Politics & Stuff

[jasonlol 154]

  On 17/07/2014 at 22:37, Mohammed Seif said:

Not a single person here denied Israel to defend itself. But you have to be level headed. Hamas "rockets" are useless without your iron dome. They are even more useless with your iron dome. It would have been understandable if you carried out operations to take out their leaders specifically. For crying out loud one Khaled Mishal is living safely in Qatar and all you can do is take it out in the Palestinian civilians. That says a lot about the effectiveness and morality of the the Israeli military.

I think I understand your post, but I have a different philosophy to the morality of war. As a country your main job is to protect the rights of your individuals and if say a group like hamas fires from a civilian area on your civilians(no matter how strong or not the rocket is), it is indeed nice to avoid casaulties but if you do fire back the blood the casaulites is on their hands since they were the aggressors. Now I know on this thread there will be disagreements as to who fired first blah blah, but I was more saying this to illustrate how I see the morality of war.

[Mohammed Seif 1,451]

  On 17/07/2014 at 23:54, jasonlol said:

I think I understand your post, but I have a different philosophy to the morality of war. As a country your main job is to protect the rights of your individuals and if say a group like hamas fires from a civilian area on your civilians(no matter how strong or not the rocket is), it is indeed nice to avoid casaulties but if you do fire back the blood the casaulites is on their hands since they were the aggressors. Now I know on this thread there will be disagreements as to who fired first blah blah, but I was more saying this to illustrate how I see the morality of war.

Seriously? You are justifying that 80% of the dead are civilians and only 20% "might be" Hamas. Even the Some of the Israelis here on this thread don't like that. That demonstrates how incompetent a military is. It shows they can not pick their targets with their latest state of the art technology. Not to mention, it raises other questions about the intentions of the attack mate.

[jasonlol 154]

  On 18/07/2014 at 00:04, Mohammed Seif said:

Seriously? You are justifying that 80% of the dead are civilians and only 20% "might be" Hamas. Even the Some of the Israelis here on this thread don't like that. That demonstrates how incompetent a military is. It shows they can not pick their targets with their latest state of the art technology. Not to mention, it raises other questions about the intentions of the attack mate.

I doubt the 80-20 ratio but even if true; yes, blood still on hands of aggressor (hamas in this case). If IDF has Intel on a certain building(storage of weapons or w/e), its their responsibility to defend their civilians. Tragic as it sounds.. next time don't vote terrorists(they are fighting egypt to!) in.

[Mohammed Seif 1,451]

  On 18/07/2014 at 00:13, jasonlol said:

I doubt the 80-20 ratio but even if true; yes, blood still on hands of aggressor (hamas in this case). If IDF has Intel on a certain building(storage of weapons or w/e), its their responsibility to defend their civilians. Tragic as it sounds.. next time don't vote terrorists(they are fighting egypt to!) in.

Don't doubt, just read the UN reports and the American news regarding the civilian casualties. And go back and read the thread, no one votes for Hamas. I think I know much more about what is going on in Egypt than you do. Simply because the western media does not report much. And no, the blood is not on Hamas, it is as equally on Hamas as it is on the IDF.

[jasonlol 154]

  On 18/07/2014 at 00:25, Mohammed Seif said:

Don't doubt, just read the UN reports and the American news regarding the civilian casualties. And go back and read the thread, no one votes for Hamas. I think I know much more about what is going on in Egypt than you do. Simply because the western media does not report much. And no, the blood is not on Hamas, it is as equally on Hamas as it is on the IDF.

im not accusing you of supporting hamas(im well aware of your correct opposition to such a group). and yes you do know more about egypt than I do, and we will just have to disagree on last point. Like the way I see it is if you say its idf fault as well; thats saying that if someone fires on you and you try to neutralize threat your at fault cause they fired from civilian area? For me all blood on hands of aggressor in such a scenario. Tragic nonetheless, but to add to this, from what I read the idf does do robo calls; drop leaflets and sometimes use a dummy bomb first (a dud that makes noise to warn people) to reduce this.

[jasonlol 154]

  On 18/07/2014 at 00:25, Mohammed Seif said:

Don't doubt, just read the UN reports and the American news regarding the civilian casualties. And go back and read the thread, no one votes for Hamas. I think I know much more about what is going on in Egypt than you do. Simply because the western media does not report much. And no, the blood is not on Hamas, it is as equally on Hamas as it is on the IDF.

http://ari.convio.net/site/News2?page=NewsArticle&id=6418

This was written in 02 but this explains the philosophy im coming from when it comes to war. (not a long read)

[Mohammed Seif 1,451]

  On 18/07/2014 at 00:37, jasonlol said:

im not accusing you of supporting hamas(im well aware of your correct opposition to such a group). and yes you do know more about egypt than I do, and we will just have to disagree on last point. Like the way I see it is if you say its idf fault as well; thats saying that if someone fires on you and you try to neutralize threat your at fault cause they fired from civilian area? For me all blood on hands of aggressor in such a scenario. Tragic nonetheless, but to add to this, from what I read the idf does do robo calls; drop leaflets and sometimes use a dummy bomb first (a dud that makes noise to warn people) to reduce this.

I think Cholou posted this video and you have missed it. Here is how they are being warned.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VheYOMyjTg0

This was also reported on different medias.

You can blame hamas for being fanatics, extremists, radicals, terrorists, stubborn or whatever. But you can't ignore the ones who pull the trigger buddy.

FYI: The Egyptian government hates Hamas and holds it responsible and just issued a new statement with this regards. And as for us Egyptian citizens, we hate them too since the days of Mubarak, when they used to snipe our soldiers who had no contact with them.

[Mohammed Seif 1,451]

  On 18/07/2014 at 00:43, jasonlol said:

http://ari.convio.net/site/News2?page=NewsArticle&id=6418

This was written in 02 but this explains the philosophy im coming from when it comes to war. (not a long read)

Please don't do that. This throws away your arguement. Talking about Iraq and Afghanistan and Bush. Even American soldiers realize it was a failure and unethical.

[jasonlol 154]

  On 18/07/2014 at 00:51, Mohammed Seif said:

Please don't do that. This throws away your arguement. Talking about Iraq and Afghanistan and Bush. Even American soldiers realize it was a failure and unethical.

it wasn't justifying the war; it was saying how you fight a war. Use it 4 the illustration.

[jasonlol 154]

  On 18/07/2014 at 00:49, Mohammed Seif said:

I think Cholou posted this video and you have missed it. Here is how they are being warned.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VheYOMyjTg0

This was also reported on different medias.

You can blame hamas for being fanatics, extremists, radicals, terrorists, stubborn or whatever. But you can't ignore the ones who pull the trigger buddy.

FYI: The Egyptian government hates Hamas and holds it responsible and just issued a new statement with this regards. And as for us Egyptian citizens, we hate them too since the days of Mubarak, when they used to snipe our soldiers who had no contact with them.

well that dud rocket is better than nothing, but the point I was making is idf is justified in netralizing launch sites or suspected holding sites regardless wether it takes warning measures.

[Mohammed Seif 1,451]

  On 18/07/2014 at 01:03, jasonlol said:

it wasn't justifying the war; it was saying how you fight a war. Use it 4 the illustration.

I understand perfectly, but I wouldn't refer to a failure of a war as an illustration guide. We do have casualties in Sinai btw. Casualties are going to happen. But you can approach it through controlled operations using your intelligence and military force to make it as minimal as possible. Even the families of the fallen innocent civilians understand that and are still helping out. We have killed captured much more terrorists than we have killed innocent civilians through precise tactical operations. Not just bombing the crap out of people living in Sinai. We have Hamas, Alqaeda, Ansar bayt el Makdes and other militant groups. Some are Egyptians, some are Palestinians some are Sudanese, some are Syrian and some from other nationalities. We don't have the technology Israel has. We don't get annually 30 billion dollars like Israel gets. Our economy are bad, yet we have more awareness of the value of human life as a military and we are tactically efficient. I am quiet sure Israel can do the same if it chooses to. What is the point of technology and intelligence if you can't use them properly?

[Mohammed Seif 1,451]

  On 18/07/2014 at 01:08, jasonlol said:

well that dud rocket is better than nothing, but the point I was making is idf is justified in netralizing launch sites or suspected holding sites regardless wether it takes warning measures.

That is just inhuman.

[The Skipper 20,593]

I'm not pro-Israeli or pro-Hamas, I mean I sympathise with both sides because there are casualties in both sides but this whole ground offence that Israel have started... I fear for the worst. Israel has no problem in defending itself obviously but innocent Palestinians will get hurt because Hamas will definitely retaliate.

Although the Israeli government aren't exactly angels themselves, and although they have committed and over exaggerated some attacks or retaliations on Gaza, Hamas is truly not helping Palestine's situation here. It is a true shame that they are the major power in Gaza, because IMO even if Israel tried to lower its stance a little bit in a bid for peace, Hamas would probably use that as an incentive to attack and weaken Israel. I can sort of understand the Israeli army's strong stance on Gaza, because Hamas are truly an awful, awful organisation. Hamas want to destroy Israel, don't forget. It's sort of natural for Israel to be defending themselves (even if it has been too excessive in quite a few cases).

I can sort of see what Israel are trying to do, but surely there must be different, more diplomatic ways to get rid of Hamas? I wish there was. It's looking like aggressive means by the Israel army's might be the only way to stop Hamas. I hope there is another way though. I just have a feeling something very bad on a more global scale is going to happen in the near future...

[Mohammed Seif 1,451]

  On 18/07/2014 at 01:18, The Skipper said:

I'm not pro-Israeli or pro-Hamas, I mean I sympathise with both sides because there are casualties in both sides but this whole ground offence that Israel have started... I fear for the worst. Israel has no problem in defending itself obviously but innocent Palestinians will get hurt because Hamas will definitely retaliate.

Although the Israeli government aren't exactly angels themselves, and although they have committed and over exaggerated some attacks or retaliations on Gaza, Hamas is truly not helping Palestine's situation here. It is a true shame that they are the major power in Gaza, because IMO even if Israel tried to lower its stance a little bit in a bid for peace, Hamas would probably use that as an incentive to attack and weaken Israel. I can sort of understand the Israeli army's strong stance on Gaza, because Hamas are truly an awful, awful organisation. Hamas want to destroy Israel, don't forget. It's sort of natural for Israel to be defending themselves (even if it has been too excessive in quite a few cases).

I can sort of see what Israel are trying to do, but surely there must be different, more diplomatic ways to get rid of Hamas? I wish there was. It's looking like aggressive means by the Israel army's might be the only way to stop Hamas. I hope there is another way though. I just have a feeling something very bad on a more global scale is going to happen in the near future...

No matter how brutal the Israelis attacked Gaza in the past, Hamas remains. Actually Hamas and other groups get stronger. Last in 2008 hamas didn't have rockets that can reach Tel Aviv. Now they do. As time progresses, hamas and other militant groups will only get stronger unless the Palestinians themselves decide to remove Hamas. The Palestinians see nothing good coming from hamas or Israel. The Israeli Government is making their lives miserable from day to another. More poverty, more injustices, ....etc. If that approach was the right approach, it would have worked in the past against Lebanon, Palestinians and others including Egypt. But if History tells us something, this kind of action will only make things worse for Israel on the long run. Israel has to defend itself, but the 80% civilian deaths does not translate to that. It translates to war crimes.

[The Skipper 20,593]

  On 18/07/2014 at 01:29, Mohammed Seif said:

No matter how brutal the Israelis attacked Gaza in the past, Hamas remains. Actually Hamas and other groups get stronger. Last in 2008 hamas didn't have rockets that can reach Tel Aviv. Now they do. As time progresses, hamas and other militant groups will only get stronger unless the Palestinians themselves decide to remove Hamas. The Palestinians see nothing good coming from hamas or Israel. The Israeli Government is making their lives miserable from day to another. More poverty, more injustices, ....etc. If that approach was the right approach, it would have worked in the past against Lebanon, Palestinians and others including Egypt. But if History tells us something, this kind of action will only make things worse for Israel on the long run. Israel has to defend itself, but the 80% civilian deaths does not translate to that. It translates to war crimes.

It really is a sad state if affairs, a huge conundrum. Israel continue to attack or retaliate against Gaza = Hamas getting stronger... Israel not attacking and merely defending themselves = Hamas attacking Israel.

To me there is no point in discussing peace with Hamas because their main objective is clearly to destroy Israel. You're right in saying that change has to happen from within Gaza. The Palestinians must rise and overthrow Hamas... It's probably the only, not too aggressive way. This obviously isn't helped by the excessive force from Israel though... Of course if your family personally got killed by an Israeli drone you'd find it hard to disagree with what Hamas are doing because unfortunately revenge is a strong part of human nature.

I wish some strong voices in Gaza would look past that though, no matter how hard it may seem, because as you said the only probable way the Palestinians can free themselves is if they act from within and overthrow Hamas.

[The Skipper 20,593]

DP

[Roquila 1,335]

And now 295 innocent human beings died because ..... yea, NO REASON AT ALL! WW3 is approaching.

Glad that i have a German passport, as soon as the wars will start i will be the first one to emigrate to Timbuktu or Swaziland or wherever the world doesnt care to fight.

I ain't gonna fight another mans war for sure.

[Fulham Broadway 17,101]

During the last cycle of horrible violence in 2008-9, operation Cast Lead as the Iraelis called it, or The Gaza Massacre as known in the arab world-the worlds media watched as war crimes were committed and 1400 Palestinians of which over 1100 were civilians, were slaughtered by US hi -tech weaponry in a couple of weeks.

The UN said there were many war crimes committed by Israel -eg using illegal white phosphorous bombs, (just keeps burning flesh to the bone, and can not be put out), drone attacks killing children and women shot in the head as they emerged from buildings carrying white flags. No prosecutions against Israeli soldiers have been forthcoming -oh apart from one -one of them stole a credit card from one of the bodies of a family where 22 of the same family had been killed. Taking the piss or what ?

Over 1000 complaints to the Isarelis have resulted in 38 responses, just acknowledging that a complaint has been received. if compensation is sought for a building illegally blown up by Israelis, the complaint has to be signed by an Israeli diplomat. Thats pretty tricky for most in Gaza.

Anyway, my point is what israel seems to be doing is fostering more and more resentment -you wouldnt forget if your children had been splattered all over their bedroom. The hi tech weaponry does not cost Isarel, even the US based Iraeli billionaires get Obamas tax payers to cough up the money, so its a win win situation for the Israelis. Couple that with a most sophisticated media and propaganda machine -ie ''its Hamas rockets'' and so it goes on. How many times do they parrott ''hamas uses civilians to protect their rockets, we use missiles to protect our civilians'' ?

What the Israeli propaganda machinery does is to reduce the entirety of Palestine, teh rich and diversified tapestry of Palestinian resistance to Hamas. Then they demonise Hamas. This starategy works, especially when aided and abetted by state sponsored or corporate media like Sky, BBC, ABC or CNN. They execute this strategy, then go on a rampage against Palestinians, maiming and murdering with impunity.

For the good of Israel, they need to see that in the long term this startegy will do more harm to Israel than short term bloody victory over a dispossessd few.