Politics & Stuff

[bushman 2,043]

Of course both made mistakes, but you can't say that both are at fault because you would be confusing the cause with the reaction and equating the victim with the oppressor. You can't look at the situation with the eyes of today and ignore the reasons that lead to things being how they are.

http://antiwar.com/blog/2013/10/17/illegal-israeli-settlement-construction-rose-by-70-in-2013/

Illegal settlements condemned by the whole world, but the Jews keep building, why ? See above.

[bushman 2,043]

well, they had the opportunity at first, to get a lot of land. they refused it, started wars, lost the wars and lost more territory. you can also ask the question, if a nation, who lost 6 million people (would equate like 10% of Englands population) hasnt got the right to get an own contry, on the old place where they have been living 1000 of years ago and got driven out of it. Israel aint it fault that they are defending themselves and won the wars against all the coutnries they had one. and they also arent at fault that Hitler tried to kill all of them, arent they? I think that if your nation would be in this sort of situation, you also would have watned a country, where you can reunite with your fellow man and so on, dont you? especially when a lot of refugees, who tries to go other countries after the WW 2 were just send away like animals.

No nation has the right to displace others, steal their land.

[haranr 485]

No nation has the right to displace others, steal their land.

You started it, by claiming the "JEWS" did that, do that' think that. You have no clue once again and you are obviously offending all the Jewish people.

We do have a racist Jewish population here in Israel but they are a small part. Israel has gone in the wrong way sometimes but so as the Palestinian people if not more!

And just to be clear! Almost EVERY nation displaced other and "stole" got territory in a war that in this case the other side started.

[haranr 485]

http://antiwar.com/blog/2013/10/17/illegal-israeli-settlement-construction-rose-by-70-in-2013/

Illegal settlements condemned by the whole world, but the Jews keep building, why ? See above.

The settlements are WRONG! I agree with you.

But the articles that you are reading are absolutely not objective .

[bushman 2,043]

The settlements are WRONG! I agree with you.

But the articles that you are reading are absolutely not objective .

How many times do you need to be told not to reply to me ? Read on ! Do not read, do not reply to my postings !

[haranr 485]

How many times do you need to be told not to reply to me ? Read on ! Do not read, do not reply to my postings !

How can I not replay to this shit. Someone needs to stop that.

[bushman 2,043]

How can I not replay to this shit. Someone needs to stop that.

[yuvala 2,167]

The palestinians are taught IN SCHOOL and kindergardens from a very young age to hate the jews, they are basicaly brainwashed. When someone blows himself up and kills jews, he's considered a hero, it brings pride to his family.

Just look at this:

And yet you think the jews are the only ones to blame.

[bushman 2,043]

The palestinians are taught IN SCHOOL and kindergardens from a very young age to hate the jews, they are basicaly brainwashed. When someone blows himself up and kills jews, he's considered a hero, it brings pride to his family.

Just look at this:

And yet you think the jews are the only ones to blame.

It´s the direct, the only way to respond to illegal Jewish settlements. These people are deprived, oppressed by Jewish expansion policies.

[CHOULO19 24,332]

well, they had the opportunity at first, to get a lot of land. they refused it, started wars, lost the wars and lost more territory. you can also ask the question, if a nation, who lost 6 million people (would equate like 10% of Englands population) hasnt got the right to get an own contry, on the old place where they have been living 1000 of years ago and got driven out of it. Israel aint it fault that they are defending themselves and won the wars against all the coutnries they had one. and they also arent at fault that Hitler tried to kill all of them, arent they? I think that if your nation would be in this sort of situation, you also would have watned a country, where you can reunite with your fellow man and so on, dont you? especially when a lot of refugees, who tries to go other countries after the WW 2 were just send away like animals.

You're mixing up A LOT of stuff in there and missing even more stuff. First let me clear up a couple of things: The Palestinians were NEVER genuinely offered any land to live peacefully. The Israeli plan has always been and still is to occupy the land from the Laytani River in Lebanon to the Suez canal in Egypt. And even if they were offered some land (which again they were not) why in the world would they accept that? The land is after all theirs. It's like someone came into your house, said it was his now and then offered to give you the living room back and said you're being unreasonable for taking it.

Secondly, the notion that they have the right to occupy the land because they lived there 3000 years ago is just laughable. It's like saying to 300 million Americans to clear out because the Indians want their land, and by that logic you should give half of Europe back to the Mongols, or even east Europe as well as Spain and Portugal back to the Arabs. It's just beyond ridiculous. It doesn't work that way. Lands and nations and cultures evolve, they don't just go and come so suddenly. A lot of the original inhabitants of the old Israel converted to Christianity 2000 years ago and then a lot of those converted to Islam 600 years later. So most of the Palestinians who were being kicked out of their homes are as much the descendants of the original Israeli people as the people who were brought in to replace them except they had actually stayed in their land for all this time and made a home of Palestine.

And even if you ignore all that, are you really saying that the answer to the racism against Jews in Europe is to murder thousands, evacuate millions from their homes and create a racist state that is destined to always be at conflict with it's surroundings? (PS: If you think Hitler invented racism against Jews, you really need to read up on European history). There is no logical explanation to what happened in the early 20th century in Palestine. There is no angle that makes this "fair" or "right". But it happened anyway and it cannot be undone. A solution has to be found to satisfy most of the people and it won't happen soon.

But both you and me have thrown a lot of stuff in the air here, so just to make sure you, and everyone reading this, understand how happened, let me draw you a timeline of the events:

- At the end of the 19th century, a corrupt and aging Ottoman empire ruled the region. Arabs were largely being marginalized and oppressed. The British, French, Russians and Germans (was still called Prussia at the time) had established special privileges in mount Lebanon under the banner of protecting religious minorities in an attempt to weaken the Empire from within. Muslims, Christians and even a Jewish minority lived peacefully in the economic center of the region: Palestine.

-1914: World War 1 started with the Ottoman Empire allying with Germany.

- 1915: In a continuation of their efforts to dismantle the Empire, the French and British made a secret agreement to divide the Arab lands between the two countries. The Zionists, who now had a large and growing influence on the politics in Europe got in on the negotiations. The British eager to please the Zionists who held some of the biggest positions in Europe and could genuinely affect the war added an "International Zone" to the plan which was intended to be the destination of Jewish immigrants from Europe.

- 1916: After failing against the Ottoman Empire in the Balkan, the British realized that they needed the help of the Arabs. So they promised Al Sherif Hussein that the Arabs will be allowed to rule their own land, from the gulf to Syria if they in exchange aim the Allies in the war. The Arabs agreed and started the "Arab revolt" against the empire.

- 1917: The British finally decided to actually go through with a Jewish state in Palestine. After contemplating places like Seychelles and Madagascar, the British decided that having an ally state in the region is in the best future for them in the long run. Note that all this was happening at the start of the oil revolution with oil being discovered in the region. This resulted in the Balfour Declaration.

- 1918: The Arab revolt was a success and the Ottomans were defeated. Al Shariff Hussein started negotiations with all the different regions in the Arab world to create a unified government. A temporary government was created headed by Rida Al Rikabi.

- 1919: World War 1 ended. British and French soldiers landed on the eastern shore of the Mediterranean and declared Lebanon, Syria, Palestine and Iraq (there was no such thing as Jordan back then), the lands they promised to the Arabs, as occupied land.

The US, who believe it or not were adored in the region and actually genuinely stood for democracy and what's right in the world at that time, sent the Kind-Crane commission to the middle east to assess the situation and stand on the people's demands. They concluded that:

"...the American people as a whole should realize that if the American government decided to support the establishment of a Jewish state in Palestine, they are committing the American people to the use of force in that area, since only by force can a Jewish state in Palestine be established or maintained." The report noted that there is a principle that the wishes of the local population need to be taken into account and that there is widespread anti-Zionist feeling in Palestine and Syria, and the holy nature of the land to Christians and Muslims as well as Jews must preclude solely Jewish dominion. It also noted that Jews at that time comprised only 10% of the population of Palestine.

- 1920: The San Ramon conference stripped the Arabs of every right to rule their own land. The French occupied Lebanon and Syria while British occupied Palestine and Iraq after small battles. In order to shut the KSA up, the state of Jordan was created and given to King Abdullah, one of the royal family of KSA.

After that, as planned, the British started a huge Jewish immigration from Europe to Palestine and gave them protection and privileges over the locals. The British took their time assembling, funding and arming an army of the newly arrived Jewish population.

- 1948: Feeling the Jewish army was strong enough and the international political climate was suiting since the world was still busy with outcomes of World War 2, the British finally oversaw the "independence" of the State of Israel. Thousands of Palestinians killed, millions thrown out of their homes and made to be come refugees in Lebanon, Syrian and Jordan where they still till this day live as refugees in camps that aren't suited to even store cattle!

After that, naturally a lot of Arab states rose to the aid of the Palestinians since they are practically the same nation with the same history. Defeats were inevitable, betrayals happened and resistance rose and fell and then rose up again and the Palestinian cause has been the number one used and abused cause in the Arab world since.

So there's the story of how the State of Israel came to be for you. Obviously there are bound to be a few things that are not clear there because you could write a book about every single sentence; that's how vast and complicated the subject is. But feel free to ask me about anything or look it up for yourself if you want something more reliable.

[CHOULO19 24,332]

The palestinians are taught IN SCHOOL and kindergardens from a very young age to hate the jews, they are basicaly brainwashed. When someone blows himself up and kills jews, he's considered a hero, it brings pride to his family.

Just look at this:

And yet you think the jews are the only ones to blame.

That's just a snapshot of one of the many consequences of the conflict and is completely take out of context. Of course war is ugly and its consequences even uglier. Here's an image of Israeli children writing on bomb shells destined for the south of Lebanon. They are dedicating the bombs to the children of Lebanon with "love":

But what does that prove about the cause of the conflict? Absolutely nothing.

[yuvala 2,167]

You're mixing up A LOT of stuff in there and missing even more stuff. First let me clear up a couple of things: The Palestinians were NEVER genuinely offered any land to live peacefully. The Israeli plan has always been and still is to occupy the land from the Laytani River in Lebanon to the Suez canal in Egypt. And even if they were offered some land (which again they were not) why in the world would they accept that? The land is after all theirs. It's like someone came into your house, said it was his now and then offered to give you the living room back and said you're being unreasonable for taking it.

Secondly, the notion that they have the right to occupy the land because they lived there 3000 years ago is just laughable. It's like saying to 300 million Americans to clear out because the Indians want their land, and by that logic you should give half of Europe back to the Mongols, or even east Europe as well as Spain and Portugal back to the Arabs. It's just beyond ridiculous. It doesn't work that way. Lands and nations and cultures evolve, they don't just go and come so suddenly. A lot of the original inhabitants of the old Israel converted to Christianity 2000 years ago and then a lot of those converted to Islam 600 years later. So most of the Palestinians who were being kicked out of their homes are as much the descendants of the original Israeli people as the people who were brought in to replace them except they had actually stayed in their land for all this time and made a home of Palestine.

And even if you ignore all that, are you really saying that the answer to the racism against Jews in Europe is to murder thousands, evacuate millions from their homes and create a racist state that is destined to always be at conflict with it's surroundings? (PS: If you think Hitler invented racism against Jews, you really need to read up on European history). There is no logical explanation to what happened in the early 20th century in Palestine. There is no angle that makes this "fair" or "right". But it happened anyway and it cannot be undone. A solution has to be found to satisfy most of the people and it won't happen soon.

But both you and me have thrown a lot of stuff in the air here, so just to make sure you, and everyone reading this, understand how happened, let me draw you a timeline of the events:

- At the end of the 19th century, a corrupt and aging Ottoman empire ruled the region. Arabs were largely being marginalized and oppressed. The British, French, Russians and Germans (was still called Prussia at the time) had established special privileges in mount Lebanon under the banner of protecting religious minorities in an attempt to weaken the Empire from within. Muslims, Christians and even a Jewish minority lived peacefully in the economic center of the region: Palestine.

-1914: World War 1 started with the Ottoman Empire allying with Germany.

- 1915: In a continuation of their efforts to dismantle the Empire, the French and British made a secret agreement to divide the Arab lands between the two countries. The Zionists, who now had a large and growing influence on the politics in Europe got in on the negotiations. The British eager to please the Zionists who held some of the biggest positions in Europe and could genuinely affect the war added an "International Zone" to the plan which was intended to be the destination of Jewish immigrants from Europe.

- 1916: After failing against the Ottoman Empire in the Balkan, the British realized that they needed the help of the Arabs. So they promised Al Sherif Hussein that the Arabs will be allowed to rule their own land, from the gulf to Syria if they in exchange aim the Allies in the war. The Arabs agreed and started the "Arab revolt" against the empire.

- 1917: The British finally decided to actually go through with a Jewish state in Palestine. After contemplating places like Seychelles and Madagascar, the British decided that having an ally state in the region is in the best future for them in the long run. Note that all this was happening at the start of the oil revolution with oil being discovered in the region. This resulted in the Balfour Declaration.

- 1918: The Arab revolt was a success and the Ottomans were defeated. Al Shariff Hussein started negotiations with all the different regions in the Arab world to create a unified government. A temporary government was created headed by Rida Al Rikabi.

- 1919: World War 1 ended. British and French soldiers landed on the eastern shore of the Mediterranean and declared Lebanon, Syria, Palestine and Iraq (there was no such thing as Jordan back then), the lands they promised to the Arabs, as occupied land.

The US, who believe it or not were adored in the region and actually genuinely stood for democracy and what's right in the world at that time, sent the Kind-Crane commission to the middle east to assess the situation and stand on the people's demands. They concluded that:

"...the American people as a whole should realize that if the American government decided to support the establishment of a Jewish state in Palestine, they are committing the American people to the use of force in that area, since only by force can a Jewish state in Palestine be established or maintained." The report noted that there is a principle that the wishes of the local population need to be taken into account and that there is widespread anti-Zionist feeling in Palestine and Syria, and the holy nature of the land to Christians and Muslims as well as Jews must preclude solely Jewish dominion. It also noted that Jews at that time comprised only 10% of the population of Palestine.

- 1920: The San Ramon conference stripped the Arabs of every right to rule their own land. The French occupied Lebanon and Syria while British occupied Palestine and Iraq after small battles. In order to shut the KSA up, the state of Jordan was created and given to King Abdullah, one of the royal family of KSA.

After that, as planned, the British started a huge Jewish immigration from Europe to Palestine and gave them protection and privileges over the locals. The British took their time assembling, funding and arming an army of the newly arrived Jewish population.

- 1948: Feeling the Jewish army was strong enough and the international political climate was suiting since the world was still busy with outcomes of World War 2, the British finally oversaw the "independence" of the State of Israel. Thousands of Palestinians killed, millions thrown out of their homes and made to be come refugees in Lebanon, Syrian and Jordan where they still till this day live as refugees in camps that aren't suited to even store cattle!

After that, naturally a lot of Arab states rose to the aid of the Palestinians since they are practically the same nation with the same history. Defeats were inevitable, betrayals happened and resistance rose and fell and then rose up again and the Palestinian cause has been the number one used and abused cause in the Arab world since.

So there's the story of how the State of Israel came to be for you. Obviously there are bound to be a few things that are not clear there because you could write a book about every single sentence; that's how vast and complicated the subject is. But feel free to ask me about anything or look it up for yourself if you want something more reliable.

Great information.

When looking at the history, like you said there is nothing we can do now, you can't undo it.

So far it really doesn't look like there is going to be any solution anytime soon.

I think Hamas and the other terrorists organizations are by far the biggest problem for both sides. There is NEVER going to be peace with this much hate from both sides (although the hate is really strong within the hearts of the Palestinians, both because of Hamas and the situation itself).

[bushman 2,043]

Great information.

When looking at the history, like you said there is nothing we can do now, you can't undo it.

So far it really doesn't look like there is going to be any solution anytime soon.

I think Hamas and the other terrorists organizations are by far the biggest problem for both sides. There is NEVER going to be peace with this much hate from both sides (although the hate is really strong within the hearts of the Palestinians, both because of Hamas and the situation itself).

http://www.jewwatch.com/jew-jewishhategroups-folder.html

How do you call these groups ? Terror at its best, I feel.

[Toli 977]

where did I say that Hitler invented racism? jews were already persecuted in the times of Rome and even before. they haven been followed and dipslaced from society for thousands of years. and palestine was offered land at the beginning..they wanted to split the country in half, giving one part to Israel and the other to Palestine. but Palestine didnt want to accept this (you could argue if it was rightufl or not...in the end, the situation for them even got worse).

which is the other solution? where is a place a Israeli state could be build? I think after the WW 2 we cant discuss the fact, if they deserve one and have the right to have an own liberate state. they have. and the decision was made to plant it on the "holy ground", where they have been living for years. For me thats a logical solution- they way HOW it was executed, is not good, yes, I agree. but I still think that there is no other place in the world where a jewish state could be build beside this.

@bushman the settlements are illegal, most of the people agree upon that and dont support it.

I know the history. After the WW2 the big states all gave their OK for the operation (even Russia, which was kinda surprising at that time) and THEY made the plan how to build this country, not Israel by itself. Britain, Russia, USA, France made this plan mostly. The biggest crime was to send Palestines away from their country and not give most of them the way back to it, I agree with you. but I dont agree with you upon the fact, where coutnry was build and if it is right or not to do there. I think it was the only logical solution for this.

And in terms of peace-making: there was a time where Israel tried to find compromises with Palestine, but theys started to do all the terrorist stuff and brought in groups like Hamas etc. you cant negotiate with terrorists, thats it. thats one of the factors, why there wont be any solution soon.

but this topic is so complex, you could wirte essays about it. i am just angry, that people like bushman just post two blogs or articles and think they know the truth about 60 years of war lol. its way more complex than that and knowing the truth, without even being at this places, is ridicilous. a lot of stuff that is written about Gaza is way dramatized and made up for example..

[yuvala 2,167]

That's just a snapshot of one of the many consequences of the conflict and is completely take out of context. Of course war is ugly and its consequences even uglier. Here's an image of Israeli children writing on bomb shells destined for the south of Lebanon. They are dedicating the bombs to the children of Lebanon with "love":

But what does that prove about the cause of the conflict? Absolutely nothing.

Like I said, there is deep hate from both sides. I never said the Israelis weren't to blame, I just showed Bushman that it's not only Israel at fault.

Although I dont see how the picture I posted was "taken out of context", just like the picture you posted wasn't. (btw, both pictures make me equally disgusted).

[bushman 2,043]

where did I say that Hitler invented racism? jews were already persecuted in the times of Rome and even before. they haven been followed and dipslaced from society for thousands of years. and palestine was offered land at the beginning..they wanted to split the country in half, giving one part to Israel and the other to Palestine.

which is the other solution? where is a place a Israeli state could be build? I think after the WW 2 we cant discuss the fact, if they deserve one and have the right to have an own liberate state. they have. and the decision was made to plant it on the "holy ground", where they have been living for years. For me thats a logical solution- they way HOW it was executed, is not good, yes, I agree. but I still think that there is no other place in the world where a jewish state could be build beside this.

@bushman the settlements are illegal, most of the people agree upon that and dont support it.

I know the history. After the WW2 the big states all gave their OK for the operation (even Russia, which was kinda surprising at that time) and THEY made the plan how to build this country, not Israel by itself. Britain, Russia, USA, France made this plan mostly. The biggest crime was to send Palestines away from their country and not give most of them the way back to it, I agree with you. but I dont agree with you upon the fact, where coutnry was build and if it is right or not to do there. I think it was the only logical solution for this.

You have no right to come to my house, push me out, just because you came with bigger thugs.

That´s what Jews had done, financed by American tax payer. Jews are military power in that region, no challenge.

[yuvala 2,167]

http://www.jewwatch.com/jew-jewishhategroups-folder.html

How do you call these groups ? Terror at its best, I feel.

And your point is?..

Btw, are you anti-zionist or anti-semitic? (seriously asking)

[bushman 2,043]

And your point is?..

Btw, are you anti-zionist or anti-semitic? (seriously asking)

Read it, it´s all there.

[Weckerz 3,781]

And your point is?..

Btw, are you anti-zionist or anti-semitic? (seriously asking)

For your own good mate, stop talking to this cretin.

[Toli 977]

You have no right to come to my house, push me out, just because you came with bigger thugs.

That´s what Jews had done, financed by American tax payer. Jews are military power in that region, no challenge.

well, thats always done. jews got pushed out by muslims back then too. thats how territory is actually placed. thats what the US did with the indians etc etc. or what Hitler did to Poland and so on. at first there was a diplomatic offer, Palestine didnt accept it. what is your other option? where could the jews live? I am waiting come on

but all you can offer on this topic are one-sided articles ore one-two sentences. you are just one of this puppets who are running around screaming fuck israel I suppose. just follow the mainstream, its always easier tahn watching at both sides.