Politics & Stuff

[Spike 12,049]

10 minutes ago, Fulham Broadway said:

Not all racist views lead to actions, but every racist action has sprung from racist views. So again, to me it does matter.

That's fair enough. But again you misread me, I've never spoken strictly about sincere 'racist views'. Someone can say something disgustingly racist and not mean it. I can say I will murder you tomorrow but that doesn't mean I'm sincere. Of course I don't think it's okay for people to be sincerely racist but that isn't my argument. I was always talking about a scenario where someone says something racist (whether they mean it or not isn't specified) and they are punished despite no-one taking offence to it. It may be the same ballpark but it's different levels of severity when you bring organised racism and sincere racism into the mix. Should a bloke be reprimanded for telling a racist joke to his mates? That's the level I'm discussing, not hate rallies, or organised murder. Another aspect of my argument is that I don't think I have the authority to lecture someone about race when they aren't willing to engage into a dialect. I think you can if you choose to, I wouldn't think any less of you but I'm not trying to be the sole-soldier against racism (one of my life philosophies is 'who am I to lecture you on morality?), I'm not going to change a hardcore racist's mind but time and other organisations or life experiences can reform those ideas. You can't change someone's mind unless they are open to the idea of changing their mind.

Also wasn't Nazi Germany openly anti-semetic before the holocaust? Sure they didn't televise their plans to murder 3,000,000 people but they certainly weren't coy about their loveloss for the Jews.

[Spike 12,049]

Thinking about it and 'You're racist' is the ultimate insult tbh. It's pretty impossible to deny being racist without the accuser saying something like 'that is what a racist would say' or 'that doesn't make you not racist'. The only recourse for that type of situation is 'prove it' and force the burden of proof on the accuser. I see it happen all the time in the media to the point the word loses meaning and just become a shit flinging episode.

[Spike 12,049]

I guess at the end of the day I'm strongly anti-globalism and my laissez faire attitude towards the world can seem apathetic and can manifest itself in debates like this. 

[Fulham Broadway 16,835]

Just now, Spike said:

That's fair enough. But again you misread me, I've never spoken strictly about sincere 'racist views'. Someone can say something disgustingly racist and not mean it. I can say I will murder you tomorrow but that doesn't mean I'm sincere. Of course I don't think it's okay for people to be sincerely racist but that isn't my argument. I was always talking about a scenario where someone says something racist (whether they mean it or not isn't specified) and they are punished despite no-one taking offence to it. It may be the same ballpark but it's different levels of severity when you bring organised racism and sincere racism into the mix. Should a bloke be reprimanded for telling a racist joke to his mates? That's the level I'm discussing, not hate rallies, or organised murder. Another aspect of my argument is that I don't think I have the authority to lecture someone about race when they aren't willing to engage into a dialect. I think you can if you choose to, I wouldn't think any less of you but I'm not trying to be the sole-soldier against racism, I'm not going to change a hardcore racist's mind but time and other organisations or life experiences can reform those ideas. 

But it always starts with racist jokes, anti jewish cartoons, paki jokes, ....''it's just a bit of fun mate, I didn't mean it''. Most of the time it goes nowhere, but all division and racist assaults would have come from some sort of stereotyping or labelling.

 

11 minutes ago, Spike said:

Should a bloke be reprimanded for telling a racist joke to his mates

That's tricky - last place I worked a bloke was suspended. I had to represent him, and got him reinstated, he was naïve, and didn't mean it he was just a bit of an idiot. The crucial thing was he'd heard the joke from a nasty racist.

[Spike 12,049]

9 minutes ago, Fulham Broadway said:

But it always starts with racist jokes, anti jewish cartoons, paki jokes, ....''it's just a bit of fun mate, I didn't mean it''. Most of the time it goes nowhere, but all division and racist assaults would have come from some sort of stereotyping or labelling.

 

That's tricky - last place I worked a bloke was suspended. I had to represent him, and got him reinstated, he was naïve, and didn't mean it he was just a bit of an idiot. The crucial thing was he'd heard the joke from a nasty racist.

I guess I can only call from things from my own experiences. With my experiences I've been able to tell a joke or a hear a joke and understand that is where it ends. I've always been in a multiethnic environment so I've been able to understand when a stereotype is a reality and when it isn't. Personally I think there has to be potential for hatred for it to manifest. Perhaps if the people that you mentioned weren't angry towards other races, they'd be angry towards the upper class or something similar. I think it's a natural instinct to become biased on the basis of 'clans' or 'groups' (derived from geographic location, appearance, beliefs, etc). People love to scapegoat and channel their anger and frustrations into one easily identified subject. I mean it's easy to imagine that 150 years ago instead of 'those bloody pakis' it would have been 'those bloody mancs' or 'those bloody posh bastards'.

[Sir Mikel OBE 4,919]

1 hour ago, Spike said:

I guess at the end of the day I'm strongly anti-globalism and my laissez faire attitude towards the world can seem apathetic and can manifest itself in debates like this. 

I don't think you are anti globalism. If you feel any pride in Being Australian, or living in America(two of the more basic examples of British Globalism) then we are all walking examples of it. I think you probably don't like some parts of it which are the negative side effects.

 

Hell, we support an english club where the best two current players are a French man and a Belgian

[kmk108 1,186]

1 hour ago, Fulham Broadway said:

But it always starts with racist jokes, anti jewish cartoons, paki jokes, ....''it's just a bit of fun mate, I didn't mean it''. Most of the time it goes nowhere, but all division and racist assaults would have come from some sort of stereotyping or labelling.

This is what I would argue. IMO, there's a difference between a joke about a race and a racist joke. And though there may not be anyone around to offend, it can perpetuate or spread a hateful view to others. For example, if someone performed in blackface at a minstrel show to an audience of only white people in the 1920s, no one would be offended; however, it only strengthens the racist views of black people instead of combating it. 

[Spike 12,049]

58 minutes ago, kmk108 said:

This is what I would argue. IMO, there's a difference between a joke about a race and a racist joke. And though there may not be anyone around to offend, it can perpetuate or spread a hateful view to others. For example, if someone performed in blackface at a minstrel show to an audience of only white people in the 1920s, no one would be offended; however, it only strengthens the racist views of black people instead of combating it. 

Blackface is also contextual to the culture. In the USA it's very offensive because of it's history, but what if today a white actor portrayed a black character in a reverent manner? People would say that it's racist because they could have hired a black actor but what if that white actor transcends the black face in puts in not only a respectable performance but does so in a way that elevates the character beyond their race? 

For instance, about a decade ago there was a Jackson Five tribute group in Australia. They wore black face, it's wasn't particularly dignified but they did it because they adored the music. Nobody was offended till Harry Connick Jr. took the moral highground and said 'blah blah blah this is offensive we don't do this in America'. But he was applying his own experience with blackface to the instance not the cultural and artist's intent.

Also if you go back and watch cartoons like Felix the Cat, you'll notice that the 'sambo' blackface characters are always the good guys, having a great time, smiling, only to be punished by the white man. Another thing, if you go to Jamaica you'll notice they don't give a fuck, you'll see blackface everywhere.

[Spike 12,049]

1 hour ago, Sir Mikel OBE said:

I don't think you are anti globalism. If you feel any pride in Being Australian, or living in America(two of the more basic examples of British Globalism) then we are all walking examples of it. I think you probably don't like some parts of it which are the negative side effects.

 

Hell, we support an english club where the best two current players are a French man and a Belgian

Point conceded. 

[kmk108 1,186]

11 hours ago, Spike said:

Blackface is also contextual to the culture. In the USA it's very offensive because of it's history, but what if today a white actor portrayed a black character in a reverent manner? People would say that it's racist because they could have hired a black actor but what if that white actor transcends the black face in puts in not only a respectable performance but does so in a way that elevates the character beyond their race? 

For instance, about a decade ago there was a Jackson Five tribute group in Australia. They wore black face, it's wasn't particularly dignified but they did it because they adored the music. Nobody was offended till Harry Connick Jr. took the moral highground and said 'blah blah blah this is offensive we don't do this in America'. But he was applying his own experience with blackface to the instance not the cultural and artist's intent.

Also if you go back and watch cartoons like Felix the Cat, you'll notice that the 'sambo' blackface characters are always the good guys, having a great time, smiling, only to be punished by the white man. Another thing, if you go to Jamaica you'll notice they don't give a fuck, you'll see blackface everywhere.

But that wasn't my point. Blackface was done very distastefully in the US in the past, which was my point. If there's a white guy jumping around on stage in black face acting like a monkey, it's perpetuating a racist stereotype.

 

The problem with this kind of stuff is what is judged as racist? There's words/phrases/jokes that offend some and don't offend others. There's some obvious things that seem to be offensive no matter who you are talking to/about, but others aren't so black and white.

[Spike 12,049]

3 hours ago, kmk108 said:

But that wasn't my point. Blackface was done very distastefully in the US in the past, which was my point. If there's a white guy jumping around on stage in black face acting like a monkey, it's perpetuating a racist stereotype.

 

The problem with this kind of stuff is what is judged as racist? There's words/phrases/jokes that offend some and don't offend others. There's some obvious things that seem to be offensive no matter who you are talking to/about, but others aren't so black and white.

I wasn't disagreeing with you, I was just extrapolating.

[Fernando 6,454]

Nikki Haley urges UN to shift its criticism from Israel to Iran

 

 

 

 

 

At Security Council meeting on ‘the Situation in the Middle East,’ US envoy bemoans ‘absurd’ bias against Jewish state

 

 

 

 

 

“Every month the Security Council convenes a meeting on the Middle East. We have lots of meetings on specific countries and conflicts in this region but this debate is our opportunity to talk about the Middle East as a whole. Regrettably, these monthly meetings routinely turn into Israel-bashing sessions. That’s the way the Security Council has operated for years. It’s a formula that is absurdly biased against one country. It’s a formula that is painfully narrow in its description of the conflicts in the region,” said Haley, who is this month’s president of the Security Council.

“Iran is using Hezbollah to expand its regional aspirations. That is a threat that should be dominating our discussions at the Security Council,” she said.

Since Haley assumed her post in January with the promise that there “is a new sheriff in town,” she has repeatedly chastised the UN for what she says is its Israel obsession and anti-Israel bias.

“Where there is terror, where there is death, there is Iran. Teheran is an accomplice in the atrocities taking place every single day in Syria. The Iranian proxy Hezbollah places its weapons in homes, mosques and hospitals in Lebanon, and in Gaza, Hamas has spent millions of Iranian dollars on rockets, guns and digging terror tunnels,” he said.

Moreover, Danon told the council, Iran not only threatens the region through proxies, it threatens the region directly with its continued ballistic missile tests, “which are in direct defiance this Council…The Iranians have not hidden their intentions. Just two days ago they wrote on one of their missiles: ‘Death to Israel.’”

http://www.timesofisrael.com/nikki-haley-urges-un-to-shift-its-criticism-from-israel-to-iran/

 

 

 

[cosmicway 1,323]

French election:

It's likely to end up 60-40 in favour of Macron they say, which will be the same result as in the euro-elections of 2014 for Lepen.
Lepen got 21.5% in the first round.
That does n't surprise me. She could have 10% - 20% - 30% first round support, any number.
What intrigues me is who might have Marine Lepen as second choice ?

[Spike 12,049]

Ewww, an Rothschild banker as the president.

[CHOULO19 24,332]

FFS stop voting "centrist" politicians into office!

[Spike 12,049]

I'm surprised there aren't more PMCs knocking about the middle-east and Africa that are supported by the ETERNAL WAR ECONOMY. lmao I wouldn't be surprised if Russia and the US had secret deals and meetings on how to extrapolate the situation ad infinitum to keep the wheels of the war machine moving.Fuck mate, if only Rhodesia still existed we could be knocking about in the bush giving nuclear warheads to Zimbabwe rebels and Boers.

[kmk108 1,186]

9 hours ago, Spike said:

I'm surprised there aren't more PMCs knocking about the middle-east and Africa that are supported by the ETERNAL WAR ECONOMY. lmao I wouldn't be surprised if Russia and the US had secret deals and meetings on how to extrapolate the situation ad infinitum to keep the wheels of the war machine moving.Fuck mate, if only Rhodesia still existed we could be knocking about in the bush giving nuclear warheads to Zimbabwe rebels and Boers.

Wha...wha...wha... You mean we're not just looking out for peoples' best interests?

 

[Spike 12,049]

21 minutes ago, kmk108 said:

Wha...wha...wha... You mean we're not just looking out for peoples' best interests?

 

People have made literal and figurative killings from the mercenary business.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ongoing_armed_conflicts

Look at that list of wars.