Politics & Stuff

[cosmicway 1,333]

The Pals although definitely wronged, never in their lives tried a peaceful approach.
They started with Leila Khaled beck in 1968, who at least did not hurt the passengers and she managed to enchant Sir Alec.
But 46 years later they keep using bombs and rockets against airplanes, passenger boats, street shops, to destroy the state of Israel. That way it does n't work and in the end the same weapons are used against them.

[Fulham Broadway 17,339]

To maintain and enforce its gains, Israel has to keep the Palestinians down or out, the Arabs away, and draw the West in. For this, it needs to employ pre-emptive and overwhelming force, while at the same time embrace, even embody victimhood, (bit like Liverpool), to elicit western as well as Jewish sympathy and support.

This is best captured by the Hebrew phrase, yorim ve bochim, literally "shooting and crying". This is done with cheap cliches and crude lies using Western media.

Another Yiddish word 'Chutzpah'.

Its meaning is best explained in anecdotes. For example, killing one's own parents and then begging the court to have mercy on an orphan. Or, as the Arab proverb goes, "He hit me and cried, went ahead of me and whined."

'Chutzpah' in israel is seen as street, nervy and clever. It is used in everyday life and Foreign Policy.

The mother of all chutzpahs came from the late Israeli premier Golda Meir about half a century ago: "We can forgive the Arabs for killing our sons , but we can never forgive them for forcing us to kill their children." The new version blames the Palestinians for civilian deaths in Gaza, and praises Israel for sparing lives, even after the Israel offensive kills over a thousand Palestinians.

It's the ultimate chutzpah when Israel government expresses empathy with the ill-fated civilian victims, as it gives the orders to the Israeli military to bomb entire Palestinian communities.

Rarely is chutzpah more pronounced as when Israel provokes attacks and cries self-defence.

Israel's offensive against Gaza in 2006 came after the killing of 85 Palestinians, including many children, in attacks aimed at carrying out illegal extrajudicial assassinations. At the time, the Hamas government maintained a one-sided ceasefire for 15 months, but continued Israeli attacks made Palestinian retaliation only a question of time.

Although Israel's provocations don't justify suicide bombings against Israeli civilians, they demonstrate why the main source of violence lies first and foremost in Israel's pre-emptive strategy.

So when you hear those responsible for more than 40 years of occupation ranting about the violation of a four-hour ceasefire, think chutzpah. And when the occupiers continue to whine about security in order to deny the indigenous people of the land the same rights for security and peace in their own land, think chutzpah.

If Israelis have a right to security, independence and freedom, the Palestinians have the same rights and perhaps more of a right after decades of Israeli terror, military occupation, and dispossession.

[CHOULO19 24,332]

Another two massacres today. Another attack on an UNRWA school in the morning killed 19; almost all women and children.

Then during the 4-hour "ceasefire" in the afternoon, when people went out to the market to restock, the IOF targeted the crowded market place. 17 people killed including a journalist and cameraman and two paramedics and about 200 injured.

I don't have words anymore. Sigh...

[Dion 2,476]

How likely is it for muslim countries to interfere military again in the conflict if Israel goes on with this massacre? How attached are they to the palestinians, who are fellow muslims?

Realistically speaking, I can see only two outcomes to this. Israel killing the last palestinian and nobody giving a shit or muslim countries deciding it's enough and wiping Israel from existance.

[Fulham Broadway 17,339]

Another two massacres today. Another attack on an UNRWA school in the morning killed 19; almost all women and children.

Then during the 4-hour "ceasefire" in the afternoon, when people went out to the market to restock, the IOF targeted the crowded market place. 17 people killed including a journalist and cameraman and two paramedics and about 200 injured.

I don't have words anymore. Sigh...

Know what you mean. Its not flavour of the month with corporate media headlines now -ebola virus and immigration taken over here.

What is cathartic though when youve lost words is actions. I have been on two demonstrations now. Maybe it doesnt change much, but you can let off steam. Are there any protests in lebanon ?

[Mohammed Seif 1,451]

How likely is it for muslim countries to interfere military again in the conflict if Israel goes on with this massacre? How attached are they to the palestinians, who are fellow muslims?

Realistically speaking, I can see only two outcomes to this. Israel killing the last palestinian and nobody giving a shit or muslim countries deciding it's enough and wiping Israel from existance.

First of all it is not a religious war, so the terminology is somewhat inaccurate. It is not some sort of crusade. But let us look at the region. Which "Arab Muslim" has an army capable of fighting Israel? No more Syria, no more Iraq. There is only one country that has the military capability to take on Israel and that is Egypt. We have a peace treaty with Israel so that can't happen. You also have to know that if Israel is attacked by a "proper army", other countries will join with Israel, That was the case in 1973, where the U.S sent in planes with fighters. A war with Israel means a war with atleast two or three countries. I don't think the U.K will sit and watch. Some sort of coalition will be formed to defend Israel. You need more than one army. If Egypt didn't have the treaty, things might have been different.

[CHOULO19 24,332]

Know what you mean. Its not flavour of the month with corporate media headlines now -ebola virus and immigration taken over here.

What is cathartic though when youve lost words is actions. I have been on two demonstrations now. Maybe it doesnt change much, but you can let off steam. Are there any protests in lebanon ?

Not 'protests' because by our constitution Israel is an enemy; more like support rallies. I went to one, but there aren't many happening because car bombs are still a threat, so the gouvernment is wary of any crowded demonstrations.

There have been a few gestures which probably psychelogically help more. The parliament had a special session in support of Gaza and Am Musil in Iraq, and the names if all the martyrs were hung on the iconic Rawshe rock in Beirut.

But the gesture that really moved me, was all the news stations of all the political parties in Lebanon, the parties that have been fighting since forever, came together and broadcasted a unified news bulliten in support of Gaza. If you know the depth of the political disagreements in Lebanon, you'd know how big a step that is.

Social media and on forums is where I let off steam. I think exposing the truth to the whole world, especially people in the west, can make a difference. Tjanks to social media, this has been one of the best covered attack on Gaza I have witnessed, and this has helped sway the opinions of a lot of people, especially in Europe.

[Dion 2,476]

First of all it is not a religious war, so the terminology is somewhat inaccurate. It is not some sort of crusade. But let us look at the region. Which "Arab Muslim" has an army capable of fighting Israel? No more Syria, no more Iraq. There is only one country that has the military capability to take on Israel and that is Egypt. We have a peace treaty with Israel so that can't happen. You also have to know that if Israel is attacked by a "proper army", other countries will join with Israel, That was the case in 1973, where the U.S sent in planes with fighters. A war with Israel means a war with atleast two or three countries. I don't think the U.K will sit and watch. Some sort of coalition will be formed to defend Israel. You need more than one army. If Egypt didn't have the treaty, things might have been different.

I never said it was a religious war. But muslim countries seem the most probable candidates to care about what happens to the palestinians. I also didn't mean only the countries who share borders. Does Iran care, for example?

[CHOULO19 24,332]

How likely is it for muslim countries to interfere military again in the conflict if Israel goes on with this massacre? How attached are they to the palestinians, who are fellow muslims?

Realistically speaking, I can see only two outcomes to this. Israel killing the last palestinian and nobody giving a shit or muslim countries deciding it's enough and wiping Israel from existance.

Very unlikely. There is a lot if sympathy and outrage in the region from the people, Muslim or otherwise, but all the governments don't come near living up to the peoples wishes when it comes to Palestine. Arab leaders are mostly traitors that would sell their own children for power.

It's a bit more complicated than that though. Arabs are notoriously terrible at politics. Our cultures seem unable to see long term in anything so either decisions are made on current petty political issues. Right now, Qatar supports and fund Hamas because they are trying to buy their way into a political role in the region that is bigger than them. KSA naturally does the opposite and are most likely funding the Israeli army in secret. Under the table as well, Iran is arming some of the Palestinian resistance militias, including Hamas (or some parts of Hamas, at least). Hamas is coy of the Iranan support because their main sponsor, Qatar, are in a Cold War, a long with most of the gulf, with Iran. But the Iranians are much better at politics than us and can see the big long term picture so they are fine with arming them without getting the recognition.

In Lebanon, Hezbollah has trained the Palestinian resistance before the war in Syria and even helped arming both directly and indirectly through teaching them how to manufacture the weapons themselves. This attack seems to have mended the broken relationship between Hezboullah and Hamas.

[Mohammed Seif 1,451]

I never said it was a religious war. But muslim countries seem the most probable candidates to care about what happens to the palestinians. I also didn't mean only the countries who share borders. Does Iran care, for example?

Sure, Arab Muslim countries are the candidates, but you have to look at their current economical status and military power. The strongest military countries are Egypt and Algeria. Before it was those two plus Syria and Iraq. Still they weren't that strong, but sufficient enough to cause damage if united with Egypt and Algeria. 25% of the Arab population are Egyptian. Iraq is lost so is Syria. So out of the Arab countries two are still capable only. Now Let us look at Iran like you suggested. Iran has one of the strongest military power in the region. Economically devastated. They are capable of defensive operations but not an offensive one. Even of they do have the capability to attack. The U.S have been targeting Iran since they removed the Shah of Iran. Just before the U.S turned its back on Iraq, it aided them to enter a long 8 year war with Iran in 1980. It was a chemical warfare btw, where the U.S aided the aggressors at the time (Iraq). That failed and they have been waiting since to figure a way to dismantle Iran. That was actually one of the main reasons Iran seeked nuclear power because it is feeling constant threat. Now Iran is being portrayed throughout the world as a major threat, not only to the region but to the world. Can you imagine what would happen if Iran fires a bullet towards Israel? Do you know how many countries will attack Iran? Not only will Iran fail to defend Palestinians, it will fail to protect itself. Fighting Israel means fighting more than one country. It means atleast fighting Israel and the U.S. So by all means it is not a simple decision. But, if you observe carefully, things are about to change within the next decade or so.

[Fulham Broadway 17,339]

Not 'protests' because by our constitution Israel is an enemy; more like support rallies. I went to one, but there aren't many happening because car bombs are still a threat, so the gouvernment is wary of any crowded demonstrations.

There have been a few gestures which probably psychelogically help more. The parliament had a special session in support of Gaza and Am Musil in Iraq, and the names if all the martyrs were hung on the iconic Rawshe rock in Beirut.

But the gesture that really moved me, was all the news stations of all the political parties in Lebanon, the parties that have been fighting since forever, came together and broadcasted a unified news bulliten in support of Gaza. If you know the depth of the political disagreements in Lebanon, you'd know how big a step that is.

Social media and on forums is where I let off steam. I think exposing the truth to the whole world, especially people in the west, can make a difference. Tjanks to social media, this has been one of the best covered attack on Gaza I have witnessed, and this has helped sway the opinions of a lot of people, especially in Europe.

Good that lebanon is united about it. Just watched a film on al jazeera, and before the terrified gaza residents can blame Israel many are saying 'where are our arab brothers ?'

Its a tragic situation, and you know israel before they stop will commit an even bigger atrocity, as they always do.

Its not a normal situation, however the media like to portray it as two equal sides, as we know. In a normal conflict situation, the bottom line in terms of resolution is talk. Jaw, jaw, not war war. However this is the last thing Israel wants, they want to get rid of Gaza and have it like they have all the other occupied land, so they will constantly provoke and kill. Unfortunately there are no organisations that can help that much - we learned during my politics degree how US controlled the UN is- but perhaps the best hope is from the Arab league. They need to make concerted efforts, not to israel as this is pissing in the wind, but to the US and the west. History would need to be dug up, and truths presented about the artificial borders set up by the west and colonialism. A united arab diplomatic front, composed of muslim, christian, jewish representatives is to my mind the best hope of restraining israel, and a more important goal than a two state solution. Thoughts ?

[CHOULO19 24,332]

Sure, Arab Muslim countries are the candidates, but you have to look at their current economical status and military power. The strongest military countries are Egypt and Algeria. Before it was those two plus Syria and Iraq. Still they weren't that strong, but sufficient enough to cause damage if united with Egypt and Algeria. 25% of the Arab population are Egyptian. Iraq is lost so is Syria. So out of the Arab countries two are still capable only. Now Let us look at Iran like you suggested. Iran has one of the strongest military power in the region. Economically devastated. They are capable of defensive operations but not an offensive one. Even of they do have the capability to attack. The U.S have been targeting Iran since they removed the Shah of Iran. Just before the U.S turned its back on Iraq, it aided them to enter a long 8 year war with Iran in 1980. It was a chemical warfare btw, where the U.S aided the aggressors at the time (Iraq). That failed and they have been waiting since to figure a way to dismantle Iran. That was actually one of the main reasons Iran seeked nuclear power because it is feeling constant threat. Now Iran is being portrayed throughout the world as a major threat, not only to the region but to the world. Can you imagine what would happen if Iran fires a bullet towards Israel? Do you know how many countries will attack Iran? Not only will Iran fail to defend Palestinians, it will fail to protect itself. Fighting Israel means fighting more than one country. It means atleast fighting Israel and the U.S. So by all means it is not a simple decision. But, if you observe carefully, things are about to change within the next decade or so.

The KSA has spent hundreds of billions of dollars on weapons. So has half the gulf countries..

But forget the weapons, even forget the oil card, which is one the most powerful cards on the world, no fat king or prince or even official from the gulf has so much as condemned the attack so far. We are all partners in the crime.

[Dion 2,476]

If none of them is going to interfere I can only assume Palestinians are definitely doomed. The israeli right wing only grows stronger by the day. Extremists gather more and more followers in both sides, which only takes us further away from peace and will only bring more attacks and hatred.

But what pisses me off more than anything else about this is that jews should know better than anyone else how it feels to be expelled from your own land and to be discriminated against. Or how it feels to have another people try to exterminate your own people. Hypocrisy doesn't even come close to describe the situation. When they were weaker and minority in Palestine, this was not the way they were treated. I mean, there were of course problems here and there, as one should expect from two different groups living together, but not government enforced discrimination like what we're seeing now.

Human stupidity annoys me like no other.

[CHOULO19 24,332]

Good that lebanon is united about it. Just watched a film on al jazeera, and before the terrified gaza residents can blame Israel many are saying 'where are our arab brothers ?'

Its a tragic situation, and you know israel before they stop will commit an even bigger atrocity, as they always do.

Its not a normal situation, however the media like to portray it as two equal sides, as we know. In a normal conflict situation, the bottom line in terms of resolution is talk. Jaw, jaw, not war war. However this is the last thing Israel wants, they want to get rid of Gaza and have it like they have all the other occupied land, so they will constantly provoke and kill. Unfortunately there are no organisations that can help that much - we learned during my politics degree how US controlled the UN is- but perhaps the best hope is from the Arab league. They need to make concerted efforts, not to israel as this is pissing in the wind, but to the US and the west. History would need to be dug up, and truths presented about the artificial borders set up by the west and colonialism. A united arab diplomatic front, composed of muslim, christian, jewish representatives is to my mind the best hope of restraining israel, and a more important goal than a two state solution. Thoughts ?

Honestly, I have more faith in Israel than in the Arab league! They're all a bunch of over fed tyrants that know nothing and care nothing about the people. All they care about is power and sex. Just look up the quotes by Tzipi Livni where she said that she slept with some Arab leaders when she the minister of foreign affairs to get them to change their political stance including dropping their support for Lebanon during the 2006 assault.

If there ever will be a change to the current 'equation' it would mostly likely come from the people themselves.

[Dion 2,476]

I also find it funny when israelis talk about fighting terrorism and not compromising with terrorist groups when they had the "paramilitary" group Haganah/Irgun - it never ceases to amaze me which groups history decides to name terrorist or paramilitary/freedom fighters/resistance/militia/whatever.

[Fulham Broadway 17,339]

Honestly, I have more faith in Israel than in the Arab league! They're all a bunch of over fed tyrants that know nothing and care nothing about the people. All they care about is power and sex. Just look up the quotes by Tzipi Livni where she said that she slept with some Arab leaders when she the minister of foreign affairs to get them to change their political stance including dropping their support for Lebanon during the 2006 assault.

If there ever will be a change to the current 'equation' it would mostly likely come from the people themselves.

Jesus! ' More faith in israel than the arab league' they must be bad. Unfortunately "change from the people" would not include israelis seeing as more than 90% support the slaughter. Even knesset dissenters are ousted and branded as traitors.

The future looks very bleak for Palestinians, save an ideological global moment of truth -we're all spinning on a ball in space, all money spent on weapons should be spent on exploring that space, no nation states, no gods, no masters.

[Mohammed Seif 1,451]

The KSA has spent hundreds of billions of dollars on weapons. So has half the gulf countries..

But forget the weapons, even forget the oil card, which is one the most powerful cards on the world, no fat king or prince or even official from the gulf has so much as condemned the attack so far. We are all partners in the crime.

I kind of disagree with you there. They all did condemn it, but they don't want to give legitimacy to Hamas. You know that Hamas had no legitimacy on Egypt in the days of Mubarak. In a nutshell, because they starting killing soldiers on the borders and due to what they did to Fateh. On the other hand, as you accurately said, Qatar is trying to make a name for itself. You probably also know that there were plans to break down KSA through the militants in Yemen. Hamas are being funded by Qatar like you said. Hezbollah provided the training while Iran provide the weapons. Now look at the Gulf region, Iran constantly threatens the gullf countries and it has warned before that the first thing it will do if attacked by the U.S is fire at the oil fields of the gulf.

So things are pretty much intertwined here.

The only weapon the Gulf countries have is oil. Whatever billions are spent in weapons is accurate. But by all means this is not spending for war. Qatar who spent 11 billion dollars this year to but weapons from the U.S wasn't because they need it as a military. Invading Qatar will take 24 hrs tops, just like Iraq invaded Kuwait. They did it in half a day. Qatar gives these weapons to different groups. Hamas is one, but also you should take a look at Libya. The militants are getting their weapons from Qatar. KSA on the other hand were heavily funding the resistance in Syria when the revolution turned into a civil war. So don't be fooled by the money they spend on weapons. There will be no war without AT LEAST Egypt. And you know how passionate the Egyptians feel (as people) about Palestine. But that simply will not happen now because of that peace treaty.

I agree with you that we are all partners in the crime. But not for long. Look carefully at the region. Somethings are changing. A power is rising. And it is getting unprecedented political and financial (economical) aid from a lot around it. The few upcoming years will flip the situation upside down.

[Mohammed Seif 1,451]

Good that lebanon is united about it. Just watched a film on al jazeera, and before the terrified gaza residents can blame Israel many are saying 'where are our arab brothers ?'

Its a tragic situation, and you know israel before they stop will commit an even bigger atrocity, as they always do.

Its not a normal situation, however the media like to portray it as two equal sides, as we know. In a normal conflict situation, the bottom line in terms of resolution is talk. Jaw, jaw, not war war. However this is the last thing Israel wants, they want to get rid of Gaza and have it like they have all the other occupied land, so they will constantly provoke and kill. Unfortunately there are no organisations that can help that much - we learned during my politics degree how US controlled the UN is- but perhaps the best hope is from the Arab league. They need to make concerted efforts, not to israel as this is pissing in the wind, but to the US and the west. History would need to be dug up, and truths presented about the artificial borders set up by the west and colonialism. A united arab diplomatic front, composed of muslim, christian, jewish representatives is to my mind the best hope of restraining israel, and a more important goal than a two state solution. Thoughts ?

Things will definitely not come out of the Arab league. But a few Arab countries.

[Amblève. 4,995]

How likely is it for muslim countries to interfere military again in the conflict if Israel goes on with this massacre? How attached are they to the palestinians, who are fellow muslims?

Realistically speaking, I can see only two outcomes to this. Israel killing the last palestinian and nobody giving a shit or muslim countries deciding it's enough and wiping Israel from existance.

Oh hello WW3!

[Dion 2,476]

Oh hello WW3!

That would be a possibility. It would get pretty insane if there were nuclear bombs involved from Israel and Iran.