole purpose: to enrich their family. The Glazers would be happy if United was a mid table team as long as that didn't damage the brand and the club's shares, which it does.

You keep saying that a river of money will bring United back to the top and yes I do agree it could. I just don't believe that river of money will ever come, and if it does, I'm skeptical about how long it will last.

[TorontoChelsea 4,064]

But why do you keep comparing them to us? The Glazers are not Abramovich. For them, Manchester United is a business with one sole purpose: to enrich their family. The Glazers would be happy if United was a mid table team as long as that didn't damage the brand and the club's shares, which it does.

You keep saying that a river of money will bring United back to the top and yes I do agree it could. I just don't believe that river of money will ever come, and if it does, I'm skeptical about how long it will last.

It will come because the United brand which makes them money depends on success (CL, world tours, kits sold, etc...). Malcolm Glazer is worth 4.5BN or so so it's not as if they are going to be poor. They are still spending lots of money. They are not Rangers, they are a team that still spends money. The idea that they are going to fall apart forever because they having a bad season is ridiculous. A good manager with a plan could turn this team around in 1, maybe 2 years.

[Tomo 21,751]

Spurs didn't spend 100M, They spent maybe 10M. You can't ignore the sale of Bale. And anyway, yes Spurs spend fairly large in comparison to other teams which is why they are battling for a place in Europe. The link between clubs that spend big and clubs that win is absolute. People like to think it's managers or effort that wins in football, but money is easily easily the most important element in success. United have a huge fan base and lots of money coming in so can spend big. As long as they can, they will be able to compete.

Money does play a big part in the modern game but it doesn't buy team spirit, give the players mental toughness to see a task through and other key elements to create a winning machine. Look at QPR last season, their spending should have at the very least comfortably kept them up, yet they were gone by April.

Spending loads off money will get more wins due to individual quality (like with Hughes at City) but to create a winning machine? there's only so much money alone can aid that process ,it helps not deyning that, but put it this way, i don't think Ian Dowie could ever lead a team to a title even if he outspent his competition combined x 10.

[TorontoChelsea 4,064]

Money does play a big part in the modern game but it doesn't buy team spirit, give the players mental toughness to see a task through and other key elements to create a winning machine. Look at QPR last season, their spending should have at the very least comfortably kept them up, yet they were gone by April.

Spending loads off money will get more wins due to individual quality (like with Hughes at City) but to create a winning machine? there's only so much money alone can aid that process ,it helps not deyning that, but put it this way, i don't think Ian Dowie could ever lead a team to a title even if he outspent his competition combined x 10.

The spirit, mental toughness thing matters very little in the scheme of things. Hughes would have won with City eventually too had they kept him on. City spent 230M pounds in the two years after he left building the team they have now. Yes, there are outliers. Teams that spend money that don't do well for a year or two, teams that don't spend that have a few good years, but they are rare and short-term. It's very unromantic, but money equals success.

[Benches not the shed 77]

The spirit, mental toughness thing matters very little in the scheme of things. Hughes would have won with City eventually too had they kept him on. City spent 230M pounds in the two years after he left building the team they have now. Yes, there are outliers. Teams that spend money that don't do well for a year or two, teams that don't spend that have a few good years, but they are rare and short-term. It's very unromantic, but money equals success.

Sorry mate, I ain't having that.. Mark Hughes is a very average manager. He would have won jack shit.

On the subject of Uniteds fall from grace, which is great. It don't matter how much money you spend it don't guarantee nothing. United have to rebuild everywhere on the pitch, they have a few decent players and that is it. Moyes will be gone by christmas.

[manpe 10,861]

In order for United to live through this rebuilding process in a positive, tolerable manner, they need a manager who can get the best out of average players. Basically they need an Alex Ferguson, which they won't have. The other possible solution for them is to buy a bucketload of quality players and hope that Moysie can make them play together. However, how will they get those players if they miss out on Champions League? The difference between non-CL and CL is the difference between Marin and Hazard - huge. Moyes isn't exactly a magnet for world class players, the only reason why anyone would want to sign for them, is to play for the Man United brand and possibly insane wages. This brand will start losing its value if they keep missing out on CL football and keep sucking in the league, and they will not be able to afford those wages provided they will be paying Rooney alone 3 world class players wages (300K/pw was it?).

I don't know, it's difficult to see how they could get things back on track. Moyes will need to start being amazing all of a sudden and win matches from next season on. What are the chances of that happening? He's not a bad coach, but this pie might be too big for him to chew. I think us and City will be too powerful for them for years to come. I wouldn't dismiss Liverpool and Arsenal either, United's first big objective will be to break into top four once again.

[Laylabelle 9,534]

The stuggle as well once out the top 4 its ways to climb back into it.Like say miss out and attracting the type of players they usually get be harder.No Alex ether to be a bit of a factor...thats unless they win the thing...doubt it but we did and were crap in the league..hope not

[Tomo 21,751]

The spirit, mental toughness thing matters very little in the scheme of things. Hughes would have won with City eventually too had they kept him on. City spent 230M pounds in the two years after he left building the team they have now. Yes, there are outliers. Teams that spend money that don't do well for a year or two, teams that don't spend that have a few good years, but they are rare and short-term. It's very unromantic, but money equals success.

It took Mancini 3 years to win the league and that was by the skin off his teeth, Hughes would have took a lot longer.

Im not disagreeing with the bit that money helps but to build a consistent winning jaugernaught for me needs a WC manager, especially nowadays.

[HD3D 1,038]

Just got practically knocked out of the Champions League by the worst team in the tournament. I wonder how much of a hammering Bayern or Real Madrid would have given them...

It's scary to think how deep this club will sink if it insists on sticking with that clueless manager.

[zolayes 14,489]

sadly manure will be back ,,but its wonderful watching the cunts suffer

[Steve 10,227]

Just got practically knocked out of the Champions League by the worst team in the tournament. I wonder how much of a hammering Bayern or Real Madrid would have given them...

It's scary to think how deep this club will sink if it insists on sticking with that clueless manager.

They're not the worst team in the comp.

[Jase 43,479]

Even in our 'bad moment' under Ancelotti (second season) and AVB, it never got this bad for us.....

[zolayes 14,489]

They're not the worst team in the comp.

no but they have the worst fans cept maybe for the scousers ..... oh and Mill wall

.. and Leeds and of course The Turds from Gala

[didierforever 7,349]

I hope this united situation makes people see exactky what an ACHIEVEMENT it was to win 3 trophies in the last 2 years. 2011-12and 2012-13 were our worst years under roman. The squad was in transition and a disarray. Managers kept coming n goin. It was simply the players that kept us where we were. JT, LAMPS, CECH, COLE, DD, MATA. They were all so essential n important.

[zolayes 14,489]

im a little worried ,, If Manure drop out of CL they might concentrate on a Europa league

place then EVERYONE will want to play for them

[Hutcho 8,443]

As much as i want the Lol Utd to keep going and getting better and better. I would rather they sneak into europa next season so they have the awkward thursday night games than miss europe all together as there is no doubt they are gonna try and spend big.

I'm sure they will be back, but i doubt it will be with moyes, and we will enjoy the lol moyes period for as long as it lasts.