Oscar

[Special Juan 27,439]

"For just 28M"

I would of been happy with half of that

[Pizy 18,419]

I predict that this will be yet another situation where the new manager will "try to get the best" out of Oscar and we aren't even thinking about selling him at this point.

[Fernando 6,484]

On 2/19/2016 at 2:27 PM, Pizy said:

Think the Mikel comparison is valid. Oscar will continue to do just enough to be kept around but I doubt he'll ever do anything that makes him a crucial, must be in the first XI player.

 

Too bad we could not sold him to China for some good money. Instead have to settle for less in juventus.... 

[Tomo 21,733]

10 hours ago, chelseafan26 said:

Are not the problems that Arsenal faced in those years same or at the very least "very similar" to what we are facing right now? Porous midfields, Higher turnovers, Mid getting bullied off the park, trying to score that perfect goal etc etc.

Cant just be a co-incidence.

Lets be honest, while cesc can play his quarter-backish passes brilliantly, his ball retention is tight spaces is a shambles. Moreover, for someone heralded as the king of creativity, cesc really does not create much if you take out his long balls which have a very low conversion rate. Then is the point of his set piece deliveries. And finally we come to his defensive workrate and ability. While a lot of stats show that cesc actually covers a lot of ground (which frankly i have a hard time in believing), I think its due to the fact that he is continously "Jogging". To be fair to cesc, I dont think his jogging and his sprint speeds would be that different. I see a lot of it in RLC too. He keeps on Jogging and then puts in a half hearted tackle, only to be easily passed up by the opposition attacker. Since RLC is currently playing as a no.10, this flaw is not getting highlighted. Another thing is while cesc's long balls create our best chances of the matches, they also result 90% of the times in returning the possession back to the opposition defence/GK. 

Hence, why I said that one of the main culprits for arsenal/chelsea's defensive frailities and attacking deficiency is cesc.

Arsenals problems are deep ridden with Wenger, he is clueless and can't adapt to the modern times, same mistakes season after season, and notice how quiet he is these days about the money thing now Atletico won the La Liga and Leicester are on the brink winning the Premier League. Arsenal in the last ten years could have had anyone, even Messi, and they wouldn't have won either of the big two.

Also it can't be a coincidence that Arsenal played their best football of post 2006 with Cesc and we play our best football since post double with him also.

Yes Cesc has his weaknesses, yes he is not very good if you press him and nullify his space, but neither is Pirlo, who like Cesc is a creative midfielder with no real pace and athleticism, difference is, Pirlo has played under manager's that set teams up to utilise Andreas strengths and protect him from his weaknesses, Gatusso, Ambrosini, Vidal, Pogba, Marchisio amounsgt other's were there to offer what Pirlo couldn't and allow him to do what he does, at Arsenal or Chelsea Cesc never got that level off protection, because while I'm not denying he has his flaws the inroads he creates with even a centre metre of space is inhuman and that makes a real difference against teams that sit deep.

[Tomo 21,733]

10 hours ago, chelseafan26 said:

On the other hand, KDB scored 2 out of city's 3 goals to take his team to the semis of the Champions League against a team that absolutely annihilated us home and away. 

I seriously dont think that some people understand the magnitude of Jose's "mistakes" and "failures" in his 2nd term. He has single handedly set us back atleast 5 years. 

Massive exaggeration, yes he fucked up with De Bruyne, yes he fucked up this season an deserrd the sack, but 5 years, really?

[DYC. 7,542]

Just now, Tomo said:

Arsenals problems are deep ridden with Wenger, he is clueless and can't adapt to the modern times, same mistakes season after season, and notice how quiet he is these days about the money thing now Atletico won the La Liga and Leicester are on the brink winning the Premier League. Arsenal in the last ten years could have had anyone, even Messi, and they wouldn't have won either of the big two.

Also it can't be a coincidence that Arsenal played their best football of post 2006 with Cesc and we play our best football since post double with him also.

Yes Cesc has his weaknesses, yes he is not very good if you press him and nullify his space, but neither is Pirlo, who like Cesc is a creative midfielder with no real pace and athleticism, difference is, Pirlo has played under manager's that set teams up to utilise Andreas strengths and protect him from his weaknesses, Gatusso, Ambrosini, Vidal, Pogba, Marchisio amounsgt other's were there to offer what Pirlo couldn't and allow him to do what he does, at Arsenal or Chelsea Cesc never got that level off protection, because while I'm not denying he has his flaws the inroads he creates with even a centre metre of space is inhuman and that makes a real difference against teams that sit deep.

I don't like the Pirlo-Fabregas comparison. Pirlo sits in front of defence. Cesc is an offensive-minded centre midfielder. That alone creates a completely different tactical set-up and necessary support. Not to mention the different leagues.

Pirlo is a player who has been decisive in big games and tournaments for club and country. A crucial component in the teams he's been involved in, title-winning teams. A legend in Milan colours in his younger years and a Juve legend as a veteran.

Cesc was the star of an Arsenal team that always came up short. He moved to the big time when he joined Barca but failed to meet the expectations, becoming a 12th man. And he's always been somewhat of a super sub for Spain. Another 12th man role. At the highest level, he came up short.

They're not the same level of player. Cesc is very good but he's not great.

[chelseafan26 293]

6 minutes ago, Tomo said:

Arsenals problems are deep ridden with Wenger, he is clueless and can't adapt to the modern times, same mistakes season after season, and notice how quiet he is these days about the money thing now Atletico won the La Liga and Leicester are on the brink winning the Premier League. Arsenal in the last ten years could have had anyone, even Messi, and they wouldn't have won either of the big two.

Also it can't be a coincidence that Arsenal played their best football of post 2006 with Cesc and we play our best football since post double with him also.

Yes Cesc has his weaknesses, yes he is not very good if you press him and nullify his space, but neither is Pirlo, who like Cesc is a creative midfielder with no real pace and athleticism, difference is, Pirlo has played under manager's that set teams up to utilise Andreas strengths and protect him from his weaknesses, Gatusso, Ambrosini, Vidal, Pogba, Marchisio amounsgt other's were there to offer what Pirlo couldn't and allow him to do what he does, at Arsenal or Chelsea Cesc never got that level off protection, because while I'm not denying he has his flaws the inroads he creates with even a centre metre of space is inhuman and that makes a real difference against teams that sit deep.

Firstly, I have to disagree with us playing our best football post double with cesc in the team. NOT TRUE. Mate, I am not sure what you have been watching but 4 months of good football is not worth 1 and a half year of shit on a stick football week in and week out. Its actually been 1 and a half year since I saw good attacking football been played from this club. Since that day at swans. No mate, I just cant agree with this. Neither can i agree with "inroads he creates with even a centre m "etre of space is inhuman and that makes a real difference against teams that sit deep.". When was the last time that cesc actually "unlocked" a deep defence. On the contrary, for me, his USP seems to be a defence that plays a high line and he can put his inch perfect long balls behind that defence for costa to run onto. I feel there is a "myth" surrounding cesc actually being good against deep defences. Look at us. If anything we have become worse against  deep defences in my opinion.  

With all due respect to Pirlo, if Juventus were an EPL team, Pirlo would have been eaten alive week in and week out. This Juventus or the one for the last 3 years is heads and shoulders above anyother Serie A team. But try doing that in PL, and they would get murdered. You cant have players who need bodyguards in the center of the pitch. You just cant. 

Does the baggage that cesc gets with himself worth it? For me, NO. attackers attack, Defenders defend and Midfielders need to do both. This lopsided Jose mourinho approach of playing cesc in the center of the pitch so that he can attack and then playing oscar as a defensive no.10 so that he can provide "balance" (I loathe Pat Nevin for starting this "Oscar provides immense balance Bullshit") and then playing willian so he can provide even more cover. Yes, attacking players have to do their share of defence. I have seen neymar and suarez do that, as has Bale and Robben and Ribery. But first and foremost, they are attackers. 

While I agree with you about Wenger and as much as I would like to ridicule him, this is not about wenger. Jose tried to provide as much cover as possible for Cesc and what happened? We are sitting 10th in the League and have been outclassed multiple times by PSG in CL. Hell, we have been outclassed by 10 men PSG at the Bridge. Cesc is someone who disrupts the balance of a team. He is someone who takes away more than he gives to the team. In all honesty

Jose would play Zouma/Mikel/Ramires and Matic just to give cesc freedom. We tried a lot of that this season too. Result - defensive capitulation. I remember those arsenal teams when even 4-0 leads were not safe enough and how similar it is to us. 

While I agree that cesc has his advantages, his defensive liabilities make him an expendable. We were a european supergiant with a midfield of lampard-makelele-essien. None of them being creative geniuses. 

[chelseafan26 293]

34 minutes ago, Tomo said:

Massive exaggeration, yes he fucked up with De Bruyne, yes he fucked up this season an deserrd the sack, but 5 years, really?

I dont expect hazard to be here next season. CL football is no longer a surety, the title a distant dream. 

From a roster boasting of a future Ballon dor Hazard, a no.10 with "Potential" Oscar, an actual creative genius Mata, a World class potential player Kdb, a robben-ish Schurrle, (and like you pointed out a very young bunch), next season we might be left with Willian-no-product, a 30 year old hopeless headless chicken, and a player who in his 320 minute audition seemed more suitable for a career as a ball boy than a footballer (i am not going to include oscar in this list because even the thought of him being here next season sened a chill down my spine). Our deep mid is as shambolic if not more as it was 3 years ago when Jose came in. Our defence is literally the same but 3 years older and worser. We would need 200mil euros to simply get players who can make us top4 level competitive. And finally we lost a 20 goal a season PL proven striker for the sake of torres, ba and etoo. So yes, for me he has pushed back 5 years. Financially as well as roster quality wise.

[petre.ispirescu 4,928]

Times reports he'll be shown the door at the end of the season. Music to my ears.

[Hybrid Angel 2,130]

6 minutes ago, petre.ispirescu said:

Times reports he'll be shown the door at the end of the season. Music to my ears.

Addition by subtraction.

[Pizy 18,419]

9 minutes ago, petre.ispirescu said:

Times reports he'll be shown the door at the end of the season. Music to my ears.

The positive feeling of us finally wanting rid of Oscar is overshadowed by their article saying we'll still be using the "one in, one out" transfer rule and that new signings must be funded by player sales. Just fuck off with that! No way we're getting back to challenging for the league with that business model unless we're selling 3-4 of our best players.

[petre.ispirescu 4,928]

30 minutes ago, Pizy said:

The positive feeling of us finally wanting rid of Oscar is overshadowed by their article saying we'll still be using the "one in, one out" transfer rule and that new signings must be funded by player sales. Just fuck off with that! No way we're getting back to challenging for the league with that business model unless we're selling 3-4 of our best players.

We'll have to get used to this I'm afraid because of the new stadium. It's impossible to pump almost 600m into a new ground and at the same time stay competitive on the market like before. I don't think it's going to be "one in, out out" ONLY, maybe Chelsea will make extra funds available as well, but there will be certain limits to the transfer budget and the salary cap for sure.

If Chelsea's view on "best players" is Oscar, Ivanovic, Cahill, Mikel then I'm all for selling them and bring new blood.

[Pizy 18,419]

4 hours ago, petre.ispirescu said:

We'll have to get used to this I'm afraid because of the new stadium. It's impossible to pump almost 600m into a new ground and at the same time stay competitive on the market like before. I don't think it's going to be "one in, out out" ONLY, maybe Chelsea will make extra funds available as well, but there will be certain limits to the transfer budget and the salary cap for sure.

If Chelsea's view on "best players" is Oscar, Ivanovic, Cahill, Mikel then I'm all for selling them and bring new blood.

Meh. Knowing our club recently they'll sell Hazard, Courtois, and Costa and keep the likes of Ivanovic, Oscar, Cahill etc around until they doom another season for us.

[robsblubot 3,529]

1 hour ago, Pizy said:

Meh. Knowing our club recently they'll sell Hazard, Courtois, and Costa and keep the likes of Ivanovic, Oscar, Cahill etc around until they doom another season for us.

Can only sell the players who can be sold.

oscar used to be easier to sell, but getting increasingly more difficult.

others don't have any market value, so they stay.

[Special Juan 27,439]

Couldn't fucking lace Coutinho's boots, and that isn't based on tonight but a long period.

Coutinho is dynamic, Oscar is chronic. 

[Tomo 21,733]

3 minutes ago, Special Juan said:

Couldn't fucking lace Coutinho's boots, and that isn't based on tonight but a long period.

Coutinho is dynamic, Oscar is chronic. 

Coutinhos having his one in ten then I'm guessing?

[Special Juan 27,439]

6 minutes ago, Tomo said:

Coutinhos having his one in ten then I'm guessing?

Oscar's had his 1 in 100 v Juventus.

[Tomo 21,733]

2 minutes ago, Special Juan said:

Oscar's had his 1 in 100 v Juventus.

Not disputing that