🇧🇷 Willian

[Barbara 15,149]

What am I missing here?

Oscar vs Willian (EPL)

Goals : 3 vs 1

Assists : 5 vs 1

Key passes per game : 1.7 vs 1.1

Shots per game : 3.1 vs 1.8

Neither is a particularly great attacking threat but one decent game from Willian doesn't override Oscar's obviously greater input thus far this season and there's only one winner there.

Then there's the defensive aspect:

Tackles: 2.3 vs 1.2

Clearances: 1.4 vs 0.2

I mean, Willian is good defensively, but the only edge he has on Oscar on both aspects is stamina and pace. Oscar's decision making isn't anything spectacular (except Costa and Cesc we don't have great decision makers) and he isn't the most decisive player either. The thing is if I had to rate Oscar on those I'd give him a 6.5, but I'd give Willian at most a 4. His decision making and decisiveness are pretty bad, one of the worst in the whole team, not only compared to Oscar. He offers many things in the team balance, but Oscar is not marginally better than Willian in terms of return, he's better by a safe margin.

I think at the end of the day the difference between them is that Oscar is quite smart. I've read quotes by Mourinho, Dunga, Fàbregas, Hazard, Neymar and many pundits praising Oscar for his intelligence and ability to read the game. If Willian was half good in that aspect, he could be our best player because he's way more talented than Oscar. But he lacks any ability to read the game properly, he lacks vision unless it's the obvious pass and he doesn't have the best football brains.

I still believe he'd be great in a less competitive league.

[Styles 9,790]

except Oscar still contributes more...

Oscar has better numbers. I still prefer Willian because I think he's a better ball-handler, smarter player and more versatile.

Whenever Oscar makes room to Mikel we should have someone playing instead of Willian. Having Mikel AND Willian in the same lineup could increase home accident rates with people infringing pain onto themselves out of frustration.

It worked perfectly fine the other night when they both helped the team win in one of the hardest away games of the season.

I don't know what's been so wonderful about him in the final third today, I think he improved and he contributed to how we dominated the final third, but he still made 8 bad decisions out of 10.

And one of Oscar's biggest contributions today - and many other times - was creating space for others, space that Willian wasted. I'm in no way saying Oscar was better - he wasn't - but I wish I could see this amazing player you see on Willian that should displace our player with more assists after Cesc and who still remembers how to score - not to mention key passes, chances created, passes in the final third % and even tackles.

Oscar has been superior to Willian in every single aspect you look at - stats and performance wise - throughout the season, but I suppose each of us have a preference, regardless of what's shown in the pitch.

There's only so much room for AMs who excel in defending and pressing rather than attacking and whether you want to admit or not, numbers and volume of play show that Oscar has been better than Willian on both leads. They should rotate imo.

I thought Willian made some perfectly good decisions today (couple of good shots and set-up Hazard too) - and some of his passing in the build-up was very good, he's a very smart player in possession in my opinion - but not everything he tried came off which is normal.

I don't even want to get into the vague 'creating space' thing that Oscar does (I see clearly how Costa creates space for the team, don't see it with Oscar to be honest) but Willian played better than Oscar today.

The elephant in the room is that Fabregas can also play CAM and he'd contribute more than just 'providing space'. That's ultimately what I want to see: Fabregas playing CAM. What happens with Oscar after that? I genuinely couldn't care less to be honest. Willian owns the RW until somebody better than him is bought in.

[Styles 9,790]

What am I missing here?

Oscar vs Willian (EPL)

Goals : 3 vs 1

Assists : 5 vs 1

Key passes per game : 1.7 vs 1.1

Shots per game : 3.1 vs 1.8

Neither is a particularly great attacking threat but one decent game from Willian doesn't override Oscar's obviously greater input thus far this season and there's only one winner there.

Which is my point - after that it comes down to personal preference. Obviously the numbers favour Oscar but personally I prefer Willian.

[Barbara 15,149]

Oscar has better numbers. I still prefer Willian because I think he's a better ball-handler, smarter player and more versatile.

It worked perfectly fine the other night when they both helped the team win in one of the hardest away games of the season.

I thought Willian made some perfectly good decisions today (couple of good shots and set-up Hazard too) - and some of his passing in the build-up was very good, he's a very smart player in possession in my opinion - but not everything he tried came off which is normal.

I don't even want to get into the vague 'creating space' thing that Oscar does (I see clearly how Costa creates space for the team, don't see it with Oscar to be honest) but Willian played better than Oscar today.

The elephant in the room is that Fabregas can also play CAM and he'd contribute more than just 'providing space'. That's ultimately what I want to see: Fabregas playing CAM. What happens with Oscar after that? I genuinely couldn't care less to be honest. Willian owns the RW until somebody better than him is bought in.

I like Cesc as #10 too, although it's only worth to play him there when we play teams parking the bus and we need a spark of creativity in our attack, something Oscar clearly lacks.

Willian owns our RW? LOL. He's been lucky André and Ramires have been injured and ill. At the form Ramires was early in the season, there was no way Willian would have started half the matches he did. If Ramires is displacing someone in the wing then you know they are nowhere impressive, far from it.

At the end of the day we all want Chelsea to succeed. So I hope Willian becomes at least half the player you seem to see in him.

Also if you can't see how Oscar intelligently creates space for others and how he has been getting better and better playing 1-2s with Hazard and Cesc, then there's nothing I can do in that aspect.

Everyone likes certain players better than others. I like Oscar better than Willian, you feel the opposite. Both of us are free to think as we please.

[DYC. 7,542]

Oscar's been definitely more decisive in the final third.

Also, a pretty telling stat:

TOTAL FORWARD PASSES

Fabregas - 977 passes

Hazard - 486

Oscar - 466

Willian - 249

Out of all our main AMs, Willian is the one who plays backwards passes the most. You can often see Hazard dribble past two defenders and give Willian the ball, Willian make a couple steps forward, wait, and then pass the ball back(or lose it). He's ineffective. Oscar is nowhere as effective and creative as Hazard and Fabregas, but he's definitely better than Willian.

This is what annoys me the most. He often takes so long to on the ball, only to play the ball to the side or backwards. I don't get that. Oscar and Hazard are far more adept at playing one-two's (they're both experts) and act a lot quicker on the ball. They're positional sense is also far superior to Willian's, who is pretty poor in this aspect sadly. Crucial elements for attacking players.

This Oscar vs Willian thing is idiotic though. 'Willian is not great but Oscar is terrible. Oscar is decent but Willian is awful'. Embarrassing.

They're both Chelsea players and they're both starters. Chelsea are top of the league and are one of the best sides in Europe. They're both part of the reason this team is in such a position.

[Styles 9,790]

This is what annoys me the most. He often takes so long to on the ball, only to play the ball to the side or backwards. I don't get that. Oscar and Hazard are far more adept at playing one-two's (they're both experts) and act a lot quicker on the ball. They're positional sense is also far superior to Willian's, who is pretty poor in this aspect sadly. Crucial elements for attacking players.

This Oscar vs Willian thing is idiotic though. 'Willian is not great but Oscar is terrible. Oscar is decent but Willian is awful'. Embarrassing.

They're both Chelsea players and they're both starters. Chelsea are top of the league and are one of the best sides in Europe. They're both part of the reason this team is in such a position.

What's really embarrassing for me is seeing one player derided constantly for not being creative enough and then excuses being made for another.

Even when Willian plays well we have to endure the "well only by his standards!" and "what 'bout that one pass, eh?!" nonsense and it's absolutely pathetic.

[Rom2013 446]

The better numbers of Oscar are a lie. In reality last season Willian was better than Oscar in almost everything, just scored less 4 goals but was a better tackler, did more key passes, did more assists per minute, did also more interceptions and dribled more than Oscar. Tomorrow I put here the numbers.

In the last year and a half in absolute values Willian playing a lot less minutes than Oscar did more key passes, created more chances...

When you talk about the lack of quality of Willian in the final third... you can't do it without questioning the lack of quality of Oscar in that same aspect. Is that simple.

Many of the people that here demand more from WIllian are the same that were saying every week how increadible Oscar is. In the past 7 games Oscar was awful and you see nothing about Oscar on here... but every week they have something to say about Willian, and before this period the increadible OScar was a complete lie.

Now Oscar creates spaces... at first he was defending more because of Fabregas.... now that Oscar can't do the defensive work aswell, now he creates spaces... at the end of the season we will see how well he did. Last season he started his vacations 4 months before the others,,, but on this forum that doesn't matter.

[DYC. 7,542]

What's really embarrassing for me is seeing one player derided constantly for not being creative enough and then excuses being made for another.

Even when Willian plays well we have to endure the "well only by his standards!" and "what 'bout that one pass, eh?!" nonsense and it's absolutely pathetic.

I'm not getting into the thing. Both players get plenty of stick (I just saw a post of you calling Oscar irrelevant, quite disappointing Styles). Even Fabregas, who has been excellent, isn't allowed to have a bad game. It's never good enough and I've grown quite tired of it. There's too much focus on the negative.

As for today, I thought both Oscar and Willian were good though unspectacular. Oscar was unlucky not to get a goal from that free-kick and Willian was unlucky not to get an assist after that Hazard chance. But I don't like how one is constantly linked to the other. Evaluate them individually, don't constantly bring up the other up, especially to make one look worse. That's retarded.

Chels produced a level of attacking football in the first half you don't get to see very often, with two attacking players on the pitch some deem inadequate. Quite impressive if you ask me.

[Styles 9,790]

I'm not getting into the thing. Both players get plenty of stick (I just saw a post of you calling Oscar irrelevant, quite disappointing Styles). Even Fabregas, who has been excellent, isn't allowed to have a bad game. It's never good enough and I've grown quite tired of it. There's too much focus on the negative.

As for today, I thought both Oscar and Willian were both good though unspectacular. Oscar was unlucky not to get a goal from that free-kick and Willian was unlucky not to get an assist after that Hazard chance. But I don't like how one is constantly linked to the other. Evaluate them individually, don't constantly bring up the other up, especially to make one look worse. That's retarded.

Chels produced a level of attacking football in the first half you don't get to see very often, with two attacking players on the pitch some deem inadequate. Quite impressive if you ask me.

To be fair, that was just a shit joke. Agreed, though, and I'll tone it down - I'm enjoying the season and have no real complaints to be honest.

[Cescy 40]

What's really embarrassing for me is seeing one player derided constantly for not being creative enough and then excuses being made for another.

Even when Willian plays well we have to endure the "well only by his standards!" and "what 'bout that one pass, eh?!" nonsense and it's absolutely pathetic.

Maybe some of the criticisms of Willian's performances are unfair, but why not respond to those criticisms directly and have a constructive discussion, instead of trashing one of our other players?

[Stats 7,146]

How I see it with Willian and Oscar is how I would compare it with Silva and Mata tbh. Mata will probably score more goals and make assists over a season but Silva does more on the pitch and is a better player. Oscar has better stats than Willian but for me Willian is just a better player. He offers more than Oscar imo and when the team is not playing well I feel confident in Willian bringing about a chance out of nothing. Yes, he needs to improve his play in the final third but for me is the better player. I am a few here who think Willian is a very valuable player for us regardless of his scoring rates. Oh yeah and Mourinho too

[Miguelito 459]

Anytime he has the ball, I just can't get excited. I automatically know that we won't score when he has it. It's sad really. Once the ball touches his feet, the attack is usually killed. So, so frustrating and honestly a little embarrassing. I find myself yelling at the tv more at him than anyone else.

And just like everyone else can see, tactically/defensively he is just brilliant

[Gilvorak 3,734]

Oscar is infinitely better than Willian. Look at the first time passes he was giving in that 1st half for example, that takes incredible skill and vision. His individual game has progressed every season while Willian has barely improved from last year.

We saw glimpses of Oscar's goalscoring potential in the 12-13 CL season and the first half of last years PL. This season he's taken his creativity not just in his final ball but general play to a level few of his ever envisaged. His direct set piece taking ability has also come along over the past couple of months. He's not the perfect player by any means but you can see gradual development in his game while Willian is still the same old player.

Will has a significant advantage in ball carrying ability and retention skills but I think as Oscar continues to develop physically so will his retention skills.

[Shakez 755]

We all know who understands nothing about football. It's been proved over and over again...

Moving on...

At least this whole conversation put light on something I missed. I had no idea Willian had 10 assists last year... how come people say he evolved this season? Of course, he's more adapted to the league, but as a sub most part of the season he had 10 assists - which I think is impressive in a first season (that might be way I defended him so much last season).

Now he's been starting nearly every match we play and he has two assists. If that doesn't show how frustrating, ineffective, lost, useless, and downright bad he's been in the final third choices and execution, I don't know what does.

I do recognize and praise him for his stamina, energy, work rate, but he's an AM he has to offer more to the actual attack.

Oscar has always been highly criticized around here - and much of the criticism has been fair and I agree - and the the main criticism was that how he creates nothing for us as an AM/#10. Willian gets away with much worse return in the attack... I know the fact that Oscar led Mata to be dropped and then offloaded is what irritated people the most, but as limited as he can be, Oscar has been offering more than Willian in the attack consistently (except during his terrible second half of season earlier this year).

Willian must improve, we can't have an AM that starts nearly all our matches in the season, to have only two assists and a very low number of chances created - at least chances created that matter, as I particularly hate how sloppy that stat can be.

Some really childish remarks in there, but two can play this game.

You often state that statistics aren't everything (mostly when defending your favorite players) but you still cling on these stats to criticize certain players.

You also say it was Oscar that led too Mata's departure, but it's very apparent that wasn't the primary reason. Schürrle, KDB, and Mata are arguably all more of an attacking threat than both Oscar and Willian. Mourinho obviously knows this but still allowed KDB and Mata to leave. Schürrle rarely even gets a game in. Even now that he is seemingely fit, he refuses to rotate him in against a weak team. Oscar was partly responsible for the Juan Mata departure, but it's funny that Mourinho rarely played him last year against the big teams. Opting for Ramires and Willian in almost every big game encounter (with massive succes). The 2 players you probably hate the most. Where they a consistent attacking threat then and now?? The answer is no, but they offer that extra cover and balance Mourinho teams need.

Heck, Mourinho didn't even start Oscar against a team like Stoke. Hence they are a physical side. But alot of big teams are, i wouldn't be at all surprised he drops Oscar again when we play the big boy's in the Champions League.

Willian clearly lacks in the final third, but he offers alot more in the build-up than a player like André Schürrle ever could. Schürrle was a shiny club buy. The deal was as good as done even before Mourinho came back. Mourinho didn't like his options when we had KDB, Mata and Schürrle and opted for a last minute buy in Willian. A player that became a regular without multiple assist/goals to boast with. Displacing said players and your precious Oscar in big games.

The team play's better with Willian in the team, that is a fact. People in the team like him, he frees up Ivanovic to bomb forward, can interchange to any position during the match. Resulting in defenders not knowing who they have to cover, is very fluid in the 1 touch play. And most of all keeps defensive focus for 90 mins+ and the ability to break up play without tiring.

Willian isn't the second coming of jesus obviously and we can surely upgrade from him (like a certain fella called Marco Reus). But a player like him will always have place in a Mourinho team, whatever the role.

Willian is probably even going to be here for another couple of years (improved contract talks are ongoing right now). I just hope you will change your broken record of saying he's 0 intelligence player who offers nothing to the team every few pages ( we get it by now). You clearly don't now as much off football as you think you know.

[MrBlueGuy 1,552]

The thing about him is that I think we all have to accept he is that winger that is probably gonna get 5 goals max for every season he is here from now on, unless we change our style of play or he undergoes a Ronaldo transformation or something. I hope he can directly contribute more assists though. For some reason I am imagining him as Valencia for MU a few years ago when he was quite good but Willian is not a one trick pony like Valencia was.

If we can upgrade him for someone like Reus or Bale I would definitely do it, Schurrle is not that much better either. Still though he is good so it would have to be someone like Bale, Reus, James...etc or otherwise no point selling him and getting another similar winger who had a decent season. A couple of years ago I thought he got the potential to be better than someone like Grizemann but now it is clear who is better.

[Barbara 15,149]

Some really childish remarks in there, but two can play this game.

You often state that statistics aren't everything (mostly when defending your favorite players) but you still cling on these stats to criticize certain players.

You also say it was Oscar that led too Mata's departure, but it's very apparent that wasn't the primary reason. Schürrle, KDB, and Mata are arguably all more of an attacking threat than both Oscar and Willian. Mourinho obviously knows this but still allowed KDB and Mata to leave. Schürrle rarely even gets a game in. Even now that he is seemingely fit, he refuses to rotate him in against a weak team. Oscar was partly responsible for the Juan Mata departure, but it's funny that Mourinho rarely played him last year against the big teams. Opting for Ramires and Willian in almost every big game encounter (with massive succes). The 2 players you probably hate the most. Where they a consistent attacking threat then and now?? The answer is no, but they offer that extra cover and balance Mourinho teams need.

Heck, Mourinho didn't even start Oscar against a team like Stoke. Hence they are a physical side. But alot of big teams are, i wouldn't be at all surprised he drops Oscar again when we play the big boy's in the Champions League.

Willian clearly lacks in the final third, but he offers alot more in the build-up than a player like André Schürrle ever could. Schürrle was a shiny club buy. The deal was as good as done even before Mourinho came back. Mourinho didn't like his options when we had KDB, Mata and Schürrle and opted for a last minute buy in Willian. A player that became a regular without multiple assist/goals to boast with. Displacing said players and your precious Oscar in big games.

The team play's better with Willian in the team, that is a fact. People in the team like him, he frees up Ivanovic to bomb forward, can interchange to any position during the match. Resulting in defenders not knowing who they have to cover, is very fluid in the 1 touch play. And most of all keeps defensive focus for 90 mins+ and the ability to break up play without tiring.

Willian isn't the second coming of jesus obviously and we can surely upgrade from him (like a certain fella called Marco Reus). But a player like him will always have place in a Mourinho team, whatever the role.

Willian is probably even going to be here for another couple of years (improved contract talks are ongoing right now). I just hope you will change your broken record of saying he's 0 intelligence player who offers nothing to the team every few pages ( we get it by now). You clearly don't now as much off football as you think you know.

Childish? Unless you meant my comment towards Rom2013, I think his views of football goes against what most people agree as being basics. The amount of posts he writes that nobody can even try to agree with is too much to count. Let's call his view of football unorthodox then.

I already said many times I really like stats - when they're contextualized, I used to write statistical articles for the forum and I loved it and did you miss the parts where I said that PERFORMANCES and VOLUME OF PLAY in addition to his stats is what convinces me Oscar has been offering way more than Willian has? Or did you skip that post? If a conversation is going, at least read all the points raised before joining it. They have the same workrate - Oscar even more actually, Oscar plays 1-2s with Cesc and Hazard very often, he passes the ball forward, he tries to be more objective, he takes more shots. This is all about him as a player, it's not stats saying me anything.

I love it how you guys put a label on someone and when they say something that isn't according to that label you call THEIR bluff (not yours who has no business deciding what a person likes or dislikes). I said many times in the Hazard discussion last week - to which I'm still waiting Greyco and everyone who agreed with him to answer me who's the best defensive player between Cesc and Eden - that when contextualized stats are great. They can tell a lot of lies if you don't look them closely. Now how can # of assists and goals lie?

Chances created is the most misleading stat in the game imo, I stated as much in the post you quoted because whoever makes a pass before a player takes a shot is counted as a chance created. Many times it's a nonchalant pass, to a player that carries the ball a long distance and then take a nonsense shot. That's not creating a chance here nor in hell. I also have a problem with dribbles and take ons. A player can have a thousand of those and create absolutely nothing for the team. It's all dandy and fancy but useless if it doesn't produce anything - and before you and some other fellow come saying anything I'm implying it, that's not the case with Hazard. Hazard has the dribbles, but also objectivity - something he improved a lot compared to last season.

I didn't say Oscar led Mata to be offloaded, I said people were irritated by it. In their eyes it was Oscar's fault because he moved Mata to the bench. At the end of the day Mata didn't fit Mourinho's system, whereas Oscar did. That's why he was sold with great profit for the club. Ever since then Oscar has been overly criticized and it took a long while before people stopped mentioning Mata a couple of times in every page on Oscar's thread. If you weren't here, or don't remember, I can't help, but it did happen. Some people even seem to resent Oscar because of it when it's not his fault at all.

and get your facts straight, mate, I don't hate any Chelsea player. Some of them really frustrate me and I don't give a fuck who Mourinho plays in the big games as long as we win. Unlike many people around the world, I don't support a club because of a player. I support players because of the club. It doesn't mean it's a blind support where I don't criticize them or the manager. I do when I feel like doing it. Willian is a frustrating player, until he stops being I won't change my opinion, but maybe you should read my last post in the subject where I said we all wish both players (Oscar and Willian) to succeed because they're Chelsea players. I got over my HATE for Cesc the moment that pic of him holding the blue shirt in a hotel room in Brazil came out. Wherever they keep the speculation threads of players we signed you'll be able to find a couple of posts by me showing how much I hated Cesc Fàbregas. You may hate players that play for the team you support, but don't make the assumption about others.

I couldn't disagree more about your views about Schurrle, Oscar and Willian. Oscar won't play the toughest physical games. I have no problem with that. I have no problem when Mourinho doesn't play Oscar, I love Oscar, I love Cesc, I love Eden and I'm not going to deny I love them more than I love others - but I don't love any of them more than I love Chelsea. I've wanted shitty players like Torres to be sold, it makes me sigh (in a bad way) that a player like Willian will continue to be part of the squad (I can definitely see a contract renew coming) and occupy a spot that should be occupied by someone much better than him. Others think the same about Oscar. It all comes down to preference. But if Ramires was replaced - even if forced by injury - maybe so will Willian. Both are supposedly on their peaks, both are supposedly playing the best they could whereas players like Oscar and Schurrle still have a lot to develop and grow and hopefully they will - another fact people continue to ignore. Oscar is 23, Willian is 26.

If you think the team plays better with Willian, good for you. Just don't make it a statement because it's a subjective matter. If I think my precious Oscar makes the team play better, it's also only my opinion. I said more than once that we should rotated both players, because having both in the team can be frustrating sometimes. Sorry if I kicked your puppy somewhere... it wasn't the goal, but your post was cute, lol.

And when I need someone to tell me how much about football I understand, I'll come to you, master, though tbh I don't see it happening. I'm not here for validation.

edit: my 'love' for Cesc weeks before he was signed for us

lol1

lol 2

and then my definite post in the subject

you know how much I don't rate Ramires technically when I'm willing to accept Fiberglass as his replacement...

There are three players I just hate in the football world: Dani Alves, Sergio Busquets and Cesc Fabregas... but I'm willing to swallow my pride and self-respect and support this SOB if it means Ramires hits the bench.

I like Ramires as a guy, but as a footballer, I'm fed up with his limitations and how he messes up our attacks and his own tackles 3 seconds after regaining possession.

Bring Cunt Fiberglass if that's what it takes to get rid of Ramires in the starting XI

In a Brazilian forum I was much more 'colorful' on my feelings about him. Now look my signature.

gotta admit I had many laughs now re-reading the early days of the speculation thread. LOL. The few brave of you - especially Thomas, MrExcalibur100 and LDN blue - defending the transfer from day one are some smart lads Actually if it wasn't for Thomas' passion defending him as a player and showing what a big player he was, it would have taken longer for me to warm up to the idea. So I guess thanks are in order, Skip

[Beepu 1,714]

He's not a shiny player like Hazard (his transfer fee was) but he works hard and gives balance to the team. Obviously someone who can work hard and has cutting edge would be welcomed *cough cough Reus* but he's no where as bad as some are making him out to be. Opinions will vary especially in forums, but it's quite annoying when people believe in their own hype and becomes a know it all.

[BleedsBlue 1,549]

I think people's fascination of Reus makes them critical of Willian. Also the fact that we compare him with Hazard on the other wing role makes its more unfair.

Definitely not worth 30m but the price tag isn't his fault.

[iseah100 5,612]

I think people's fascination of Reus makes them critical of Willian. Also the fact that we compare him with Hazard on the other wing role makes its more unfair.

Definitely not worth 30m but the price tag isn't his fault.

Reus is amazing.

[MrBlueGuy 1,552]

Anyone kind of fed up with his constant non-productivity? It has got to a point where I want to see him trying to score or assists in at least double figure, not fucking running around defending for majority of the matches. Think he is basically becoming last season Ramires, good player to have off the bench but shouldn't be good enough to be starting for us. Need a Reus/Bale player next summer.