CHOULO19

Yes he did not create much chances through passes but he did create A LOT of space with his movement. KDB, Oscar and Hazard always found space to run into centrally and that is because Torres made countless runs to the wings and dropped into the whole and allowed one of the three to run beyond him into the vacant space. For me, the first half against Hull is exactly why he is currently our best striker and why he fits better into the team than the others.

Except reality does not agree with your theory. Action maps for Ramires against Hull then United: As opposed to two random action maps for Mikel where he played 90 mins as well against Sunderland and Liverpool: As you can clearly see that they are both playing at approximately the same depth both against the strong team where we had to defend (utd and liverpool) and the weaker team where we were on the front foot. So no, Ramires is NOT playing more advanced than Mikel usually does. In fact, if there is any major difference to take from these examples it is that, contrary to popular belief, Mikel seems to be moving more around the pitch while Ramires looks too restricted in that central area and around the halfway circle. Ramires has also not made any interceptions in either game so again, no, he's not winning the ball further up the field, while Mikel had 3 interceptions vs Liverpool and one vs Sunderland. If you want to compare passing, Ramires has had an average pass length of 17m, exactly the same as Mikel had last season with 41.4% of Ramires' passes were backwards while Mikel had 35% backwards last season. Ramires has been playing the holding role this season and he's been trying to do it exactly like Mikel has been doing it for years because that is how a holding midfielder plays. He did well against Hull and Villa but could not do the same against united under more pressure.

I do agree that Lukaku would have been better against Villa (in theory, because in practice I don't think it would have made any difference since none of the AMs were going wide but insisted on going through the center). But I also think that Lukaku would have been invisible against united (see our game against Madrid in preseason) and that Torres did much better than Lukaku would have done against Hull. All in all, I think most of the time, it would be better to start Torres and bring Lukaku on as a sub.

I choose to put him on the bench in the big games and play him against smaller teams because his ability to score is incredibly effective against them.

Can't wrap my head on how Mata is on 50K/wk while Ba and Cahill are on 80. Anyway, back to Ba.

Yes, I'm not disagreeing that Lukaku makes more space for himself than Torres, but it just so happens that we, as a team, play much better when space is made for the AMs and not the striker because our whole system is built around the AMs not the striker. I'm not saying he doesn't get dispossessed often. But so do Lukaku and Torres. I used Lukaku's stats at WBA because those are the only ones available, but at the same time I highlighted how we play different styles and how his attributes would not work here as well as they did at WBA.

So I take it Willian will definitely be starting?

I was one of the very few people criticizing Torres when people were making ridiculous excuses like Malouda hates him and Kalou doesn't pass to him and our midfield is too slow for him and that it's just a matter of time till he gets back to his best. He never got back to his best and he never will. But he has improved and adjusted to our system. But now instead of the ridiculous excuses the new trend seems to be ridiculous hate towards him despite us not having any better options. It seems this man can only inspire extreme opinions.

Well we're not going to get to any rational conclusion with exaggerations like he looses the ball 50% of the time he gets it. Here's a comparison from this season: Torres had 16 successful passes in 70 mins against Hull as opposed to only 8 passes in 65 mins by Ba. Torres seems to understand our AMs better and for me links up with them much better Lukaku who likes to play while facing the goal and Ba who usually takes up the space that the AMs like to run into. Movement is not only on the ball, but off it as well. Torres makes runs to the wings and into the whole and exchanges positions with the three players behind him which creates spaces and shooting opportunities. Yes, Torres creates more space than Ba and Lukaku. I'm not concerned with individual events. Like I said, he's far from world-class, and similarly you could find more than a hundred times when Lukaku should have passed but instead insisted on dribbling and lost possession. That's your opinion that Lukaku is a better striker atm, but I disagree. I think he can be a super sub but still needs a lot to be a starter. I explained why here: http://forum.talkchelsea.net/topic/16615-player-focus-romelu-lukaku/ All those stats are of Lukaku's time at Albion and Ba's time at Newcastle so they mean absolutely nothing since we play a completely different system.

Then by all means continue moaning about it

Maybe, but still way too much considering he was probably making less than half of that at Bolton.

Your not going to get that with Frank next to him. Jose will never leave gaps between his midfield and back four and Frank..well, he thinks of himself as a forward.

His movement creates a lot of space for our AMs to drift centrally and make runs into the box. He also links up with our AMs much better than both Ba and Lukaku. Ba offers something different as a target man, but his form has been terrible for a while now and his conversation rate makes me want to cry. On the other hand Lukaku is faster and a better dribbler, but despite his physical strength, he's still unable to play well with his back to goal. Torres' decision making (as in when to shoot, when to pass and to where) is also better than Romelu's which is expected due to the lack of experience. His first touch also often lets him down. I highlighted all this in the article i wrote about Lukaku if you read it.

Of course you can't replace the puppy with KDB or Oscar, they're not cute enough!

And Garry Cahill on 80K is not? We over-pay for everyone in terms of wages. Hell, even Yossi f***ing Benayoun was on 80K IIRC!

I've said over a month ago and I'll say it again: The sooner you accept that Torres is our first choice striker the more moaning and cry you save yourselves. Yes, he's no where near a world-class striker, but at the moment he's our best striker. Accept it, embrace it, learn to live with it.

IIRC he used to get 20K at Newcastle in the weeks where he does not play and 40K in the weeks that he does. It was said that we double this when he moved here.

Yeah maybe, but I think the Spanish league would really suite him, certainly better than the Championship.

Yeah I know. We were winning that game until he came off I hope he stays as well. I've been saying from the beginning that Josh is not a player who we should loan out (although the Real Sociedad thing was interesting).

There is absolutely no need to aim this kind of language at another member and it won't be tolerated on this forum.

Of course, if he isn't loaned out by then. There were strong rumors a month or so ago that he'd be heading out on loan but it has all died down a bit. Perhaps we're still looking for the most suitable loan or perhaps Jose has changed his mind and wants him with the U21s and around the first team.

Your first post is too long, I just skimmed it

I know, but these people will get games when the schedule 'thickens up' and we start getting two games each week (well, I hope they do, although early signs aren't very reassuring). But the club usually has a policy of playing youngsters from the youth academy in the League Cup.

I bet Barca and united get two of Schalke, Marseille and CSKA When's the draw, btw? Is it this Friday?

Guys, let's keep the Bayern discussion in the prematch thread.