Politics & Stuff

[Stingray 9,441]

Again, still can't see the supposed genocide. Genocides wipe out population not build it up. Can you site an example of any historical genocide (the word rightly used) were there is a high population increase? These stats are also easily available on Wikipidia anyway and any other population data accumulation site. And who is denying there is an occupation? You sure you know it's official terminology right? And what does that have to do with my comment? Nothing. More strawman points. You aren't even listening. One thing enters one ear and goes out through the next.

Let's face it, Muslims living in the big cities in Israel are much more well off than Shia Muslims who get murdered regularly by Sunni's for being the "wrong" kind of Muslim. Same thing in Pakistan to where the Shia's are anything but safe and live in constant fear. Or you think Saudi Arabia is such a "nice" place to live? Where Muslims are killed outright if they choose to depart from the faith and adulterers are stoned to death? Get real.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ And the same thing applies to the copy and paste job above.

I called it ethnic cleansing not genocide if you want to debate definitions. Also, so because it is bad somewhere else this excuses what happens in Gaza. Muslims in Saudi have it much better, than the people in Gaza and this is what it is about. Quod non. And I am not even listening? You guys never respond to my data or argumentation, you just jump to another topic and go on.

[Stingray 9,441]

Read this then, Commissioner-General of UN on the situation in the Gaza strip (14 july).

Thank you for joining us at this press briefing.

As we stand here, the Gaza Strip is once again experiencing very dramatic circumstances, circumstances we had hoped it would never have to experience again. The population of Gaza, including Palestine refugees, is once again enduring great suffering and many have lost their lives or sustained serious injuries.

As Commissioner-General of UNRWA, I have come to Gaza, together with Humanitarian Coordinator James Rawley, to directly observe the situation resulting from the widening military operations. I also came to discuss with our Director of Operations in Gaza, Mr. Robert Turner, the level of UNRWA's preparedness and emergency response capabilities.

I am deeply alarmed and affected by the escalation of violence in the Gaza Strip and the devastating human and physical toll it is taking on civilians, including Palestine refugees. The casualty numbers are now said to lie at 174 killed and over 1,100 wounded. All indications are -and I find this particulary dramatic - that women and children make up a sizable number of victims of the current strikes. I am equally disturbed that people with disabilities are among the victims, reportedly as a result of Israeli strikes.

What began with the extensive use of air power could expand into a ground operation with an actual Israeli military incursion into Gaza, leading to a fear that more and more civilians will be affected. Meanwhile, rockets continue to be fired at various Israeli cities from within the Strip.

We have all seen the images of smoke rising from different areas of Gaza. We have seen the destruction wrought by the bombing campaign. As I map the destruction for myself today, let me draw your attention to two things:

First, never will even the most impressive television footage properly capture the depth of fear and despair felt in the homes and hearts of Gazans who are yet again facing death, devastation and displacement. Thousands of parents today have no more answers to give to their young children when they are asked why their houses are shaking or breaking under the weight and relentless force of the bombardments.

Second, we must be careful about the endless enumeration of casualty numbers. The dead and injured in Gaza are not anonymous. Behind the figures lie multiple individual destinies now torn apart. Too often in their lives have Gazan civilians been denied their dignity. Anonymity in death or injury is the ultimate denial. It is also too comfortable for the world and the parties engaged in the hostilities. Palestinians are not statistics and we must never allow them to be treated as such. They are human beings like others in the world, with their identity and the same hopes and expectations for an improved future for their children.

In this context, I urgently call on the Israeli Security Forces to put an end to attacks against, or endangering, civilians and civilian infrastructure which are contrary to international humanitarian law. In Gaza, risks are compounded by the very high population density. Maximum restraint must be exercised and measures of distinction, proportionality and precaution must be respected to avoid further casualties and overall destabilization. Clearly at this stage not enough is being done in that regard. Too many lives are being lost and this must end. If calm is not quickly restored, the casualty levels will become even more intolerable and unacceptable. I echo the United Nations' call for all parties to respect international law, and protect the civilian population. This includes an end to rocket fire from Gaza aimed at Israel, which the United Nations has described as indiscriminate.

During my visit, I intend to meet with UNRWA teams. As you know, we recently declared an emergency for our operations in all five areas of Gaza. In recent days, we have dealt with several emergencies. We have 12,500 national and international staff in Gaza and I want here to pay tribute to their formidable courage and resolve. In the past hours, as a direct result of military operations, approximately 17,000 refugees have sought refuge in our 20 schools, some being displaced to the very same classrooms for the third time in five years. Let me recall that, during the Gaza fighting in 2008/9 over 50,000 people took sanctuary in UNRWA installations. People who came to UNRWA installations because they thought they could find safety and security were killed. In one incident, the UNRWA compound in Gaza where hundreds had taken refuge took a direct hit and the main UNRWA warehouse was burnt to the ground.

Worryingly, already 47 of our premises, whether schools, clinics or warehouses have been damaged by the air raids and other fire. The inviolability of our installations and premises must be respected, in accordance with international law.

Together with our partners in the UN system, with other local and international agencies present in Gaza, we are committed to keep this engagement strong and effective for as long as it takes. I call here on the donor and state community to ensure that these activities are properly funded.

During my first visit to Gaza as Commissioner-General three months ago, it became evident to me that the situation of the population of Gaza and of Palestine Refugees here has become completely unsustainable. Israel’s illegal blockade has deepened poverty levels and youth or female unemployment levels (at 65% and over 80% respectively). Gaza's aquifer will have been entirely contaminated in the next three to four years making the strip essentially unlivable. But today, these indicators pale in comparison to the intensity of the bombardments and the fears for security and survival.

Two things appear most evident when we see the destruction currently taking place around us. One, is that the conditions for Gaza's population will only deteriorate further as a result.

Two, while standing here in Gaza today and while fully recognising that UNRWA's specific role is a humanitarian one, I put the question to all actors concerned: How long will it take before it is recognised that only a political solution will allow to move beyond the endless cycles of violence and destruction that repeatedly affect the population of Gaza and beyond. And how much longer before this is seriously, meaningfully and comprehensively addressed? An answer to those questions is urgent: the lives of tens of thousands are today at grave and imminent risk.

I thank you.

BACKGROUND INFORMATION

UNRWA is a United Nations agency established by the General Assembly in 1949 and is mandated to provide assistance and protection to a population of some 5 million registered Palestine refugees. Its mission is to help Palestine refugees in Jordan, Lebanon, Syria, West Bank and the Gaza Strip to achieve their full potential in human development, pending a just solution to their plight. UNRWA’s services encompass education, health care, relief and social services, camp infrastructure and improvement, and microfinance.

Financial support to UNRWA has not kept pace with an increased demand for services caused by growing numbers of registered refugees, expanding need, and deepening poverty. As a result, the Agency's General Fund (GF), supporting UNRWA’s core activities and 97 per cent reliant on voluntary contributions, has begun each year with a large projected deficit. Currently the deficit stands at US$ 69 million.

@MrExcalibur100, now be brave yourself and answer this, now you have accused me of not listening and/or answering.

[Fulham Broadway 17,305]

Because this is the truth mate, not all the Palestinians are terrorist but Hamas is a terrorist organisation.

But terminology is flux, and determined by the opposition. Israel initially said hamas was terrorist, and lobbied the US, UK and other western countries to also call them the same. States more often than not are the terror.

The SS called the fighters in the warsaw ghetto terrorist, the british called Ghandi a terrorist,South Africa said Mandela was, the Chinese even the Dali Lama.

Any smaller group against colonialism is labelled this, and its easy when they have to revert to desperate tactics. At the end of the day, they are normal people and like you and me they want the same. House, utilities, enough food in their bellies, to watch chelsea. Thry are not some inherently 'evil' group, but it is never in the dominant powers interest to sit down and talk. You keep the terrorist threat alive, it justifies land grab, and keeping your population on your side, because your military is annhilating the "threat".

[Stingray 9,441]

Hamas uses those kids as human shields:

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=802664019758029

I miss so much context here. What is that guy saying? Why is it a mortar and not a rocket? Where and when is this? Is this indeed a human shield? Id even like a translation from someone who speaks arab on here (Choulo, Mohammed?)

If it is i find it repulsive, I really do and I already said I think Hamas is an extremist organization that does not deserve any praise whatsoever- but again i think the same about people who bomb children. Also, who put Hamas there to counter PLO? I refer back to The Gatekeepers where the Shin Bet guy acknowledges they supported them to get in the way of the PLO. Now what?

Also: You keep on saying palestines=Hamas in your arguments. We disagree on this.

this is also interesting on human shields (Gawker):

"The concept of a human shield is simple: In lieu of an actual shield, or other defensive resource, a combatant protects his positions by relying on his enemy's reluctance to kill noncombatants. "You can kill me if you like, but you will also kill this child, which your moral and legal precepts prevent." The attacking party, faced with a choice between killing civilians and tolerating the persistence of a legitimate military target, chooses not to strike. The target is thereby shielded from attack. (Hamas' utter lack of moral and legal precepts with respect to civilian casualties renders such a choice moot for them.)

This arrangement breaks down when the attacking party decides to go ahead and kill noncombatants anyway. The "shield" element fails. Which is why Netanyahu's use of the term "human shield" is imprecise. You don't get to call them shields after you've decided to kill them. The number of those people identified by Israel as combatants is unclear, but as of two days ago CBS News reported that roughly 60% of those killed by IDF operations in Gaza thus far were civilians.They obviously did not make an effective shield. We should stop calling them that.

[Mohammed Seif 1,451]

I miss so much context here. What is that guy saying? Why is it a mortar and not a rocket? Where and when is this? Is this indeed a human shield? Id even like a translation from someone who speaks arab on here (Choulo, Mohammed?)

If it is i find it repulsive, I really do and I already said I think Hamas is an extremist organization that does not deserve any praise whatsoever- but again i think the same about people who bomb children. Also, who put Hamas there to counter PLO? I refer back to The Gatekeepers where the Shin Bet guy acknowledges they supported them to get in the way of the PLO. Now what?

Also: You keep on saying palestines=Hamas in your arguments. We disagree on this.

this is also interesting on human shields (Gawker):

"The concept of a human shield is simple: In lieu of an actual shield, or other defensive resource, a combatant protects his positions by relying on his enemy's reluctance to kill noncombatants. "You can kill me if you like, but you will also kill this child, which your moral and legal precepts prevent." The attacking party, faced with a choice between killing civilians and tolerating the persistence of a legitimate military target, chooses not to strike. The target is thereby shielded from attack. (Hamas' utter lack of moral and legal precepts with respect to civilian casualties renders such a choice moot for them.)

This arrangement breaks down when the attacking party decides to go ahead and kill noncombatants anyway. The "shield" element fails. Which is why Netanyahu's use of the term "human shield" is imprecise. You don't get to call them shields after you've decided to kill them. The number of those people identified by Israel as combatants is unclear, but as of two days ago CBS News reported that roughly 60% of those killed by IDF operations in Gaza thus far were civilians.They obviously did not make an effective shield. We should stop calling them that.

First of all it is not Hamas. Apparently it is someone Syrian telling Bashar Al Asad that one day these kids will grow up and bring victory to the people. i.e metephorically saying that no matter how long Bashar stays and keeps killing people a younger generation will bring justice to the Syrians one day. He is also blaming other countries ( with the choice of words hinting Arabs) for standing by and watching what is happening to the Syrian people without taking any action. Nothing to do with Hamas. Apparently it is the Syrian resistance.

[Stingray 9,441]

First of all it is not Hamas. Apparently it is someone Syrian telling Bashar Al Asad that one day these kids will grow up and bring victory to the people. i.e metephorically saying that no matter how long Bashar stays and keeps killing people a younger generation will bring justice to the Syrians one day. He is also blaming other countries ( with the choice of words hinting Arabs) for standing by and watching what is happening to the Syrian people without taking any action. Nothing to do with Hamas. Apparently it is the Syrian resistance.

@CFC_4EVER, Ouch. Propaganda much?

Also on the "they said no to our peace offer" or "their only condition for a ceasefire has been (since the beginning) that Hamas stop all rocket attacks upon our country."

Wrong. They also demand that the IDF be allowed to establish a "buffer zone" which translates to Israelis stealing more land in the name of "security." In fact, most "reasonable" deals the Israelis offer include demands for more and more Palestinian land and want Palestinians to acquiesce on the illegal settlements.

Guess you don't hear that from Bennett or read that on IDF twitter, right?

[CHOULO19 24,332]

Hamas uses those kids as human shields:

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=802664019758029

That is in Syria Dude, at least try not to look like a propaganda!

[CHOULO19 24,332]

Let's face it, Muslims living in the big cities in Israel are much more well off than Shia Muslims who get murdered regularly by Sunni's for being the "wrong" kind of Muslim. Same thing in Pakistan to where the Shia's are anything but safe and live in constant fear. Or you think Saudi Arabia is such a "nice" place to live? Where Muslims are killed outright if they choose to depart from the faith and adulterers are stoned to death? Get real.

OMG, stop, PLEASE. This is just so wrong and so offensively stereotypical. Seriously, just STOP!

I will give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that you are just misinformed about the region and not trying to say that Muslims are so barbaric that they are better off living being bombed by Israel than living with each other. It is only very small extremists groups that don't accept the differences between Shia and Sunnis. To generalize like this would be like saying all Christians are Neo-Nazis. My mom is Sunni and my Shiite! All historians and Sheikhs agree that the issues between the two are political than religious.

And are you seriously comparing outdated laws (in frankly largely uneducated cultures) that the vast majority of the people there actually agree with, with being deprived of the basic human rights such as food, water, shelter and freedom and being racially discriminated against harassed on a daily basis?!

I know you are only trying to debate, but PLEASE get some context to what you're saying!

[Fulham Broadway 17,305]

I don't know if i need to laugh or to be sad about what you just said. they are terrorist this is fact, you are saying they send those 13 armed people this morning towards Israeli village to ask for "normal life?" or to kill them?

It is a reaction, like the Jewish heroes with handmade weapons in tunnels in the Warsaw ghetto. Believe me it is almost certain in the future, the palestinians, whatever label you want to put on them, will be known throughout the world as Freedom fighters, when history is written.

[Mohammed Seif 1,451]

Well to talk to them of course. Believe me it is almost certain in the future, the palestinians, whatever label you want to put on them, will be known throughout the world as Freedom fighters, when history is written.

And liberators of their stolen lands.

[MrExcalibur100 7,124]

OMG, stop, PLEASE. This is just so wrong and so offensively stereotypical. Seriously, just STOP!

I will give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that you are just misinformed about the region and not trying to say that Muslims are so barbaric that they are better off living being bombed by Israel than living with each other. It is only very small extremists groups that don't accept the differences between Shia and Sunnis. To generalize like this would be like saying all Christians are Neo-Nazis. My mom is Sunni and my Shiite! All historians and Sheikhs agree that the issues between the two are political than religious.

And are you seriously comparing outdated laws (in frankly largely uneducated cultures) that the vast majority of the people there actually agree with, with being deprived of the basic human rights such as food, water, shelter and freedom and being racially discriminated against harassed on a daily basis?!

I know you are only trying to debate, but PLEASE get some context to what you're saying!

I'll let the first part slide because you said you're not a Muslim. The second part is way off. Again. Arabs are denied basic human rights in Haifa and Tel Aviv? Can you please prove that Muslims as a whole are a denied food, water, shelter and freedom? Arabs are FULL citizens. They share the same basic rights as Jews (believe it or not) They are represented in every branch of government. Arabs are present in the Knesset. It's incredible you type that.

Now can you show me ANY Muslim majority country where a Jew is allowed to hold authority over a Muslim? It's infact forbidden in the Sharia. Are Jews able to practice their religion in most Muslim majority countries today? Are Jews given (what's left of them) any basic human rights in any Muslim majority country today? What happened to the powerful Jewish tribes of Saudi Arabia prior to Muhammad? I'll answer that one. They either got exterminated or driven out. What about the Christians in Pakistan, are they able to preach about Jesus freely without fear of death, like this?

http://www.cnn.com/2013/09/22/world/asia/pakistan-attack/

The Copts? The Christians in Nigeria's North? What happened to THEIR human rights and how come no other Muslim country in the world can offer the courtesy the Jews offer the Arabs in Israel?

Are Jews and Christians not second class citizens in Muslim majority countries under Dhimmi status having to pay the Muslim HUMILIATING Jizya? (which is nothing more than a form of extortion akin to the racketeering cash in Godfather movies ). Are Jews, Christians, Atheists, Pagans even allowed to set foot in Mecca? If not, why not? Muslims are persecuting people specifically Christians more than any group by FAR today but no protests or rallies in the Muslim world. I wonder why.

Dhimmi status as authorized by the Sharia is second class status for Jews and Christians in the Muslim world.

This last comment of yours just buried your point (or lack thereof), Choulo You obviously don't have a clue what goes on in Israel.

[Fulham Broadway 17,305]

To compare this to what happened in the ghetto is a very wrong thing to do sorry to tell you. we are not trying to kill all the Palestinians we just want to live in our country quietly "To be a free nation in our land" like the line in our national anthem says.

I wish in the future the silence of war will stop from both sides and you'll come to visit Israel and we can talk on other things like Chelsea line up etc...

Yes, it is true it is not the same situation you are right. I dont believe israelis are in the main wanting to see the annihilation of all the Palestinians. I apologise for that comparison. However, the desperation of the people is the same. They are not motivated by evil, or wanting to be the bad guy. These are fucking desperate, hurting people.

States beleive it or not often need 'terrorists', for control of their citizens, justifying austerity and surveillance, and promoting their own agenda and ideology. States will also artificially create terror- Russians in Chechnya, for instance. In the 1970s the Bologna railway bomb, it eventually came out the Italian state did it to discredit the communists and sway public opinion. Britain did it in India, and Israel with the blowing up of the King David Hotel.

[MrExcalibur100 7,124]

The Islamophobia is strong in this thread... Nice one you Zionist scum.

Now this is the kind of stuff that gets people banned. Petty name calling. I doubt anyone here is actually a "Zionist". Or did you mean Jew? Oh, that will be racist now won't it? If you don't like the opinions of others, just ignore them or shut it because petty name calling is not going to get you anywhere. It's the sign of a lost argument. Next to your name is an American flag. Freedom of speech and all. I expect better.

[Kieran. 6,317]

Now this is the kind of stuff that gets people banned. Petty name calling. I doubt anyone here is actually a "Zionist". Or did you mean Jew? Oh, that will be racist now won't it? If you don't like the opinions of others, just ignore them or shut it because petty name calling is not going to get you anywhere. It's the sign of a lost argument. Next to your name is an American flag. Freedom of speech and all. I expect better.

You're on my ignore list you loser.

[MrExcalibur100 7,124]

You're on my ignore list you loser.

Well be my guest then. You're quick to accuse the Jews of being baby killers but as soon as I start to point out some little home truths you start calling people Zionists and complaining about Islamophobia. Stop being a victim. If it's "Islamophobic" to point out home truths about the plight of Christians in Muslim majority countries then it's anti-semitic to accuse Jews on this board that their people are baby killers especially since I've we've seen from both sides, it's a highly debatable and controversial assertion. I think the Jews have on this board have a right to be offended by that seeing as all of them disagree with that contention.