Politics & Stuff

[TorontoChelsea 4,064]

Ok,, let's think this through. Fake may have been a too strong wording (im not a native speaker), lets bring it to fake use (we call it 'oneigenlijk gebruik' which really doesn't translate in English. fake use would come closest, so i used the word fake). My main source for this is Susan Sontag, 'On Photography', in Silvers, Robert (ed.) The First Anthology. 30 Years of The New York Review of Books, New York, 1993 But then again you make a very similar sin when starting like this:

After my next posts you ditch that argument and you minimize my sources

Then you ease it up a little more

So don't attack me and call me an idiot who only looks for internet scraps, because that is simply a lie. Anyway, how can you know that. I guess using too strong wording is NOT only my sin, right? Let's take it from the beginning, because just like with Choulo and the end of the Israel debate, where you - again - jumped on the wagon very soon with very firm accusations, I believe you did with mine.

1. The use of your sources yourself: you revert to websites without any acclaim yourself to 'debunk' my thesis. While I at least had an academic (albeit Belgian source) while I recall the same stipulation about the use of 'changed' photo material In Saul Friedländer.

2. My thesis was that those pics are indeed pics of actual events (in Warschau and the other in Ivangorod) but they are changed to better fit a narrative - the narrative that better explained the Holocaust: that every german is a willing killing machine, even for children. You might think I am being moronic again, but alas I am not.

E.g. In the museum for deportation and resistance in Mechelen, here in Belgium that explicitly uses that HALF pic as its main image during the exposition. When asked why by historians, the answer is that the image in close up is much stronger and better represents the german min set at the time (own correspondence of G. Vandenberghe with the museum).

E.G. 2: Even in Goldhagens 'willing executioners' book, the pic is cropped - de facto turning into a individualistic zoom picture focussing on a child being protected by a mother while adding the subscript 'In front of a photographer a German soldier takes aim...'(is it a mother? can you actually tell that?) Goldhagen was criticized on this point but deliberately left it unchanged in other editions. You would not suspect this from a historian. Why did he do this if 'historical correctness' is his main concern? To make sure very one is even more convinced of the atrocities of the holocaust?

Alas, these practices had the opposite effect - and this was my entire point. Holocaust deniers have very willingly used these altered pictures to make a case AGAINST the holocaust. An example:

beeldfoto11.jpg

By the 'oneigenlijke gebruik' of the photo it made people like Faurisson the Holocaust denier it is actually a picture from 1941 and there are polish people on it, not jews. He also adds that the germans are not trying to shoot the people but instead are protecting them. I'll see in advance, before you jump on you high horse, that I resent these tactics. That is exactly why I feel it utterly unnecessary to use these pics in the WRONG way because they look more dramatically/iconic altered, because it gives the holocaust deniers exactly what they need.

The other picture, the boy in Warschau, was also zoomed in. Suddenly you when you unzoom you see it in the context of people being deported away to Treblinka (they even have their backs with them - so they must have believed there was still hope). That iconic crop however had an even funnier effect, people started to recognize that boy and claimed he was still alive - a clear hoax:

beeldfoto18.jpg

Here it was a london business man that thought he was the boy, other more recent examples are Zvi Nussbaum, who also claimed to be the boy even though he never was in the getto. Again the holocaust deniers used this and other photo manipulations to make a case against the number of gassings in Treblinka and thus minimizing the Holocaust.

Why would a deliberate 'dramatization' of an already dramatic and horrible event be needed, especially if you give arguments to those of bad intent....

I could go on and on, but i Will not.

I take very much offense with the fact you do not even TRY to get my point and just start with degrading insults - idiot, racist, ridiculous .... I says a lot about a man's true face. I think have seen yours.

You knew exactly what you were saying when you used the word "fake". Your English is fine and if you can words like "acclaim" and "hoax" you know what fake means and "fake" is not even close to what you claim you are trying to say. It's not "strong wording". It's an offensive lie. And why bring up this topic which is ridiculous anyway? The photos are not faked or manipulated. Holocaust deniers don't need cropped photos to pursue their nonsense.. So what if some people claim to be the boy? How does that in any way diminish the impact of the Holocaust? You really think there is someone saying "Someone is claiming to be the boy, so the Holocaust was a lie? How does it do anything? It is very easy, in fact, to confront deniers because the facts are endless but there is no point because if someone denies it, they are not interested in reality or facts or evidence.. Faurrison is not a denier because he lied about a picture, but because he is a bigot. facts don't matter to him at all and a cropped photo makes 0.0% difference to that. Do you think that showing that a photo was cropped has made one single person in the world say "hey, the Holocaust was real? or helped one iota with Holocaust denial? Of course not. So, what's the point? The photographer Eddie Adams said "Still photographs are the most powerful weapon in the world. People believe them, but photographs do lie, even without manipulation.". Everyone knows that. Why go back to the Holocaust to try to find these photos which are not manipulated (and then lie and say they were).

I am looking at just a few pages back of your earlier writing about the Middle East on here and I am sorry I missed it. It's hilarious! The 1967 war was caused by Israel cutting off water supplies? Wow. That is amazing. Heard a lot of different explanations (it was, in fact, complicated) but never heard that one either. Which insignificant source did you pull that one from? Look up "The Johnston plan of 1955" (otherwise known as the Jordan Valley Unified Water Plan). There was a deal in place signed by all the parties involved but the Arab League backed out (except Jordan) and planned to divert water from Israel. The OPPOSITE of what you claim. Not the casus belli anyway but that's more complicated and has all sorts of factors like bad soviet intelligence. And you have Benny Morris saying exactly the opposite of what he actually believes about Plan Dalet too! How did you manage to do that? Wow. This is fun. Please tell me you've done the Olmert Hamas quote somewhere too. I can't imagine you could pass that one up. Also, lots of Ilan Pappe please. I am 100% sure you are a huge fan. (And I bet you pretend he is a mainstream historian too) I am sure I could guess the 25 quotes you love best .I know you. I have seen thousands exactly like you all over the internet. Pretending to be a student of history, a curious observer rather than someone who pulls the exact same 25 out of context quotes that you all use in order to justify your pathological obsession with Israel.

[Stingray 9,441]

You knew exactly what you were saying when you used the word "fake". Your English is fine and if you can words like "acclaim" and "hoax" you know what fake means and "fake" is not even close to what you claim you are trying to say. It's not "strong wording". It's an offensive lie. And why bring up this topic which is ridiculous anyway? The photos are not faked or manipulated. Holocaust deniers don't need cropped photos to pursue their nonsense.. So what if some people claim to be the boy? How does that in any way diminish the impact of the Holocaust? You really think there is someone saying "Someone is claiming to be the boy, so the Holocaust was a lie? How does it do anything? It is very easy, in fact, to confront deniers because the facts are endless but there is no point because if someone denies it, they are not interested in reality or facts or evidence.. Faurrison is not a denier because he lied about a picture, but because he is a bigot. facts don't matter to him at all and a cropped photo makes 0.0% difference to that. Do you think that showing that a photo was cropped has made one single person in the world say "hey, the Holocaust was real? or helped one iota with Holocaust denial? Of course not. So, what's the point? The photographer Eddie Adams said "Still photographs are the most powerful weapon in the world. People believe them, but photographs do lie, even without manipulation.". Everyone knows that. Why go back to the Holocaust to try to find these photos which are not manipulated (and then lie and say they were).

I am looking at just a few pages back of your earlier writing about the Middle East on here and I am sorry I missed it. It's hilarious! The 1967 war was caused by Israel cutting off water supplies? Wow. That is amazing. Heard a lot of different explanations (it was, in fact, complicated) but never heard that one either. Which insignificant source did you pull that one from? Look up "The Johnston plan of 1955" (otherwise known as the Jordan Valley Unified Water Plan). There was a deal in place signed by all the parties involved but the Arab League backed out (except Jordan) and planned to divert water from Israel. The OPPOSITE of what you claim. Not the casus belli anyway but that's more complicated and has all sorts of factors like bad soviet intelligence. And you have Benny Morris saying exactly the opposite of what he actually believes about Plan Dalet too! How did you manage to do that? Wow. This is fun. Please tell me you've done the Olmert Hamas quote somewhere too. I can't imagine you could pass that one up. Also, lots of Ilan Pappe please. I am 100% sure you are a huge fan. (And I bet you pretend he is a mainstream historian too) I am sure I could guess the 25 quotes you love best .I know you. I have seen thousands exactly like you all over the internet. Pretending to be a student of history, a curious observer rather than someone who pulls the exact same 25 out of context quotes that you all use in order to justify your pathological obsession with Israel.

Lol. Feel free to block me then, mister big shot. I don't care tbh. I never pretend to be a historian. I do care about humanitarian crises though. I see a lot of insulting from you, but rarely a good source. That says enough...

Bye bye you rude asshole.

[Kieran. 6,317]

Nvm

[TorontoChelsea 4,064]

Lol. Feel free to block me then, mister big shot. I don't care tbh. I never pretend to be a historian. I do care about humanitarian crises though. I see a lot of insulting from you, but ratelt a good source. That says enough...

Sources are needed to back up controversial ideas, exceptional claims, or when you want to quote directly from a source-NOT when discussing general common knowledge or widely accepted truths. For example "Churchill was the Prime Minister of Britain" needs no source but "Churchill was angry at Edward for abdicating" needs a source because he was not publicly angry (or if you wanted to quote one his recently declassified letters on the subject). Why should I, for example, source the Johnson Report? It is out in the open, a mater of historical record. It is up to you to source credible sources to disprove it which you can't because there are none because you are just pulling information that suits your worldview from the internet rather than looking for historical accuracy. But even quotes and sources aren't enough if they are 1) out of context or misrepresenting the source;s actual beliefs 2) in the extreme minority 3) Not of sufficient historical quality or believably . Otherwise, you can pick and choose quotes to make any argument as so many do Anyway, if you are actually interested, just go to Wikipedia and look up their sources (because they actually do source things there).

[hjperdeath 2,226]

As soon as Erdogan won his presidential elections, he ordered to start transporting injured individuals from Gaza to hospitals in Turkey.

What a man. If Israel were so worried about civilians, they would have done this long ago.

[Kieran. 6,317]

What's happening in Ferguson continues to prove the racism in this "post-racial" society where people go through hurdles to avoid talking about race. Aka the Trayvon Martin murder.

[TorontoChelsea 4,064]

What's happening in Ferguson continues to prove the racism in this "post-racial" society where people go through hurdles to avoid talking about race. Aka the Trayvon Martin murder.

It is actually fascinating on so many levels. It's a whole bunch of big American problems coming together. Systemic racism, the militarization of the police, and the over-criminilization of everything (A woman got arrested for swearing in front of her kids last week but that's nothing compared to the way the illness of drug addiction has been criminilized.)

Have you seen the weapons a small town police force has? It is insane and scary. The pictures of Ferguson show, not a police force, but an army. A good piece...

http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/politics/2014/08/police_in_ferguson_military_weapons_threaten_protesters.html

[CHOULO19 24,332]

but that's nothing compared to the way the illness of drug addiction has been criminilized

Tbf, that's not just an American problem. I once got into a fight with my English teacher for telling her that drug addicts should be accepted into society not thrown in jail.

[TorontoChelsea 4,064]

Tbf, that's not just an American problem. I once got into a fight with my English teacher for telling her that drug addicts should be accepted into society not thrown in jail.

It isn't just an American problem for sure but it is much bigger in the US. Everything is a big business of sorts in the States and the prison system is no different. The incarceration rate in the US is the highest in the world (over 6X that of Lebanon for example) and most of that is bullshit drugs charges..For example, the ACLU in 2010 published a study that showed that "between 2001 and 2010 there were 8.2M arrests for Marijuana, 88% of which were for possession". That is 7.2 MILLION arrests on Marijuana possession charges in a decade. It's a disgrace.

[CHOULO19 24,332]

It isn't just an American problem for sure but it is much bigger in the US. Everything is a big business of sorts in the States and the prison system is no different. The incarceration rate in the US is the highest in the world (over 6X that of Lebanon for example) and most of that is bullshit drugs charges..For example, the ACLU in 2010 published a study that showed that "between 2001 and 2010 there were 8.2M arrests for Marijuana, 88% of which were for possession". That is 7.2 MILLION arrests on Marijuana possession charges in a decade. It's a disgrace.

Wow, that's a lot! Even here in Lebanon you'd get a lot of leniency for possession of weed even though it's against the law.

[iseah100 5,612]

Wow, that's a lot! Even here in Lebanon you'd get a lot of leniency for possession of weed even though it's against the law.

Yea, they're bitches about it here.

[Kieran. 6,317]

forgive the screenshot from my phone, but...

[Fulham Broadway 17,333]

Just saw the news about that guy the cops murdered in Missouri.

The latest the cops are saying is that he was a robbery suspect. Ok I thought, bank robber ? Security van heist ? No, a convenience store. The news had four grainy stills from cctv.Ok held it up with a firearm and escaped with the tills guts I thought ? No apparently he had allegedly grabbed a packet of sweet cigars, and passed it to his mate. Hardened crime, ffs.

It just shows they are using the media, if you dont read the full story to justify shooting an innocent man.

Racist USA in 2014. If youre black, and dont have a high school diploma, youre more likely to be in prison than have a job.

[Kieran. 6,317]

I'm half Indian, half white and I have white privilege through my father being European. While I never would try to talk over black people and their experiences in this racist ass society, being a person of color in America has been a struggle and I think a white person who downplays racism needs to listen the fuck up because of their position in society.

[Fulham Broadway 17,333]

Incarcerated blacks in the US is a huge industry as well. Loads of free labour for corporates.

[Kieran. 6,317]

Incarcerated blacks in the US is a huge industry as well. Loads of free labour for corporates.

Prison for profit needs to be destroyed.

[TorontoChelsea 4,064]

I'm half Indian, half white and I have white privilege through my father being European. While I never would try to talk over black people and their experiences in this racist ass society, being a person of color in America has been a struggle and I think a white person who downplays racism needs to listen the fuck up because of their position in society.

I think this is true of all bigotry. I'll use a very common example, we men have no idea what it is like to be a woman and the difficulties they face in society. As a man, I have never been afraid of going out by myself at night, never thought about covering my drink up in bars, never had disgusting people raping me with their eyes on a daily basis, never thought I wouldn't get promoted because of my sex, Etc.. I am not saying every claim of racism or sexism is automatically true, just that I see way too many people in places of privilege telling people they are being too sensitive or overreacting. BTW, I saw a poll-Republicans think "reverse racism" is a bigger issue than racism" as if 11 white people not getting into the college of their choice is a more egregious injustiice than systemic racism which punishes millions.

[Kieran. 6,317]

I think this is true of all bigotry. I'll use a very common example, we men have no idea what it is like to be a woman and the difficulties they face in society. As a man, I have never been afraid of going out by myself at night, never thought about covering my drink up in bars, never had disgusting people raping me with their eyes on a daily basis, never thought I wouldn't get promoted because of my sex, Etc.. I am not saying every claim of racism or sexism is automatically true, just that I see way too many people in places of privilege telling people they are being too sensitive or overreacting. BTW, I saw a poll-Republicans think "reverse racism" is a bigger issue than racism" as if 11 white people not getting into the college of their choice is a more egregious injustiice than systemic racism which punishes millions.

Very very true. Men must listen to women, cisgender people must listen to Transgender people, and white people must listen to people of color.

[iseah100 5,612]

Just saw the news about that guy the cops murdered in Missouri.

The latest the cops are saying is that he was a robbery suspect. Ok I thought, bank robber ? Security van heist ? No, a convenience store. The news had four grainy stills from cctv.Ok held it up with a firearm and escaped with the tills guts I thought ? No apparently he had allegedly grabbed a packet of sweet cigars, and passed it to his mate. Hardened crime, ffs.

It just shows they are using the media, if you dont read the full story to justify shooting an innocent man.

Racist USA in 2014. If youre black, and dont have a high school diploma, youre more likely to be in prison than have a job.

The worst part is, the cop who shot him, didn't even know he was a robbery suspect. And he shot 10 times. Excessive, no?

I'm half Indian, half white and I have white privilege through my father being European. While I never would try to talk over black people and their experiences in this racist ass society, being a person of color in America has been a struggle and I think a white person who downplays racism needs to listen the fuck up because of their position in society.

Eh, I'm mexican and where I live, racism is not a big deal at all. I've never experienced it in my life. I'm Mexican, but still.

[Fulham Broadway 17,333]

The worst part is, the cop who shot him, didn't even know he was a robbery suspect. And he shot 10 times. Excessive, no?

Eh, I'm mexican and where I live, racism is not a big deal at all. I've never experienced it in my life. I'm Mexican, but still.

How many times has this happened now ? Always a black bloke getting done.

The cop that shot him didnt even know about the robbery, so a pathetic attempt at smoke and mirrors.

I think there is institutionalised racism towards mexicans and hispanics in LA and Orange County area when I was there. Eg queues outside Home Depot and other stores 5 am in the morning , people desperate for work, food etc nearly all were hispanics. Heard some derogatory comments as well