Politics & Stuff

[Mohammed Seif 1,451]

Thanks for the very detailed reply Mohammed. Very insightful. You're right though in saying that if you're not strong as a person in your faith, that it definitely is easy to get corrupted by them. If you don't know your Bible/Quran/Torah then yes, this is a real possibility.

It still really, really surprised me though, especially in regards to the previously anti-jihadist one. Many Muslims at school and college looked up to him because he seemed very knowledgeable about the Quran and all the Hadith teachings. Many of those immediately went to his Facebook page after the news broke out and started blasting him, complaining how they all looked up to him and how he's betrayed them and stuff, it was quite sad to see. I still find it very odd right now.

You see if he is knowledgeable but not strong enough as far as morals and principles ( I am not talking about the Islamic only but the humanitarian golden rule about treating others the way you want to be treated), there is a verse in the Quran that is always used to exploit that. Specifically a verse that directly says ( and I am puting the translation) " Obey God and His Prophet and those of you who are in charge/more knowledgeable". This is a key verse radicals use and really someone who is of knowledge but limited view can be pinned with. So basically they tell him God ordered us to fight all non Muslims (which is totally out of context and inaccurate). He then puts a Hadith to support it. And Challenges him to know better than himself (as far as verses and hadiths and knowledge are concerned). Most people fall into that. It is a verse that if misinterpreted and out of context demands total obedience.

That was used against me in a lot of group discussions. I saw people not responding back. They even try to convince you that you should take religion the way it is, word for word. And that you should not try to think much because that will lead you to misguidance. If you take the verse out of context and ignore the rest of the versus, their argument would be solid from a Quranic point of view. So people give in. But if you intellectually challenge them and show the many contradictions (which are really clear) in what they claim, they will definitely back off. They will avoid talking to you and will make others avoid you as well. I don't know what exactly happened to your friend. But I can imagine a lot of scenarios and the arguments put against him.

[Stingray 9,441]

What the heck your talking about men.

I was asking him what is his view.

My view is not that they are brute.

I was asking why the need for dictatorship? Because the people are brutes?

So it was a question to him not to you!

You seem a bit pissed off because i answered you. If you make a statement, why can't i address it? IThe way you formulated your statement was implying you thought that f they aren't ready democracy, they are brutes.

Also, keep your parties on, 'man'. This is a debate on a forum, not a fight.

[Fernando 6,378]

You seem a bit pissed off because i answered you. If you make a statement, why can't i address it? IThe way you formulated your statement was implying you thought that f they aren't ready democracy, they are brutes.

Also, keep your parties on, 'man'. This is a debate on a forum, not a fight.

I never meant they was brute.

I ask why would you say a nation wants to have a terrorist organization? Why they want to have a dictatorship?

Because the people can't think for themselves? Are they brute or something?

And that's what he's saying basically, if they can't rules themselves then they must be rule...

[Fernando 6,378]

Yes, I've stated so. Saddam is the lesser evil while a genocide in Gaza certainly isn't the lesser evil. I have no idea what you are trying to say.

This:

there is no right or wrong in the lesser of two evil, just who perceives it as the lesser of two evil.

For me evil is evil, no matter how little or how big.

For you is acceptable.

And just like you think is acceptable that's how many leaders of nations think. .ie Israel that nation your bashing.

[The Skipper 20,593]

This:

there is no right or wrong in the lesser of two evil, just who perceives it as the lesser of two evil.

For me evil is evil, no matter how little or how big.

For you is acceptable.

And just like you think is acceptable that's how many leaders of nations think. .ie Israel that nation your bashing.

He never said that he thought it was acceptable - what he was basically trying to get at is that the situation under Saddam is better than the situation right now, which is true IMO.

[Fernando 6,378]

He never said that he thought it was acceptable - what he was basically trying to get at is that the situation under Saddam is better than the situation right now, which is true IMO.

You need to understand this clearly.

There will never be better under such circumstances.

Is just the illusion of something better.

This is the same idea people used to say about Pablo Escobar.

Because of how he gave back to the community, he kept crime in his area low but people never wanted to see the repercussion of such things, the repercussion of drugs.

Have you ever seen the Two Escobars?

If not I recommend it:

http://youtu.be/6EilV9vgaEY

[The Skipper 20,593]

You need to understand this clearly.

There will never be better under such circumstances.

Is just the illusion of something better.

This is the same idea people used to say about Pablo Escobar.

Because of how he gave back to the community, he kept crime in his area low but people never wanted to see the repercussion of such things, the repercussion of drugs.

Have you ever seen the Two Escobars?

If not I recommend it:

http://youtu.be/6EilV9vgaEY

You're not understanding it at all... I'm not condoning anything Saddam has done. What I'm saying is that the general standard of living, whilst obviously not ideal, was a lot better in Iraq than it is now. That shouldn't be so difficult to understand. The circumstances under Saddam were bad, but the circumstances right now are far worse. Ergo, you can say that the circumstances under Saddam were better.

[CHOULO19 24,332]

This:

there is no right or wrong in the lesser of two evil, just who perceives it as the lesser of two evil.

For me evil is evil, no matter how little or how big.

For you is acceptable.

And just like you think is acceptable that's how many leaders of nations think. .ie Israel that nation your bashing.

No, there is wrong and more wrong regardless of what you define "evil" by.

I honestly find it very silly that you think that where there are two "wrongs" it is always a matter of opinion which is lesser regardless of the facts and that opinions for both as being the lesser evil are always valid.

It's like saying I hate needles. So there are no right or wrong opinions on what is worse: Taking my medicine injection or dying from disease.

Sorry, I don't share that view at all. Even when there are two wrongs, there can be a CLEARLY lesser evil.

[Fernando 6,378]

No, there is wrong and more wrong regardless of what you define "evil" by.

I honestly find it very silly that you think that where are there two "wrongs" it is always a matter of opinion which is lesser regardless of the facts and that opinions for both as being the lesser evil are always valid.

It's like saying I hate needles. So there are no right or wrong opinions on what is worse: Taking my medicine injection or dying from disease.

Sorry, I don't share that view at all. Even when there are two wrongs, there can be a CLEARLY lesser evil.

I don't agree. Evil is evil, that's why for me your clearly being a hypocrite thinking one thing is more allowable then the other.

[Fernando 6,378]

You're not understanding it at all... I'm not condoning anything Saddam has done. What I'm saying is that the general standard of living, whilst obviously not ideal, was a lot better in Iraq than it is now. That shouldn't be so difficult to understand. The circumstances under Saddam were bad, but the circumstances right now are far worse. Ergo, you can say that the circumstances under Saddam were better.

But it's a byproduct of having a regime as saddam like it was a byproduct all the violence and death in Colombia after Pablo Escobar death. When Pablo was alive a lot of things was rose and peaches. After It was very tough for many years.

But today Colombia is a much more different country then it was back in 94.

Now I do agree USA must help cause they had a hand in overthrowing saddam, and thank god they have started to help.

But never being run by a dictatorship who runs wild like a drug cartel is the best option.

[CHOULO19 24,332]

I don't agree. Evil is evil, that's why for me your clearly being a hypocrite thinking one thing is more allowable then the other.

Well, not for me. I don't know if you mean this from a religious point of view, but I don't believe in "evil". For me there are all sorts of degrees of good and bad relative to people, times, places...etc. So, to me, it's not hypocritical at all.

[Fernando 6,378]

Well, not for me. I don't know if you mean this from a religious point of view, but I don't believe in "evil". For me there are all sorts of degrees of good and bad relative to people, times, places...etc. So, to me, it's not hypocritical at all.

Well if your Atheist then I guess you won't believe in that.

But if you call yourself a Christian, Muslim or such then something wrong with that view.

To be fair I don't know much about Muslim but I know in Christianity such thing does not makes sense. Evil is evil.

No matter how big or how small.

[The Skipper 20,593]

But never being run by a dictatorship who runs wild like a drug cartel is the best option.

And I never said such. Feel like I'm repeating myself a lot here, but me saying that the situation under Saddam was better doesn't mean I'm saying that Iraq should go back to being a dictatorship. I'm merely comparing two different times and stating which era wasn't the worst in Iraq.

Of course dictatorship is never the answer, Iraq must strive for democracy. Whether that's achievable or not is another discussion.

[CHOULO19 24,332]

Well if your Atheist then I guess you won't believe in that.

But if you call yourself a Christian, Muslim or such then something wrong with that view.

To be fair I don't know much about Muslim but I know in Christianity such thing does not makes sense. Evil is evil.

No matter how big or how small.

Nope, proud of atheist since I was a teen

Can't answer about evil in Islam, I'm by no means an expert

[Mohammed Seif 1,451]

Well if your Atheist then I guess you won't believe in that.

But if you call yourself a Christian, Muslim or such then something wrong with what you believe then.

As a Muslim, I actually share this view. There are relativity in things. There are many factors affecting a problem. You try to minimize the damages as much as possible and capitalize on the positives as much as you can. Life is not rigid. It is not a matter of black and white.

[Fernando 6,378]

And I never said such. Feel like I'm repeating myself a lot here, but me saying that the situation under Saddam was better doesn't mean I'm saying that Iraq should go back to being a dictatorship. I'm merely comparing two different times and stating which era wasn't the worst in Iraq.

Of course dictatorship is never the answer, Iraq must strive for democracy. Whether that's achievable or not is another discussion.

Yes I know, but I saw the same view in Colombia.

The situation was miles better with Escobar at the helm.

After he died many little drug cartels taken over led to many blood shed.

It was very bad after he died, and took years to fix that problem.

It's sad what it's happening in Iraq, but Iraqis as well other countries must help because the country does not have the infrastructure to sustain a democracy, or even socialism if that's your cup of tea.

There's a lot of little organization trying to take power after Saddam.

As a Muslim, I actually share this view. There are relativity in things. There are many factors affecting a problem. You try to minimize the damages as much as possible and capitalize on the positives as much as you can. Life is not rigid. It is not a matter of black and white.

Yeah that's why I edited my statement.

As I don't know much about Muslim but I know in Christianity such thing does not makes sense. Evil is evil.

No matter how big or how small.

[The only place to be 11,313]

Over 200000 people killed in hours. Regardless of the circumstances, that is a war crime.

No it isn't though. A war crime is a very specific label. Now you may think it's a war crime, but that doesn't mean it is and saying 'regardless of the circumstances' is a reductive way of eliminating context from something that is entirely dependent on it.

[The Skipper 20,593]

It's sad what it's happening in Iraq, but Iraqis as well other countries must help because the country does not have the infrastructure to sustain a democracy, or even socialism if that's your cup of tea. There's a lot of little organization trying to take power after Saddam.

And this is why people are bringing USA into it, because they really should've ensured that after invading Iraq and getting rid of Saddam that a better foundation for democracy was laid down. They failed hard in that aspect, and this is just the beginning of the consequences of that failure.