Politics & Stuff

[Mohammed Seif 1,451]

The KSA has spent hundreds of billions of dollars on weapons. So has half the gulf countries..

But forget the weapons, even forget the oil card, which is one the most powerful cards on the world, no fat king or prince or even official from the gulf has so much as condemned the attack so far. We are all partners in the crime.

I kind of disagree with you there. They all did condemn it, but they don't want to give legitimacy to Hamas. You know that Hamas had no legitimacy on Egypt in the days of Mubarak. In a nutshell, because they starting killing soldiers on the borders and due to what they did to Fateh. On the other hand, as you accurately said, Qatar is trying to make a name for itself. You probably also know that there were plans to break down KSA through the militants in Yemen. Hamas are being funded by Qatar like you said. Hezbollah provided the training while Iran provide the weapons. Now look at the Gulf region, Iran constantly threatens the gullf countries and it has warned before that the first thing it will do if attacked by the U.S is fire at the oil fields of the gulf.

So things are pretty much intertwined here.

The only weapon the Gulf countries have is oil. Whatever billions are spent in weapons is accurate. But by all means this is not spending for war. Qatar who spent 11 billion dollars this year to but weapons from the U.S wasn't because they need it as a military. Invading Qatar will take 24 hrs tops, just like Iraq invaded Kuwait. They did it in half a day. Qatar gives these weapons to different groups. Hamas is one, but also you should take a look at Libya. The militants are getting their weapons from Qatar. KSA on the other hand were heavily funding the resistance in Syria when the revolution turned into a civil war. So don't be fooled by the money they spend on weapons. There will be no war without AT LEAST Egypt. And you know how passionate the Egyptians feel (as people) about Palestine. But that simply will not happen now because of that peace treaty.

I agree with you that we are all partners in the crime. But not for long. Look carefully at the region. Somethings are changing. A power is rising. And it is getting unprecedented political and financial (economical) aid from a lot around it. The few upcoming years will flip the situation upside down.

[Mohammed Seif 1,451]

Good that lebanon is united about it. Just watched a film on al jazeera, and before the terrified gaza residents can blame Israel many are saying 'where are our arab brothers ?'

Its a tragic situation, and you know israel before they stop will commit an even bigger atrocity, as they always do.

Its not a normal situation, however the media like to portray it as two equal sides, as we know. In a normal conflict situation, the bottom line in terms of resolution is talk. Jaw, jaw, not war war. However this is the last thing Israel wants, they want to get rid of Gaza and have it like they have all the other occupied land, so they will constantly provoke and kill. Unfortunately there are no organisations that can help that much - we learned during my politics degree how US controlled the UN is- but perhaps the best hope is from the Arab league. They need to make concerted efforts, not to israel as this is pissing in the wind, but to the US and the west. History would need to be dug up, and truths presented about the artificial borders set up by the west and colonialism. A united arab diplomatic front, composed of muslim, christian, jewish representatives is to my mind the best hope of restraining israel, and a more important goal than a two state solution. Thoughts ?

Things will definitely not come out of the Arab league. But a few Arab countries.

[Amblève. 4,995]

How likely is it for muslim countries to interfere military again in the conflict if Israel goes on with this massacre? How attached are they to the palestinians, who are fellow muslims?

Realistically speaking, I can see only two outcomes to this. Israel killing the last palestinian and nobody giving a shit or muslim countries deciding it's enough and wiping Israel from existance.

Oh hello WW3!

[Dion 2,476]

Oh hello WW3!

That would be a possibility. It would get pretty insane if there were nuclear bombs involved from Israel and Iran.

[Stingray 9,441]

The official Goldstone UN fact finding report about Gaza in 2009. The amount of times there is 'no evidence' for all the Israeli allegations is phenomenal. But i gues tis is a biased source as well for some on here?

I hope you are brave enough to read it and take it into consideration.

http://www2.ohchr.org/english/bodies/hrcouncil/docs/12session/A-HRC-12-48.pdf

[Fulham Broadway 16,863]

The official Goldstone UN fact finding report about Gaza in 2009. The amount of times there is 'no evidence' for all the Israeli allegations is phenomenal. But i gues tis is a biased source as well for some on here?

I hope you are brave enough to read it and take it into consideration.

http://www2.ohchr.org/english/bodies/hrcouncil/docs/12session/A-HRC-12-48.pdf

Shocking my man. There was another one about civilians complaining to the Israleis about the completely unjustifiable demolishing of their homes. Of over 1000 complaints the Israelis ignored all but 36, and those 36 they just sent out acknowledgments. That was in 2009, and nothing done since. If there was Noble Prize for Cuntishness.....

[Fernando 6,465]

How likely is it for muslim countries to interfere military again in the conflict if Israel goes on with this massacre? How attached are they to the palestinians, who are fellow muslims?

Realistically speaking, I can see only two outcomes to this. Israel killing the last palestinian and nobody giving a shit or muslim countries deciding it's enough and wiping Israel from existance.

I would think if it starts from somewhere it wouldn't be from a Muslim country, but Russia.

With Russia in the mix, then some other countries might join.

[Stingray 9,441]

Mustafa Barghouthi

Debunked: The Mendacious Propaganda Israel is Pushing to Justify Its War On Gaza

o

July 30, 2014 |

It is time to clarify the real facts on the aggression the Israelis started on the Palestinians. Unfortunately, the Israeli narrative has dominated in the global media. It’s very important to uncover the Israeli narrative and bring facts to the public’s attention. The world needs to differentiate between myths and truth.

The first and very important point is that it was Israel which initiated this war and not the Palestinians.

This is very different from what is presented in most of the media and it’s completely wrong to accept the Israeli narrative here. Israelis claim that Israel was subjected to rocket shooting from Gaza to which Israel responded by airstrikes. This is not true. The reality is that Israel initiated airstrikes on Gaza, several times, and assassinated people in Gaza, trying to provoke a reaction until they got rockets being shot at Israel. And then, it was spun in the media as Israel defending itself.

The second point is that this war started not in Gaza but in the West Bank, when the Israeli army, without providing a single proof that Palestinians were responsible for the disappearance and subsequent death of three settlers, started a collective punishment campaign all over the West Bank. One of the results of that campaign was the arrest of more than 1,000 Palestinians, including huge numbers of Palestinian members of Parliament, bringing the number of Palestinian parliamentarians in Israeli jails to 34. During that campaign moreover, Israel invaded more than 3,000 houses, destroyed many of them, stole money from people and destroyed furniture. Israeli forces initiated wide-ranging violence against Palestinians and started using high-velocity bullets and gun shots against peaceful demonstrators who were protesting against the kidnapping of Muhammad Abu Khdeir who was tortured and burned alive by Israeli settlers. This led to a very serious escalation all over the West Bank.

The third point is that this war in not on Hamas only, it is a war on all Palestinians. It is a war on Palestinians in Gaza, it is a war on Palestinians in the West Bank, in East Jerusalem and on the Palestinians in general. It is very important to mention that most of the people who suffer from the Israeli aggressions are civilians. At the time of writing this article, on the 26th of July, at least 1,000 Palestinians have been killed, 90% of whom were civilians. Among them, are more than 208 children. Over 6000 people have been injured, 31% of whom were children. Whole families have been eliminated. Just this morning, 20 members from the same family, including 11 children, were killed in their sleep as the building they had found refuge in only the day before was leveled. We are talking about more than 30 families that have been scratched out of the civil record because the whole extended family was eliminated, the father, the mother, the grand-parents, the grand-children, everybody. This kind of extermination of people, this level of attack is nothing less than a massacre, a genocide that is conducted by Israel.

To add insult to injury, Israel has forced hundreds of thousands of people to evacuate their homes, forcing them to leave by bombarding them. No less than 13,000 homes were completely or partially destroyed, thousands of people have lost everything, their clothes, a lifetime of belongings and memories and now, hundreds of thousands of people are refugees once more, many living in schools, with nothing. If the war ends, when they come back, they will come back to nothing, only rubble. Entire neighborhoods like Shujaeya were completely eliminated within 24 hours. Even hospitals were attacked. So far, the Israeli army has attacked seven hospitals, 13 ambulances and two Medical Relief centers, among other clinics. In several cases, they have injured and killed medical workers and/or patients. They also attacked a care facility for disabled people, killing two disabled women in the process. On another occasion, a disabled young man, deaf and unable to speak, did not understand what was going on until he was directly hit and paralyzed from the waist down, adding yet another disability to his life. The most touching and heart-wrenching words I have heard were those of a man who was speaking to two of his children in the hospital, killed by Israeli airstrike: “Forgive me my children, I could not protect you.”

This feeling of helplessness is overwhelming because thousands and thousands of people today in Gaza, thousands of mothers and fathers are unable to protect their children. Many have seen their children killed; some have seen their children decapitated by Israeli shrapnel.

The next point I want to make is related to the claim that Israel has the right to defend itself. The most insulting thing here is that many of the world’s leaders like Angela Merkel of Germany and Barack Obama of the United States are speaking of Israel’s right to defend itself, while no single word is said of the Palestinians’ right to defend themselves, although the Palestinians are the oppressed ones, the underdogs in this struggle. The Palestinians are the ones whose land has been occupied for 47 years, who have been forced into displacement and refugee status since 1948, who are suffering from a system of apartheid, discrimination and segregation created by the Israeli occupation. Yet, not a single word has been uttered about our right to defend ourselves.

In reality, what we see from the Israeli narrative is nothing but a consistent effort to dehumanize Palestinians, as if Palestinians are not equal human beings, as if Palestinian life is not important, as if Palestinian life is worth nothing, as if it is okay that over 1,000 Palestinians are killed and 6000 are injured. Meanwhile, all anybody is talking about is the psychological impact on the Israeli population of the fear, although so far projectiles fired out of Gaza have killed just two civilians. Up until now, 42 Israelis were killed, 40 of whom were soldiers. These are soldiers who were killed inside Gaza while they were invading Gaza and attacking people in an act of aggression. We don’t want anybody to die, whether Israeli or Palestinian. But to say that Palestinians are the aggressors in this situation is very wrong and totally unacceptable.

The asymmetry in the current situation is also a very important point to clarify. We are talking here about the Israeli army which is probably the fourth most powerful army in the world, attacking civilians in one of the most crowded areas of the world, with 1.8 million people living in less than 140 square miles, about 12,000 people per square mile on “normal” days, but nearly double that number these days, as Israel has declared 44% of Gaza unsafe and hammered in the message by bombings homes. These 1.8 million people have been attacked by a powerful air force, very powerful ships, and artillery, while these people have only very primitive means to defend themselves. Even the rockets that were thrown at Israel – and we don’t want these rockets to be thrown – are almost invariably nothing but a psychological instrument. This has been frightening Israelis, it is true, but these projectiles have caused harm exceedingly rarely. The harm is happening almost entirely on one side, the Palestinian side. There is no way anyone can compare the two, this sophisticated army and the Palestinian people. The asymmetry is clear and yet, Israeli forces are consistently using indiscriminate and disproportional force against the Palestinian population.

One element that is almost always ignored is the issue of the siege of Gaza. The siege on Gaza has been ongoing for eight years and it has caused the most dramatic humanitarian crisis not only in this region but probably worldwide. We are talking about 1.8 million people besieged by sea, by air and by land. Israel is controlling all passages, it is controlling the sky and it is controlling the sea. Fishermen are not allowed to fish deeper than three miles into the sea; they haven’t been allowed to sail at all for the past three weeks. Almost nobody can get in or out, even to go to the hospital or receive medical treatment. The one entrance to Egypt is also closed from the Egyptian side. This siege has caused very serious problems. Gaza lacks construction materials. Gaza does not have access to clean water; 90% of the water in Gaza is not fit for drinking because it is either salinated or polluted. More than 300,000 people have lost all water supply because the water pipes were destroyed by Israeli shelling and when workers tried to repair them, they were shot at by the Israeli military.

Electricity is an enormous problem in Gaza too. Most of the time, most people do not have electricity for more than six to eight hours a day. Today, more than one third of the population does not have any electricity at all because Israel bombarded the only electricity plant in Gaza. Because of the siege, 90% of educated young people are unemployed. Because of the siege, the level of poverty is very high in Gaza, a fact compounded by the high prices of basic products which have to come from Israel. This is an unacceptable situation. A siege like that is considered an act of aggression. It is very important to remind world politicians of the fact that, in 1967, Israel declared that it had the right to attack Egypt, Syria, Jordan and the Palestinian people and occupy all of the West Bank, East Jerusalem, the Gaza Strip, the Golan Heights and the whole of Sinai just because the Egyptian army closed the passage to Eilat, a small port in the southern part of Israel. Israel still had full access to the Mediterranean Sea, yet they considered this an act of aggression that gave them the right to conduct one of the worst wars in the Middle East. That is why we say that a ceasefire is not enough; it is very important to also lift the siege on Gaza, because the siege itself is an act of aggression.

Today the Palestinians have been demanding to have a ceasefire. But Israel is refusing. Three or four efforts were made to have at least a humanitarian ceasefire, so that the Palestinians could take out all the bodies of those who were killed and who are buried under the rubble in Shujaeya and other places like Khuzaa. It is heartbreaking to note that there are many injured people there probably, who still cannot get access to medical care and who will die, bleeding out slowly or from their wounds, because no full ceasefire was allowed to take place and no medical teams were allowed to reach them. As a matter of fact, Israel has attacked not only hospitals, schools, mosques and houses, but also attacked first aid teams and ambulances as well as killing three first responders. They burned down two ambulances trying to reach injured people in Shujaeya. They destroyed many clinics and many first aid providers were shot and injured. This is an act of ethnic cleansing, an act of genocide and a massive act of terror against the Palestinian population.

Dehumanizing Palestinians will never negate the facts. And it is important to clarify all of them. This war was started by Israel. It is even debatable whether it can be called a war, as a war suggests a fight between two equal sides. In reality it is not a war, it is an act of aggression from an occupying power which is trying to solve the problem of occupation by increasing the occupation. In this attack, Israel was the initiator and the victims are mainly the Palestinians.

Now the killing has extended again to the West Bank, where Israel has resumed shooting peaceful demonstrators with high-velocity bullets. For years, the world has been urging us to organize big peaceful marches with thousands of people. This is exactly what we did in Ramallah on the 24th of July when more than 25,000 marched peacefully to Jerusalem protesting the massacre in Gaza, demanding the end of aggression and demanding access to Jerusalem to go pray in Al Aqsa on the holiest of all nights for Muslim Palestinians. Before we reached the checkpoint, which was heavily manned, the Israeli army started to shoot people. Snipers shot demonstrators with high-velocity bullets in a scene reminiscent of what the apartheid police did to the peaceful protestors in Soweto in the 1970s. During the night, 211 Palestinians were shot with high-velocity bullets. During the course of four hours, six of them lost an eye, six others were injured critically and one lost his life. The very next day, the Israeli army, using live fire, killed nine Palestinians who were demonstrating peacefully in Hebron, Nablus, Bethlehem and Jenin. Approximately 60 people were injured. The list goes on.

The people who are being killed in the West Bank are not Hamas and are not in Gaza. They are not shooting rockets at Israel, they do not have any weapons to defend themselves. Yet they are killed repeatedly by an Israeli army which considers itself above international law thanks to the silence and complicity of many Western leaders. UN Secretary General, Mr. Ban Ki-Moon, does not have the courage to hold Israel accountable, even when a UN school serving as a shelter in Beit Hanoun is attacked by the Israeli army, killing 16 women and children and injuring 200 others.

Finally, one has to remember that this stage of terrible violence has repeatedly happened over the last 66 years. The root of the problem is Israel’s occupation of Palestinian land, settlement building and the forcing of hundreds of thousands of people out of their homes. This is the longest occupation in modern history and has endured for 47 years. This is an occupation that has transformed into a system of apartheid and discrimination. Without solving this, without ending the occupation and the apartheid system, there will be no peace, let alone stability or normal life. When we struggle as Palestinians for our freedom, it is not only about our future, but also about the future of Israelis. Because Israelis will never be free themselves as long as we are not free. It is time to see that extremists in Israel, who have benefited from all these wars, are using Palestinian lives and neighborhoods as a testing area for their weapons, so that Israel can still continue selling weapons worldwide, becoming the third largest military exporter in the world. This has to stop.

Occupation must stop and this asymmetry must be addressed; impunity and reality must be exposed. It is time to tell Israel “enough is enough”; it is time to say to the world “please see the reality, look at the facts.” Citizens from all the countries in the world, be it the United States, Germany, or France are entitled to know the truth and your media are not telling you the truth. Your media, for the most part, are overwhelmed with the Israeli narrative. This has to be corrected.

Dr. Mustafa Barghouthi is a leading figure in Palestinian civil society, a long-time advocate for the non-violent Palestinian protest movement, one of the founders of the independent political party, the Palestinian National Initiative, and a member of the Palestine Liberation Organization's .

[dave30 728]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-2707036/PETER-HITCHENS-Israel-s-bloody-assault-Gaza-dream-come-true-Hamas.html

Good article on the pragmatic foolishness as well as moral repugnancy of Israel's attack.

[Fulham Broadway 16,863]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-2707036/PETER-HITCHENS-Israel-s-bloody-assault-Gaza-dream-come-true-Hamas.html

Good article on the pragmatic foolishness as well as moral repugnancy of Israel's attack.

Not a bad article dave, but misses 99% of the history as I'm sure you're aware.

Hitchens, bit of a twat generally, says something along the lines of" its hamas dream that the Worlds media is showing pictures of dead palestinian women and children". I dont think thats the case - many of those dismembered children and pensioners are hamas relatives. "Hamas" is generally a term used by israel to describe Palestinians.

Also those pictures of dead women and children are not shown in Israel. Channel 4, probably the least biased news channel in the UK, did a report into media coverage of the slaughter in Israel. It is completely sanitised on their tv, with stories mainly about the Israeli Attack Force. As a result, the population of Israel are generally unaware of the international condemnation of their govts actions, and the isolationism that Israel will face in the future. Tourism and seeking holocaust sympathy might have run its course now.

[Stingray 9,441]

My hometown Ghent this afternoon ...

[MrExcalibur100 7,124]

[Roquila 1,335]

Let's talk about Syria....... What's happening there is x10 worse than what's happening in Palestine. Islam extremists are killing each other like sheeps, more than 1500 Muslims from Irak were killed today in Syria for being from Irak. They are accused of rape and child rape but i saw a footage of that masacre and i cannot think they found 1500 child rapists in a spot. 1500 fucking Human beings.

I am a really peacefull person but sometimes you just have to defeat fire with fire...... Evacuate as many NORMAL people as you can and bombard the shit out of extremists. This contradicts myself because i believe in Law and Justice, killing people is neither Law or Justice but sometimes insane people just wont understand. I'd rather see these extremists die than innocent people being slaughtered like sheeps.

They don't even know what they are fighting for. These people are nutcases, insane.

[CHOULO19 24,332]

So the funniest thing happened yesterday in Gaza. There was supposed to be a 72 hour ceasefire while the sides debated an Israeli retreat from Gaza in Egypt. Minutes into ceasefire, an Israeli force advanced into Rafah which until yesterday had not been invaded by land yet (in a clear violation of the ceasefire, but that's expected from Israel). They wanted to destroy three buildings because they believed that there might be a tunnel in the area. They came up against a group from a resistance faction from "zero-range"; two of them got killed and they had to retreat. Once they retreated, they realized that they had a soldier missing at which point the IOF initiated what is known as the "Hannibal Directive": en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hannibal_Directive

It is a military tactic that Israeli army trains and have used when one of it's soldiers is captured in the past including here in Lebanon. Basically, it says that it is better to kill the captured soldier than let the enemy have him. So they proceeded to bomb the shit out of the area. 80 corpses arrived at the hospital with an unknown number still under the rubble as more than 60 buildings were completely destroyed by over 700 strikes within an hour.

And out came flying all the Israeli scenarios of the alleged capture including tunnels and suicide bombers. Then in came the Zionist wannabes. Obama called the resistance "barbaric" for capturing the soldier. Even Ban Ki Moon who usually at most "expresses his concern" when hundreds of Palestinians are killed, came out and slammed Hamas and the resistance.

Today, the resistance came out and said that they know nothing of the soldier and said that he was probably killed in combat and his group forgot to evacuate him. It really would have been a funny cock up by the IOF if hundreds of people hadn't been murdered in the past 24 hours...

[Weckerz 3,781]

Meanwhile in Gaza

[Stingray 9,441]

So the funniest thing happened yesterday in Gaza. There was supposed to be a 72 hour ceasefire while the sides debated an Israeli retreat from Gaza in Egypt. Minutes into ceasefire, an Israeli force advanced into Rafah which until yesterday had not been invaded by land yet (in a clear violation of the ceasefire, but that's expected from Israel). They wanted to destroy three buildings because they believed that there might be a tunnel in the area. They came up against a group from a resistance faction from "zero-range"; two of them got killed and they had to retreat. Once they retreated, they realized that they had a soldier missing at which point the IOF initiated what is known as the "Hannibal Directive": en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hannibal_Directive

It is a military tactic that Israeli army trains and have used when one of it's soldiers is captured in the past including here in Lebanon. Basically, it says that it is better to kill the captured soldier than let the enemy have him. So they proceeded to bomb the shit out of the area. 80 corpses arrived at the hospital with an unknown number still under the rubble as more than 60 buildings were completely destroyed by over 700 strikes within an hour.

And out came flying all the Israeli scenarios of the alleged capture including tunnels and suicide bombers. Then in came the Zionist wannabes. Obama called the resistance "barbaric" for capturing the soldier. Even Ban Ki Moon who usually at most "expresses his concern" when hundreds of Palestinians are killed, came out and slammed Hamas and the resistance.

Today, the resistance came out and said that they know nothing of the soldier and said that he was probably killed in combat and his group forgot to evacuate him. It really would have been a funny cock up by the IOF if hundreds of people hadn't been murdered in the past 24 hours...

The Hannibal Directive .... Im just reading Our Harsh Nature, the book of IDF soldiers breaking the silence. If you want to know more about strategy, Tactics and eufemisms from an inside view, then this is quite the book, wow!

[Fulham Broadway 16,863]

Petition to kick racist Israel out of FIFA- 15 000+ signatures so far....

http://www.change.org/en-GB/petitions/fifa-suspend-the-israeli-football-association-s-fifa-membership?tk=kUbDOTS7w8aWRiUle0ee0o3JsHCLSjTCfT5jf7gLRZE&utm_source=petition_update&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=petition_update_email

[CHOULO19 24,332]

IOF commander explaining the real objective of the attack, what he calls the "Dahiya doctrine":

6. (S) Eisenkot labeled any Israeli response to resumed

conflict the "Dahiya doctrine" in reference to the leveled

Dahiya quarter in Beirut during the Second Lebanon War in

2006. He said Israel will use disproportionate force upon

any village that fires upon Israel, "causing great damage and

destruction." Eisenkot made very clear: this is not a

recommendation, but an already approved plan -- from the

Israeli perspective, these are "not civilian villages, they

are military bases." Eisenkot in this statement echoed

earlier private statements made by IDF Chief of General Staff

Gabi Ashkenazi, who said the next fight in Southern Lebanon

would come at a much higher cost for both sides -- and that

the IDF would not hold back.

7. (SBU) Eisenkot stated that Damascus fully understands what

the Israelis did in Dahiya, and that the Israelis have the

capability of doing the same to Syria. He suggested the

possibility of harm to the population has been Hizballah

leader Nasrallah's main constraint, and the reason for the

quiet over the past two years.

https://wikileaks.org/plusd/cables/08TELAVIV2329_a.html#efmBOyBhT

Basically, the plan is to cause as much damage and kill as much civilians as possible using "indiscriminate force" and disproportional power in hope that the huge loss of civilians will be a constraint for the resistance in the future.

"Most moral army in the world"....