Politics & Stuff

[xPetrCechx 13,570]

21 minutes ago, Parky said:

Nah he made a huge political misjudgement in calling the referendum in the first place. His going to go down in the history books as the man responsible for splitting up the UK and leaving England a much weaker country.

 

 

he had no choice? he wanted to be elected again, so he promised this referendum...

[Iggy Doonican 4,186]

What have The Bank of England and the England Football Team have in common ?. They both have terrible Sterling.

[Fulham Broadway 17,299]

DAVID Cameron has confirmed that he well and truly fucked that up.

Addressing the nation from the steps of Number 10, the prime minister said: “Christ almighty, what the hell was I playing at?

“Giving provincial England – and the sodding Welsh – the chance to actively vote against foreigners? Mad. Just mad.”

Pausing for reflection, he then added: “Actually, you know what? Go fuck yourselves you bunch of ghastly, ill-educated, working class tits.

“What have you ever done? I was prime minister for six years, meanwhile you were all doing your best to qualify for the Jeremy Kyle Show.

“And let’s just see how Sunderland gets on when Nissan moves its Qashqai factory to Bulgaria. That will cheer me right up.”

Mr Cameron then stood silently in front of the media while giving the finger with both hands.

[OhForAGreavsie 6,057]

Watch out folks, the pope is talking sense this morning. We are definitely living in very strange times.

[cosmicway 1,333]

We are many European supporters here.
Most European supporters did not want Brexit, as is natural.
I hope we will all stay loyal to the club and forget / downgrade the Brexit situation.

 

[CurlyHairLikeLuiz 1,625]

What I don't understand is that people seem to think that there will be zero immigration, or emigration to the EU in future will be banned.

It's called a visa; the process has gone on for years and years and anybody skilled can move to Europe is they choose as these countries will still want to attract talent. Most unskilled workers have no desire to leave Britain and similarly it works both ways, most don't want foreign labour to undercut the British market (which happens despite the minimum wage, many work under that money). That's the immigration argument; the key word is mass. Nigel Farage for example is vastly misrepresented by those that oppose him, he does not oppose all immigration nor does he hate foreigners (he has a German wife), and he also used to be a stockbroker, and was one of the chief victims of the ERM crisis. Immigrants should feel welcome in this country and what has been done to them as the occasion has been seized upon by the far right should incur severe penalties.

What bitter remainers are trying to do is portray Brexit voters as either racist, too 'old' to vote or somehow the 1 million majority was not decisive. Utterly disgusting, contempt of democracy makes you no better than the Bolsheviks post Russian Revolution 1917 or the Nazis manipulating the German parliament in order to install Hitler as Chancellor. I have no sympathy to those trying to do so with that stupid petition.
Obviously most remain campaigners are not like this and are now prepared to find the best solution for the country, but the whole debacle makes me sick.

Unfortunately, regarding the decision itself, the fact there was no decision made over what will happen, what approach will be taken and who will oversee the process is regrettable. Personally I think Boris as a leading figure is simply too abrasive at the moment for the public to swallow. I think Gove should do it personally, sensible, and is open to all options includng the one I would favour: That is, not using Article 50 but transferring all EU laws into British legislature, and stripping them away as we want to. We should also focus on hammering out trade deals with key partners like the USA and Commonwealth countries like India and Canada to stabilise the markets as soon as possible. For me, October is too late for a takeover, it should be done by the end of August. Things need to be done, and no, we don't need to do them the EU's way. We should also focus on key EU partners like Germany and France later. Both countries have an increasing Eurosceptic views and France, crucially, have an election at the end of this year and we may find it far easier to work with their next government than the current one, and Germany will not be prepared to let its export market suffer for too long, considering that EU demand for its goods will also decrease as its economy will slump with the exit of the 5th largest economy in the world.

Regarding Gibraltar, we could simply disregard Spain. We can implement our own Gibraltar only visa which allows travel there for the Spanish workforce so Gib is not deprived. It has nothing to do with the Spanish government (which doesn't exist) and we should certainly not pass sovereignty over the island against its wishes.

And regarding Scotland, well, I thought at the time that if Ms Sturgeon really wanted Scotland to leave the Union, then she should have allowed England to vote in the referendum. The Scottish can scrounge off of the EU (if it exists) as opposed to us - they wanted to base their economy on oil. They will get what they deserve, Euro and trimmings included.

[cosmicway 1,333]

35 minutes ago, CurlyHairLikeLuiz said:

What I don't understand is that people seem to think that there will be zero immigration, or emigration to the EU in future will be banned.

It's called a visa; the process has gone on for years and years and anybody skilled can move to Europe is they choose as these countries will still want to attract talent. Most unskilled workers have no desire to leave Britain and similarly it works both ways, most don't want foreign labour to undercut the British market (which happens despite the minimum wage, many work under that money). That's the immigration argument; the key word is mass. Nigel Farage for example is vastly misrepresented by those that oppose him, he does not oppose all immigration nor does he hate foreigners (he has a German wife), and he also used to be a stockbroker, and was one of the chief victims of the ERM crisis. Immigrants should feel welcome in this country and what has been done to them as the occasion has been seized upon by the far right should incur severe penalties.

What bitter remainers are trying to do is portray Brexit voters as either racist, too 'old' to vote or somehow the 1 million majority was not decisive. Utterly disgusting, contempt of democracy makes you no better than the Bolsheviks post Russian Revolution 1917 or the Nazis manipulating the German parliament in order to install Hitler as Chancellor. I have no sympathy to those trying to do so with that stupid petition.
Obviously most remain campaigners are not like this and are now prepared to find the best solution for the country, but the whole debacle makes me sick.

Unfortunately, regarding the decision itself, the fact there was no decision made over what will happen, what approach will be taken and who will oversee the process is regrettable. Personally I think Boris as a leading figure is simply too abrasive at the moment for the public to swallow. I think Gove should do it personally, sensible, and is open to all options includng the one I would favour: That is, not using Article 50 but transferring all EU laws into British legislature, and stripping them away as we want to. We should also focus on hammering out trade deals with key partners like the USA and Commonwealth countries like India and Canada to stabilise the markets as soon as possible. For me, October is too late for a takeover, it should be done by the end of August. Things need to be done, and no, we don't need to do them the EU's way. We should also focus on key EU partners like Germany and France later. Both countries have an increasing Eurosceptic views and France, crucially, have an election at the end of this year and we may find it far easier to work with their next government than the current one, and Germany will not be prepared to let its export market suffer for too long, considering that EU demand for its goods will also decrease as its economy will slump with the exit of the 5th largest economy in the world.

Regarding Gibraltar, we could simply disregard Spain. We can implement our own Gibraltar only visa which allows travel there for the Spanish workforce so Gib is not deprived. It has nothing to do with the Spanish government (which doesn't exist) and we should certainly not pass sovereignty over the island against its wishes.

And regarding Scotland, well, I thought at the time that if Ms Sturgeon really wanted Scotland to leave the Union, then she should have allowed England to vote in the referendum. The Scottish can scrounge off of the EU (if it exists) as opposed to us - they wanted to base their economy on oil. They will get what they deserve, Euro and trimmings included.

That's true and false at the same time.
Immigration controls is basically a thing of the seventies.
We (GR) were not in the EU until 1980 but I have seen old letters of my father's former school students addressed to him from England in 1965. Those school students after university were employed by various firms. Then in the 70's things were strict, after the 80s it was free.
But the environment is kind of hostile sometimes.
At the time I had no idea. I vaguely remember a Greek newspaper in the mid sixties saying something about the graffitti "keep Britain white" in London streets. I thought this was an aberration, the work of some fringe elements.
But not so in reality. Some people even believed that foreigners from western countries represented a danger bigger than that of "international communism" - the scourge of cold war years.
How can one work and make progress like that ?
If the environment resembles Dachau concentration camp, because of the said mentalities.
it creates many diffculties.

[KevinAshburner 1,270]

Last Week Tonight With John Oliver: Brexit Update (HBO)

 

[cosmicway 1,333]

DIALOGUES OF OUR TIMES

Britannicus (brexit lover) - Bloody immigrants.
Europius (non-brexit lover) - Hey, knock it off !
Britannicus - Errr, yes of course, that's not what I meant. I mean we are concerned with the invisible Brussels dictatorship.
Europius - And what exactly do you mean by that ?
Britannicus - Errr, hmmm, bloody immigrants !

[kellzfresh 7,229]

Nearly 50 killed and dozens injured at Turkey's Ataturk airport in Istanbul. Why????

[geezers 9]

On 28/06/2016 at 0:39 AM, CurlyHairLikeLuiz said:

What I don't understand is that people seem to think that there will be zero immigration, or emigration to the EU in future will be banned.

It's called a visa; the process has gone on for years and years and anybody skilled can move to Europe is they choose as these countries will still want to attract talent. Most unskilled workers have no desire to leave Britain and similarly it works both ways, most don't want foreign labour to undercut the British market (which happens despite the minimum wage, many work under that money). That's the immigration argument; the key word is mass. Nigel Farage for example is vastly misrepresented by those that oppose him, he does not oppose all immigration nor does he hate foreigners (he has a German wife), and he also used to be a stockbroker, and was one of the chief victims of the ERM crisis. Immigrants should feel welcome in this country and what has been done to them as the occasion has been seized upon by the far right should incur severe penalties.

What bitter remainers are trying to do is portray Brexit voters as either racist, too 'old' to vote or somehow the 1 million majority was not decisive. Utterly disgusting, contempt of democracy makes you no better than the Bolsheviks post Russian Revolution 1917 or the Nazis manipulating the German parliament in order to install Hitler as Chancellor. I have no sympathy to those trying to do so with that stupid petition.
Obviously most remain campaigners are not like this and are now prepared to find the best solution for the country, but the whole debacle makes me sick.

Unfortunately, regarding the decision itself, the fact there was no decision made over what will happen, what approach will be taken and who will oversee the process is regrettable. Personally I think Boris as a leading figure is simply too abrasive at the moment for the public to swallow. I think Gove should do it personally, sensible, and is open to all options includng the one I would favour: That is, not using Article 50 but transferring all EU laws into British legislature, and stripping them away as we want to. We should also focus on hammering out trade deals with key partners like the USA and Commonwealth countries like India and Canada to stabilise the markets as soon as possible. For me, October is too late for a takeover, it should be done by the end of August. Things need to be done, and no, we don't need to do them the EU's way. We should also focus on key EU partners like Germany and France later. Both countries have an increasing Eurosceptic views and France, crucially, have an election at the end of this year and we may find it far easier to work with their next government than the current one, and Germany will not be prepared to let its export market suffer for too long, considering that EU demand for its goods will also decrease as its economy will slump with the exit of the 5th largest economy in the world.

Regarding Gibraltar, we could simply disregard Spain. We can implement our own Gibraltar only visa which allows travel there for the Spanish workforce so Gib is not deprived. It has nothing to do with the Spanish government (which doesn't exist) and we should certainly not pass sovereignty over the island against its wishes.

And regarding Scotland, well, I thought at the time that if Ms Sturgeon really wanted Scotland to leave the Union, then she should have allowed England to vote in the referendum. The Scottish can scrounge off of the EU (if it exists) as opposed to us - they wanted to base their economy on oil. They will get what they deserve, Euro and trimmings included.

^^^ little Englander found

Firstly, Nigel Farage is at very least a racist sympathiser. He revealed a poster featuring a line of Syrian refugees, something akin to Nazi propaganda. He has defended those in his party who are openly racist and blames immigrants for all the UK's problems. Stating he has a German wife is akin to the "some of my best friends are black" defence. Quite what relevance it is that he used to be a stockbroker I'm not sure.

Secondly, while I agree that the people have had their say and given we live in a democracy the result must stand, this doesn't change the fact that a significant proportion of leave voters were racist morons blaming immigrants for all their problems. Neither does it change that the baby boomers voted in their droves to leave, leaving everyone else to sort out this shit storm when they inevitably pop their cloggs in 5 to 10 years time.

Thirdly, whoever takes over as Prime Minister has no chance in hell of taking EU laws back "one by one". Article 50 must be invoked before anything happens in that regard, that much is clear. Meanwhile, trade deals are far harder to negotiate than leave voters care to admit, and quite why The Commonwealth is cited so often remains a mystery unless you still dream of the British Empire restoring the "glory days".

Fourthly, Gibraltar are the real victims here. They voted overwhelmingly to remain because they knew the problems this would create with the Spanish border (the same goes for the Northern Ireland situation). I feel sorry for them both and hope that neither country has to have border controls between their respective EU neighbours.

Lastly, it's nice to see you want us (Scotland) to be an independent country so much - there's another thing we agree on! By the way, Ms Nicola Sturgeon was not First Minister during the last referendum campaign and so had little say in whether England got a vote, however the reason it didn't happen is because it is a ludicrous suggestion, much like any suggestion that other EU countries should have had a say in this referendum. However we were fair enough to give British nationals and EU nationals living in Scotland a vote, unlike the UK Government not allowing EU nationals living in the UK to vote in this referendum. Also, Scotland does not scrounge off either the UK or the EU. Scotland is a net contributer to the UK and would be one of the richest countries in the EU if it were an independent country within it. There is far more to the Scottish economy than oil. Scotland is now more likely than ever to leave the UK as it wants to be an outward looking country within the EU, however I will feel sorry for the some of the more reasonable people in England and Wales who will be left surrounded by Daily Mail readers when the inevitable happens.

[CurlyHairLikeLuiz 1,625]

17 minutes ago, geezers said:

^^^ little Englander found

Firstly, Nigel Farage is at very least a racist sympathiser. He revealed a poster featuring a line of Syrian refugees, something akin to Nazi propaganda. He has defended those in his party who are openly racist and blames immigrants for all the UK's problems. Stating he has a German wife is akin to the "some of my best friends are black" defence. Quite what relevance it is that he used to be a stockbroker I'm not sure.

Secondly, while I agree that the people have had their say and given we live in a democracy the result must stand, this doesn't change the fact that a significant proportion of leave voters were racist morons blaming immigrants for all their problems. Neither does it change that the baby boomers voted in their droves to leave, leaving everyone else to sort out this shit storm when they inevitably pop their cloggs in 5 to 10 years time.

Thirdly, whoever takes over as Prime Minister has no chance in hell of taking EU laws back "one by one". Article 50 must be invoked before anything happens in that regard, that much is clear. Meanwhile, trade deals are far harder to negotiate than leave voters care to admit, and quite why The Commonwealth is cited so often remains a mystery unless you still dream of the British Empire restoring the "glory days".

Fourthly, Gibraltar are the real victims here. They voted overwhelmingly to remain because they knew the problems this would create with the Spanish border (the same goes for the Northern Ireland situation). I feel sorry for them both and hope that neither country has to have border controls between their respective EU neighbours.

Lastly, it's nice to see you want us (Scotland) to be an independent country so much - there's another thing we agree on! By the way, Ms Nicola Sturgeon was not First Minister during the last referendum campaign and so had little say in whether England got a vote, however the reason it didn't happen is because it is a ludicrous suggestion, much like any suggestion that other EU countries should have had a say in this referendum. However we were fair enough to give British nationals and EU nationals living in Scotland a vote, unlike the UK Government not allowing EU nationals living in the UK to vote in this referendum. Also, Scotland does not scrounge off either the UK or the EU. Scotland is a net contributer to the UK and would be one of the richest countries in the EU if it were an independent country within it. There is far more to the Scottish economy than oil. Scotland is now more likely than ever to leave the UK as it wants to be an outward looking country within the EU, however I will feel sorry for the some of the more reasonable people in England and Wales who will be left surrounded by Daily Mail readers when the inevitable happens.

Label me all you want mate, I don't care.

Farage is not a racist, in any sense of the word. In fact, the immigration system he proposes is actually fairer to ethnic minority immigrants than the current system is; as it will view them equally as opposed to treating them as 'less useful' compared to the (overwhelmingly white) European labour market.  What you're trying to imply is that he's racist just because some of his voters are. I know what a racist is, my dad is extremely racist and therefore I can tell you in confidence that neither Nigel nor Ukip is a racist person/party. As for having a European wife, well, you wouldn't marry somebody that you'd spit on would you?

He was a commodities trader - he knows economic principles, that is my point. Most of the current economic turmoil is because the markets are based upon speculation; and the Remain campaign's scaremongering has spooked the stockmarkets. This was largely your campaign's own doing.

I won't deny that Brexit is a leap into the dark, but we can shape our future purely through our own actions. The Commonwealth is mentioned because we can readily re establish our links with them - Canada, the US and India have already expressed interest in agreeing a trade deal with us. Once again, this vote was not for isolation. That is the single biggest lie of te Remain campaign; the aim of Brexit is to stop facing inward towards Europe and engage with the rest of the world, which we will do. Plus do you really think the EU is going to cut off its nose to spite its face? We will get our trade deal. It won't be as favourable as a completely free market but that's the price the majority of the electorate is willing to pay in order to connect with the rest of the world. Switzerland has $33 trillion of trade deals with other countries. The EU has $8 trillion. Anyway, Euroscepticism is flowing throughout Europe and therefore countries won't treat us too harshly in case the same happens to them.

Furthermore, I don't buy the idea that young people are overwhelmingly in favour of the EU. The figure of 70% voting to Remain is a compelling one, *but* there is no mention that that was based on a 40% turnout. This gives me the impression that actually most young people don't care, because they certainly didn't care enough to vote.

Britain has never played by the EU's rules, I don't see why the government needs to start now. You misunderstood. What we could do is write all current EU laws into UK law, repal the Acts of 1972 that give the ECJ supremecy over British courts and then the Lisbon Treaty which effectively takes us out of Europe - no Article 50 needed. Then Parliament can just amend the Bill of EU directives to gradually remove the laws we don't want and keep the ones we want, for example keeping the Working Time Directive but disposing of the Common Fisheries Policy.

Gibraltar are not a victim. Once again, we can just give Spanish nationals Gibraltar specific work visas as to preserve Gib's workforce.

No, I know Sturgeon was not FM at the time, but I just got a bit muddled with my tenses. I'm not saying that English people should actually have a vote, I was just saying that most English people aren't too bothered about Scotland leaving. Don't get me wrong, I respect your opinion - we're both entitled to one, and Scotland's economy might be more favourably looked upon funding wise by the EU if you join it as a new country. I don't know, I look at it from an English perspective. But I will say you won't get the best of both worlds - for example, even if the EU allows you to keep the pound, I highly doubt the Bank of England will. And as the past year has shown, basing your economy on oil (as Salmond unashamedly wanted) would have been very, very bad.

 

 

 

[Fulham Broadway 17,299]

Raheem Sterling abstained from the EU vote

 

He said hes shit at putting a cross in the box

[geezers 9]

15 hours ago, CurlyHairLikeLuiz said:

Label me all you want mate, I don't care.

Farage is not a racist, in any sense of the word. In fact, the immigration system he proposes is actually fairer to ethnic minority immigrants than the current system is; as it will view them equally as opposed to treating them as 'less useful' compared to the (overwhelmingly white) European labour market.  What you're trying to imply is that he's racist just because some of his voters are. I know what a racist is, my dad is extremely racist and therefore I can tell you in confidence that neither Nigel nor Ukip is a racist person/party. As for having a European wife, well, you wouldn't marry somebody that you'd spit on would you?

He was a commodities trader - he knows economic principles, that is my point. Most of the current economic turmoil is because the markets are based upon speculation; and the Remain campaign's scaremongering has spooked the stockmarkets. This was largely your campaign's own doing.

I won't deny that Brexit is a leap into the dark, but we can shape our future purely through our own actions. The Commonwealth is mentioned because we can readily re establish our links with them - Canada, the US and India have already expressed interest in agreeing a trade deal with us. Once again, this vote was not for isolation. That is the single biggest lie of te Remain campaign; the aim of Brexit is to stop facing inward towards Europe and engage with the rest of the world, which we will do. Plus do you really think the EU is going to cut off its nose to spite its face? We will get our trade deal. It won't be as favourable as a completely free market but that's the price the majority of the electorate is willing to pay in order to connect with the rest of the world. Switzerland has $33 trillion of trade deals with other countries. The EU has $8 trillion. Anyway, Euroscepticism is flowing throughout Europe and therefore countries won't treat us too harshly in case the same happens to them.

Furthermore, I don't buy the idea that young people are overwhelmingly in favour of the EU. The figure of 70% voting to Remain is a compelling one, *but* there is no mention that that was based on a 40% turnout. This gives me the impression that actually most young people don't care, because they certainly didn't care enough to vote.

Britain has never played by the EU's rules, I don't see why the government needs to start now. You misunderstood. What we could do is write all current EU laws into UK law, repal the Acts of 1972 that give the ECJ supremecy over British courts and then the Lisbon Treaty which effectively takes us out of Europe - no Article 50 needed. Then Parliament can just amend the Bill of EU directives to gradually remove the laws we don't want and keep the ones we want, for example keeping the Working Time Directive but disposing of the Common Fisheries Policy.

Gibraltar are not a victim. Once again, we can just give Spanish nationals Gibraltar specific work visas as to preserve Gib's workforce.

No, I know Sturgeon was not FM at the time, but I just got a bit muddled with my tenses. I'm not saying that English people should actually have a vote, I was just saying that most English people aren't too bothered about Scotland leaving. Don't get me wrong, I respect your opinion - we're both entitled to one, and Scotland's economy might be more favourably looked upon funding wise by the EU if you join it as a new country. I don't know, I look at it from an English perspective. But I will say you won't get the best of both worlds - for example, even if the EU allows you to keep the pound, I highly doubt the Bank of England will. And as the past year has shown, basing your economy on oil (as Salmond unashamedly wanted) would have been very, very bad.

You can use the "fairer immigration system" shtick all you like, no one is buying it. The purpose of a leave vote was to reduce immigration and Farage played that card to win as many votes as possible. Just because you know some racist people doesn't mean that you have the final say on who is racist in this world and who is not. Farage played the immigrant card in this referendum, as he always has done to try win votes. The Syrian refugee poster he revealed was absolutely disgusting  (you ignored that point - conveniently) and something reminiscent of 1930s Europe. He has defended both members and supporters of his party who have came out with racist remarks, time and time again. He is a racist. Shouting "some of my best friends are foreigners!" does not change a thing. Quite why spitting on someone is seen as the barometer for racism I'm not sure.

A lot of the initial turmoil will recover eventually. Markets react incredibly sensitively to expectations and so obviously everything went to shit on Friday when no one had any clue as to what was going to happen. However it will take a while before certainty is restored and so markets will continue to be below their pre-Brexit levels for some time. It is also worth mentioning the lasting damage this could do to the financial services sector as the EU along with many bus8ness is almost certain to move its operations. I was no fan of the scaremongering from the remain camp. Some of it was true however a load of toffs from the Tory party telling everyone the sky will fall in if this, this and that happens has got to be one of the worst political campaigns in living memory. I know what it's like to be on the opposite side of all that scaremongering so I will be one of the first to condemn it (unfortunately people north of the border seemed to lap it up much more easily).

The more intelligent people in leave (I know you aren't all racists) may have ideas of this being an outward looking vote (although it is still surely better to have a market on your doorstep rather than one with those halfway across the world). However given the way the leave campaign was fought and those who voted leave, the UK attempting to globalise itself now would likely go down like a cup of cold sick with many leave voters, as would the UK and EU retaining free movement of people between each other. Eurosceptic flowing throughout Europe is the exact reason the political elite in Brussels are likely to treat us very harshly! They will want to make an example of us to try stem the tide of further countries leaving. And Switzerland is a completely void example. It is a tax haven and so has many of the world's rich pumping their money into it for that reason, it is nothing like the UK.

Regardless of turnout (all that does is suggest many young people are not turned on politically - nothing new really), an overwhelming majority of young people who take any sort of interest in current affairs and/or politics voted to remain.

If we we were to fanny about picking at rules one by one the EU would despise us for wasting their time. Goodbye friendly trade.

They are a victim though, regardless of visas their free movement with Spain will not be the same. The same goes for Northern Ireland (something that is criminally barely being spoken of at a national level). This result actually has the potential to be dangerous in Northern Ireland. You have the DUP union jack waving simpletons who only voted to leave because "Rule Brittania", as there is genuinely no way a leave vote could possibly help Northern Ireland. Meanwhile republicans are now calling for a border poll and we have the possibility of border controls coming back. Is that the 1980s calling back?

Personally I'm in favour of a new currency if it does happen however many talks will be needed with the EU before anyone has a scooby what the terms of re-entry or staying will be. Salmond has done an awful lot for the SNP and the Yes cause over the years, however his stumbling block two years ago was indeed currency and reliance on oil. While oil is a significant part of the Scottish economy there is much more to it than that and not enough was made of this during the campaign. Salmond knows his economics and I don't for a second think he was planning on basing the entire economy on oil however the No camp played that card and it won. Sturgeon will hopefully have learned from his mistakes and is also a much more appealing personality to the masses than the love-or-hate figure Salmond is.

[CurlyHairLikeLuiz 1,625]

2 hours ago, geezers said:

You can use the "fairer immigration system" shtick all you like, no one is buying it. The purpose of a leave vote was to reduce immigration and Farage played that card to win as many votes as possible. Just because you know some racist people doesn't mean that you have the final say on who is racist in this world and who is not. Farage played the immigrant card in this referendum, as he always has done to try win votes. The Syrian refugee poster he revealed was absolutely disgusting  (you ignored that point - conveniently) and something reminiscent of 1930s Europe. He has defended both members and supporters of his party who have came out with racist remarks, time and time again. He is a racist. Shouting "some of my best friends are foreigners!" does not change a thing. Quite why spitting on someone is seen as the barometer for racism I'm not sure.

I don't think we're ever going to agree on this. In my opinion reducing immigration is not racism. The economic argument for immigration is sound, but mass immigration causes the social fabric of society to rip apart; lots of ghettoisation has occured over the years in places like Dagenham and it breeds hatred, and nationalist tendencies. Immigration is good, but too much (and equally too little) is not. Farage is not a racist, in any definition except the warped Left wing one which used to be used to keep white people quiet. To be honest his party is being used as a beacon for the wrong kinds of people and while it has served its purpose (UKIP did force the referendum, after all!) he would be taken far more seriously if he went to the Conservatives. No, I don't have complete authority over what is or isn't racist, but neither do you and having experienced racism first hand I use that as my definition. Perhaps I'm wrong, it is entirely possible I've just been desensitised to lower forms of racism. The poster was a lapse of judgment, but he doesn't make his own propaganda and I think the bloke that came up with it probably got a good talking to.

2 hours ago, geezers said:

A lot of the initial turmoil will recover eventually. Markets react incredibly sensitively to expectations and so obviously everything went to shit on Friday when no one had any clue as to what was going to happen. However it will take a while before certainty is restored and so markets will continue to be below their pre-Brexit levels for some time. It is also worth mentioning the lasting damage this could do to the financial services sector as the EU along with many bus8ness is almost certain to move its operations. I was no fan of the scaremongering from the remain camp. Some of it was true however a load of toffs from the Tory party telling everyone the sky will fall in if this, this and that happens has got to be one of the worst political campaigns in living memory. I know what it's like to be on the opposite side of all that scaremongering so I will be one of the first to condemn it (unfortunately people north of the border seemed to lap it up much more easily).

Yes, they did the same during your referendum campaign. The difference being that England has been subjected to this negative attitude for so long that I think the electorate simply chose to ignore it. Although it did make me laugh when Remain campaigners who wanted to crucify the City during the recession were now many of the people trying to urge people to listen to it.

2 hours ago, geezers said:

The more intelligent people in leave (I know you aren't all racists) may have ideas of this being an outward looking vote (although it is still surely better to have a market on your doorstep rather than one with those halfway across the world). However given the way the leave campaign was fought and those who voted leave, the UK attempting to globalise itself now would likely go down like a cup of cold sick with many leave voters, as would the UK and EU retaining free movement of people between each other. Eurosceptic flowing throughout Europe is the exact reason the political elite in Brussels are likely to treat us very harshly! They will want to make an example of us to try stem the tide of further countries leaving. And Switzerland is a completely void example. It is a tax haven and so has many of the world's rich pumping their money into it for that reason, it is nothing like the UK.

Well, I'm glad Boris is not running. Gove represented exactly what I wanted from Leave, I would definitely trust him to do what's right (in my opinion). I'm not for the Norway option, if we go for that we might as well have stayed in. I'm not expecting to have my cake and eat it, to trade with the EU will likely involve a tariff but we can certainly negotiate something better than 10% which is the normal going rate. Yes, it could be viewed like that but countries like France, the converse may occur - Eurosceptic feeling is high there and therefore giving the UK an unfavourable deal would be like a shot to the foot, as in the event that they leave, they will probably get the same deal. Plus Germany calls the shots in the EU; and if it imposes a bad deal on the UK it would cause loss of jobs there. Combined with deals with other countries around the world like India, we may well come out stronger than when we were in. I'm pretty sure there was another figure for Iceland which I heard in a TV debate, but I can't remember now. My point is that where one closes a door, another opens; a lot of countries will see this as a good opportunity to get a favourable deal with the 5th largest economy in the world.

2 hours ago, geezers said:

If we we were to fanny about picking at rules one by one the EU would despise us for wasting their time. Goodbye friendly trade.

Not quite. By the point we were to start stripping rules away from the Bill, for all intents and purposes we would be outside of the EU. It'd be a far quicker exit process than 2 years.

2 hours ago, geezers said:

They are a victim though, regardless of visas their free movement with Spain will not be the same. The same goes for Northern Ireland (something that is criminally barely being spoken of at a national level). This result actually has the potential to be dangerous in Northern Ireland. You have the DUP union jack waving simpletons who only voted to leave because "Rule Brittania", as there is genuinely no way a leave vote could possibly help Northern Ireland. Meanwhile republicans are now calling for a border poll and we have the possibility of border controls coming back. Is that the 1980s calling back?

I expect there will have to be a decision made whether Northern Ireland (for the people) whether they favour further integration with the Union and for all intents and purposes just become 'Northern Ireland County Council' or if they would prefer to join with Ireland and remain in the EU. Both would have their benefits, but I can't comment further because quite frankly I don't have enough knowledge on the NI perspective or the issues facing it. Regarding Gibraltar and NI, I think we'll just have to see what happens, but the UK can certainly make it as painless as possible for both countries (Irish passport holders for example would still be eligible for free movement as before the EEC) and it won't be the disaster as advertised.

2 hours ago, geezers said:

Personally I'm in favour of a new currency if it does happen however many talks will be needed with the EU before anyone has a scooby what the terms of re-entry or staying will be. Salmond has done an awful lot for the SNP and the Yes cause over the years, however his stumbling block two years ago was indeed currency and reliance on oil. While oil is a significant part of the Scottish economy there is much more to it than that and not enough was made of this during the campaign. Salmond knows his economics and I don't for a second think he was planning on basing the entire economy on oil however the No camp played that card and it won. Sturgeon will hopefully have learned from his mistakes and is also a much more appealing personality to the masses than the love-or-hate figure Salmond is.

By "New Currency" I assume you mean a Scottish pound in the literal sense. I think one reason why Scotland voted to remain is because one of the key Leave points (mass immigration) does not apply (at the same extent as England) to Scotland. It is a mainly England focussed point. I think that, however, there would have to be a more vibrant economic manifesto in order for an independence vote to succeed: Basing an economy on a finite commodity (and also how much actually goes to Scotland; Many of the ways of dividing it up favoured England & Wales) was never going to be a vote winner because it can be exploited by the opposition so easily.

I just can't see the EU removing the Euro from any entry deal, otherwise existing Eurozone countries would see leaving and rejoining as a way to get rid of it, unless Brexit significantly changes their view towards federalisation - entirely possible, but I wouldn't bet on it.