Oscar

[OhForAGreavsie 5,775]

never said the opposite, but you - alongside others - were harsh on him for picking up five incomplete passes in the second half and calling him sloppy in those 45 minutes when the team as a whole relaxed. Still he almost scored another beautiful goal, took part in some of our best attacks in the second and would surely score had Surely not done it before him... Harsh in my book.

To each their own, but I think there has been a lot of nitpicking with Oscar. It seems the kid never wins. Few people mention and give him credit and praise for scoring very early opening goals (I guess it was his third or forth this season), or for scoring the opening goal regardless of when, or for having a combined of 13 goals and assists in 19 matches in the league, 8 of which in the last 9.

All I see is this thread being on fire when he's bad - and I admit he goes through really bad spans - and either quiet (apart from the usual Oscar 'fans') or nitpicking on what he doesn't do when he does well or at least gets himself in the scoresheet. Go back the last pages and nobody is detracting from their assessments, nobody apart from the usual members are giving him credit. It seems like most people purposefully ignore him when he does well, but make sure to pop when he doesn't and are also supportive and argumentative on the nitpicking.

When he has a bad match people will make sure to leave a post saying so. The pages of this thread tells this story, not me. He is far from being consistent enough or the end product, but he's far from being as useless as many of you claim. Even you changed your instance about his future.

I'm not against criticizing him, it's just the tone in this thread is harsh in general given his age and his contributions (even if they aren't consistent enough).

That's not fair. Not when 1) most of Oscar's goals are more an individual effort than a collective one; 2) a player like Mata is in the team supposedly to bail them out of the jail, he has the skills for that; 3) until a couple of weeks ago Oscar was called the weak link of the team.

Makes no sense to say Mata can't deliver better in a team where he serves Rooney, van Persie and Falcao. Or is served by di María, Rooney and others. For all the worship here about him being a little genius, he shouldn't be so dependable on others to have better stats as his main job is to create. He is the guy who creates, not the guy others create for him. Not uncommon to see all kind of excuses made for Mata.

As usual, double standards, but I'm not saying you don't have a right to think like that.

The criticism of Oscar does not stem from his having a poor 45 minutes. In fact I specifically said, after his horrendous first half vs Newcastle, that it would be wrong to judge him on such a display. If people mentioned 45 minutes against this team, or that team, it was only as yet another example of his poor play and not as a sole reason to be unhappy with him.

The criticism exists because the sloppiness has been going on for as long as Oscar has been here. At first it was not commented on because everyone, quite rightly, wanted to be supportive and give him time. He benefited from a honeymoon period during which people were determined to be pleased with everything he did well, and equally determined to forgive, ignore or excuse, everything he did not do well. Honeymoons don't last forever however, and eventually the situation could no longer be avoided. It was then that the negative observations became more frequent and then too that it became fashionable to blame Oscar's poor displays on tiredness.

It seems unlikely that you and I will ever agree on the reason for Oscar's sloppiness, we perhaps won't even agree about precisely how long it's been going on, but we can agree, can't we, that it's been a good while now?

As for the Mata comparison, I guess @yuvala is the best person to defend the point he was making.

[LDN Blue 7,903]

The criticism exists because the sloppiness has been going on for as long as Oscar has been here. At first it was not commented on because everyone, quite rightly, wanted to be supportive and give him time. He had a honeymoon period during which people were determined to be pleased with everything he did well, and to forgive, ignore or excuse, everything he did not do well. Honeymoons don't last forever however, and eventually the situation could no longer be avoided. It was then that the negative observations became more frequent and then that it became fashionable to blame Oscar's poor displays on tiredness.

The fundamental difference between the critiques of Oscar as compared to Willian, Salah, Mikel etc are that no-one is saying that Oscar should be sold or dropped indefinitely or anything of that nature.

Most of us really do want Oscar to do well and no-one has taken anything away from the goals and assists he's provided to us this season. The critiques are calls for improvement, not resting our judgements on him never to look back. As I keep saying, Mourinho is probably working on all these negatives aspects and helping Oscar become the world beater he should be.

It may not even take long. When that happens, praise will go to Oscar for consistent class.

[Barbara 15,149]

The criticism of Oscar does not stem from his having a poor 45 minutes. In fact I specifically said, after his horrendous first half vs Newcastle, that it would be wrong to judge him on such a display. If people mentioned 45 minutes against this team, or that team, it was only as yet another example of his poor play and not as a sole reason to be unhappy with him.

The criticism exists because the sloppiness has been going on for as long as Oscar has been here. At first it was not commented on because everyone, quite rightly, wanted to be supportive and give him time. He had a honeymoon period during which people were determined to be pleased with everything he did well, and to forgive, ignore or excuse, everything he did not do well. Honeymoons don't last forever however, and eventually the situation could no longer be avoided. It was then that the negative observations became more frequent and then too that it became fashionable to blame Oscar's poor displays on tiredness.

It seems unlikely that you and I will ever agree on the reason for Oscar's sloppiness, we perhaps won't even agree about precisely how long it's been going on, but we can agree, can't we, that it's been a good while now?

As for the Mata comparison, I guess @yuvala is the best person to defend the point he was making.

I agree on his sloppiness - I agree he's inconsistent. I just find it harsh 1) to ignore his impact LAST match and mention he was sloppy because of 5 passes uncompleted in the second half. People said it in the post match thread and in this thread. They were talking about the Swansea match. It's like they're like 'he did okay, scored twice, BUT was sloppy in the second, BUT lost the ball many times or misplaced many passes'.

Then another discussion started - which I said I agree partially. He's been inconsistent. We should expect more from him, but at the same time, there's only much is fair to ask from a 23yo. Some players peak later than others and I think he's been doing okay lately and has done in some streaks in the past. I for one am happy it's still winter - when he normally struggles - and he's finding his best form. Last season he was in a free fall following the Saints' match where he and Willian won us the match in 20 minutes (the last 20) in the first week of the year.

It's not that we can't say he has to do better, is completely writing him off in the future - as some did, including Skipper, which surprised me - ignoring his age and comparing him to other players either more experienced or playing a completely different kind of opposition. I don't like comparisons in the first place. Mata could be the best player of the league in other country and inexpressive in EPL. KdB found his best form in German football, while here - despite receiving few chances - he didn't seem to fit (seemed a bit too soft, both physically and mentally).

Just because one recognizes the kid has been impacting our games despite not being on his best technically doesn't mean we're ignoring his shortcomings. We're just giving him credit for what he's been good and also recognizing some improvement without ignoring he's still a work in progress.

I feel like I've been repeating myself on this thread over and over for the last three days. We all have different instances on him. Some think his 'supporters' are delusional or blind, others think his critics are too harsh and unfair.

While he scores and assists 8 times in 9 games I won't complain much, I'll at most address some shortcomings, but along with a lot of praising for return. Which other AM has had such return in his latest 9 matches? Fans from other teams would be all over the moon with the substantial and impacting contribution. Chelsea fans are demanding him to be the end product right now and nitpicking five misplaced passes in a second half where we were winning 4-0.

How many times people demanded Oscar and Hazard to impact more directly in the matches? Hazard got some very late recognition about his contributions, and Oscar seems to be on even later recognition. IT seems like we're demanding everything at once. Consistency, creativity, direct impact, growing big balls and resolving when we're struggling. That's too harsh imo. Let the kids grow and mature their games, tactics, deal with their limitations and improve what they aren't naturally doing well. They ARE work in progress

The fundamental difference between the critiques of Oscar as compared to Willian, Salah, Mikel etc are that no-one is saying that Oscar should be sold or dropped indefinitely or anything of that nature.

Most of us really do want Oscar to do well and no-one has taken anything away from the goals and assists he's provided to us this season. The critiques are calls for improvement, not resting our judgements on him never to look back. As I keep saying, Mourinho is probably working on all these negatives aspects and helping Oscar become the world beater he should be.

It may not even take long. When that happens, praise will go to Oscar for consistent class.

I think you've skipped most of the talking in this thread before the Swans match. Many people weren't asking for him to be dropped, but to be replaced by a new signing altogether saying he's not Chelsea material. there aren't many 23yo around the world I'd call Chelsea material tbh.

[RoyalBlues 4,050]

As far as I could remember, when team are under perform, and in particular when Oscar so called 'being shit', at the same time Fabregas is 'shit' and anonymous too.

[BlueLyon 9,359]

1.) Its funny that people are saying why did Mata changed our bench for united one, but in fact he played around 1400mins, more than Oscar. He is quite regular player these days.

2.) 6 goals, 7 assists is not bad for #10 after good half season. It would be nice if people stopped talking about Oscar not delivering enough for #10.

[The Skipper 20,593]

It's not that we can't say he has to do better, is completely writing him off in the future - as some did, including Skipper, which surprised me - ignoring his age and comparing him to other players either more experienced or playing a completely different kind of opposition. I don't like comparisons in the first place.

I've never compared Oscar to other number 10s in this world. I've written Oscar off because I don't think he's improved much at all during his time here. He has not shown enough to me to say that he's going to be one of the best AMs any more - that's the sense I've written him off in. Sure, he could possibly be an important cog in the team as he peaks (which I think he almost mostly has already) but I've given up on the hope that he'll become a top class player. As I've said before, he'll definitely become a good player, but never one of the best or the best in his position.

He hasn't shown enough improvement for me. There are definitely players out there who are as young or even younger than Oscar who would add a lot more to the team IMO, even if they do have some scope to improve. I just don't think Oscar's ceiling is as high as I though it was before (I'm thinking of players like Pogba, Isco and Barkley).

He's more than welcome to prove me wrong though.

[CFC888 219]

I'm not one for stats, but I liked this one that came up on my Facebook today.

Oscar has contributed in 13 goals in EPL this season (6G+7A), more than Hazard who has contributed in 12 (8G+4A) despite Oscar playing 516 mins less.

I am not in any way downgrading Hazard, he has been phenomenal for us this season, and I believe there's no comparison to be made between the two players. What I am saying, however, is that as someone already mentioned on here, goals are so crucial in the game of football, and no-one can doubt Oscar's contribution in this area either from his own boot or by assisting a teammate.

The other thing someone else also stated here was that you take Oscar's goals and assists despite some sloppy passing every day of the week.

Especially when the boy is 23 years old and is still improving, as so many people seem to forget...

[Barbara 15,149]

I've never compared Oscar to other number 10s in this world. I've written Oscar off because I don't think he's improved much at all during his time here. He has not shown enough to me to say that he's going to be one of the best AMs any more - that's the sense I've written him off in. Sure, he could possibly be an important cog in the team as he peaks (which I think he almost mostly has already) but I've given up on the hope that he'll become a top class player. As I've said before, he'll definitely become a good player, but never one of the best or the best in his position.

He hasn't shown enough improvement for me. There are definitely players out there who are as young or even younger than Oscar who would add a lot more to the team IMO, even if they do have some scope to improve. I just don't think Oscar's ceiling is as high as I though it was before (I'm thinking of players like Pogba, Isco and Barkley).

He's more than welcome to prove me wrong though.

I was listing the things that bothered me here, not saying you or someone else said all those things.

Well, as I said to someone else, I respect your (his and everyone else's) feelings on this. I just think it's unfair

[DH1988 1,194]

Stats are such a sometimes misleading way to throw into an argument, I'm not interested in how far a player has run or the start of chances created or sometimes even assists, sorry cesc you are still wonderful.

I watch every game start to finish that I can on stream or TV etc so I'd prefer to go on my own opinion of a player than someone giving me a stat.

Oscar is a good player, he's blue, for that alone he will have my support more often than not unless he plays like Andre.

Consistency and the tired of last year was my issue, he's improved on both somewhat this year and I'll judge him at the end of the season because he was a six month player last year.

23, played far too many games for me. Can he improve? Yes, has he? Yes.

Let's not get stuck in the childish mentality of now now now now, things and improvements take time, Ronaldo wasn't as good as he is now right away actually it took years and years but he improved every year. Not saying Oscar is Ronaldo etc just am example of patience and looking at the bigger picture.. Oscar is better than last year for me and if we continue to want to play with the tactics we do then we need his tenacity as well.

[kellzfresh 7,226]

Stats are such a sometimes misleading way to throw into an argument, I'm not interested in how far a player has run or the start of chances created or sometimes even assists, sorry cesc you are still wonderful.

I watch every game start to finish that I can on stream or TV etc so I'd prefer to go on my own opinion of a player than someone giving me a stat.

Oscar is a good player, he's blue, for that alone he will have my support more often than not unless he plays like Andre.

Consistency and the tired of last year was my issue, he's improved on both somewhat this year and I'll judge him at the end of the season because he was a six month player last year.

23, played far too many games for me. Can he improve? Yes, has he? Yes.

Let's not get stuck in the childish mentality of now now now now, things and improvements take time, Ronaldo wasn't as good as he is now right away actually it took years and years but he improved every year. Not saying Oscar is Ronaldo etc just am example of patience and looking at the bigger picture.. Oscar is better than last year for me and if we continue to want to play with the tactics we do then we need his tenacity as well.

midfielders get better with age and just like Matic, modric, xavi were nobodies at 23, Oscar can easily improve his concentration so that he doesn't misplace easy passes when we are starting a move. His tactical abilities to know when Hazard and fabregas don't go back to defend and go to fill in for them is already fantastic. He just needs more time and maturity to iron out those small deficiencies.

[the wes 7,212]

3 - Oscar has scored 3 and assisted 5 in his last 9 Premier League appearances. The Brazilian playmaker has scored in consecutive league games for the first time since October 2013. He hit the target from three of his five attempts on Saturday, while fashioning one key pass.

[remains of the day 564]

Thanks RoTD.

I understand the point you're making of course. For example, Mata is a better passer than Oscar, yet our team has been improved by replacing the Spaniard with the Brazilian. As you quite rightly say, there are other factors to be taken into account besides just passing. Even so, I don't agree with the idea we should stick with Oscar. I say that, just as we improved our team by trading Mata for a player able to make a more rounded contribution, we can upgrade the side again by trading Oscar for an even more rounded alternative.

Yes, Oscar has made 13 direct contributions to goals and has aided quite a few more indirectly. I would not say however that those would all be lost if Oscar was replaced. Naturally enough, an alternative ten of the right calibre would also make such contributions. Maybe he'd contribute one or two fewer, or maybe one or two more, but by reducing the number of what we're calling sloppy passes, the overall impact of such a player would be more effective.

I have never said that Oscar is a bad player but, in my opinion, there really are too many sloppy passes from him. Those missed passes are momentum changers. If they were completed we'd be in possession, perhaps on the front foot, and sometimes in threatening situations. Because they are missed however, all of those good things come to our opponents instead.

It is a statement of the obvious that every player misses passes and that the more difficult the pass, the greater the likelihood that it will not be completed. There does come a point however when the accumulation of misses starts to weigh against a player.

Someone made the point that we can't have eleven Eden Hazards in the side but I say why not? Clearly the poster wasn't being literal. I think he meant that we can't expect to have a team of players who are all as good at their jobs as Eden is at his but, again, I ask why not? A player who is great at only half of his job is a player that we should be looking to improve on. If, as was the case with Hazard and his commitment to tracking back, that player can make the necessary changes to his game then, fine, stick with him. If not, as was the case with Juan Mata, you have to bite the bullet and make the change.

The question then is where do we stand with Oscar. Is his passing good enough for our requirements and, if not, is he capable of improving this aspect of his play. My answers to those questions are no and no. Others see it differently.

I'll echo DYC in saying that you've articulated your points well so props for that. But if your argument is that Oscar isn't good enough for Chelsea, irrespective of his goals and assists, because his passing isn't up to your standards (which is essentially what you're implying in bolded part of your post) then that's what I would call a hypercriticism.

Oscar's passing has room for improvement. Even those who avidly defend him won't deny that. But overlooking the impact he's made in goals + assists, and assessing his worthiness to this team by a singular standard like passing is nitpicking. That's like writing off Costa because of his weak aerial ability, or Cesc because of his lack of pace or athleticism. I get your point that the team would be more effective if Oscar's passing were better, but the team would also be more effective if Costa were better in aerial duels, or if Cesc had blinding pace. These players might have one one of two limitations but those weaknesses are minutia compared to what they contribute to the team. So while Oscar's passing could certainly be better however his contribution in others aspects is so valuable that it more than compensates for a few misplaced passes.

I think unlike one or two others who have been critical of Oscar, your own problem with Oscar is more about you than any major limitations with the player himself and it seems to me that because Chelsea is a club with big ambitions you're using that to rationalize, quite frankly, overly fastidious criticisms.

Someone made the point that we can't have eleven Eden Hazards in the side but I say why not? Clearly the poster wasn't being literal. I think he meant that we can't expect to have a team of players who are all as good at their jobs as Eden is at his but, again, I ask why not?

A team does not have to have 11 Eden Hazards to compete with the best, a team can have 1 Hazard, 1 Cesc, 1 Costa and an Oscar and guess what, still be very successful. There's having high standards and then there's have unrealistic standards.

[Cescy 40]

@chelseafc: .@oscar8 completed 68 passes against Swansea, more than any other player...

According to FourFourTwo, the biggest pass combination of the game was Oscar-Hazard.

---

I feel like the line is being drawn pretty arbitrarily, regarding this whole 'sloppiness' issue.

[yuvala 2,167]

yuvala will correct me if I'm wrong but his point seems to be that Oscar is playing for a better team and therefore it's reasonable to expect his numbers to be a little elevated by that fact. Or, to put it another way, it would be reasonable to expect Oscar's numbers to be a little less good if he were playing for Man Utd this season instead of for Chelsea. yuvala is therefore arguing that comparing Mata's numbers with Oscar's is not really judging the two players on a level playing field.

Yep.

That's not fair. Not when 1) most of Oscar's goals are more an individual effort than a collective one; 2) a player like Mata is in the team supposedly to bail them out of the jail, he has the skills for that; 3) until a couple of weeks ago Oscar was called the weak link of the team.

Makes no sense to say Mata can't deliver better in a team where he serves Rooney, van Persie and Falcao. Or is served by di María, Rooney and others. For all the worship here about him being a little genius, he shouldn't be so dependable on others to have better stats as his main job is to create. He is the guy who creates, not the guy others create for him. Not uncommon to see all kind of excuses made for Mata.

As usual, double standards, but I'm not saying you don't have a right to think like that.

I'm not saying Oscar doesn't deserve being called "better", I just dont agree with basing it on these stats, I just cant really know for a fact that if Mata played for us he wouldn't have had more goals\assists (or less).

It isn't really about Oscar and Mata but about any comparison of this sort (though obviously it does tell something).

[Chelsea Legend 11 4,062]

I've never compared Oscar to other number 10s in this world. I've written Oscar off because I don't think he's improved much at all during his time here. He has not shown enough to me to say that he's going to be one of the best AMs any more - that's the sense I've written him off in. Sure, he could possibly be an important cog in the team as he peaks (which I think he almost mostly has already) but I've given up on the hope that he'll become a top class player. As I've said before, he'll definitely become a good player, but never one of the best or the best in his position.

He hasn't shown enough improvement for me. There are definitely players out there who are as young or even younger than Oscar who would add a lot more to the team IMO, even if they do have some scope to improve. I just don't think Oscar's ceiling is as high as I though it was before (I'm thinking of players like Pogba, Isco and Barkley).

He's more than welcome to prove me wrong though.

Why isn't that enough for you guys?

If he proves to be an important cog and a lynch pin player for Jose isn't that great for CFC?

As I've said in a previous post if you ask Isco to win 2 tackles a game, test the keeper 3 times a game, score goals and assist goals, press the opposition when out of possession AND do it week in and week out he would likely fail miserably. And I don't know what Ross Barkley you've been watching but this year he's been nothing short of awful, you put him in this team and we'd be MUCH worse off not to mention we'd have to pay upwards of 30m... Pogba is the only guy I think who can impact our lineup positively.

We bought Oscar for something like £20M, we didn't pay over the odds for him. What he's done for the team(never mind individual contributions which have also been good) has made our team much more complete and balanced. I feel sometimes you guys look at the player's skill and not the system we play. Mata was our two time player of the year coming off a season where he had 18 goals and 25 assists in all comps, remarkable. Why was he let go? because he couldn't cope with the demands Jose puts on the team. Oscar isn't always an offensive dynamo but he is a key cog to the overall functionality of the squad. I don't think there are many players in the world today who will get you 10-15 goals, 10-15 assists, 2-2.5 tackles, and be adaptable enough to mark out an opposing attacker. He is a brilliant player who needs to get better in some areas but he is very tough to replace.

[Barbara 15,149]

Yep.

I'm not saying Oscar doesn't deserve being called "better", I just dont agree with basing it on these stats, I just cant really know for a fact that if Mata played for us he wouldn't have had more goals\assists (or less).

It isn't really about Oscar and Mata but about any comparison of this sort (though obviously it does tell something).

Oscar isn't more creative than Mata. He's just more effective and this season even creatively and attacking wise. Which is why I hate to compare players. What's the advantage of Mata being more creative if in the end Oscar has been creating more?

Moot convos imo.

[dee25 1,044]

Just a reminder of some of the assists and goals he's produced this season....

I thought I'd post this because from the comments in the last few pages one would think that Oscar is this player who can't so much as string together 5 passes.

I agree with those who are saying that he has room for improvement and this season I think there are clear signs that Oscar has taken his offensive game up a level, if anything that should give us encouragement that he's capable of improving weak areas of his game. The comments that Oscar won't get any better than he is now are far off the mark.

The one-touch assist he made for Cesc's goal against Palace, his assist for Remy's goal against Swansea, his assist for Costa's goal against West Brom, his assist for Drogba's goal against Spurs - those were all very different assists to 4 very different players but every one of them was incisive. This was a dimension in his game that was lacking last season but he's made noticeable improvements this season. I think people are writing him off too prematurely.

We all want Jose to give more opportunities to the academy youth players, but if you can't be patient with Oscar and allow him time to grow as a player how on earth are you going to be patient with the likes of RLC, Boga etc? Do folks think that these kids are going to come into the team and suddenly turn into world beaters after a season?

[Barbara 15,149]

Just a reminder of some of the assists and goals he's produced this season....

I thought I'd post this because from the comments in the last few pages one would think that Oscar is this player who can't so much as string together 5 passes.

I agree with those who are saying that he has room for improvement and this season I think there are clear signs that Oscar has taken his offensive game up a level, if anything that should give us an encouragement that he's capable of improving weak areas of his game. The comments that Oscar won't get any better than he is now are far off the mark.

The one-touch assist he made for Cesc's goal against Palace, his assist for Remy's goal against Swansea, his assist for Costa's goal against West Brom, his assist for Drogba's goal against Spurs - those were all very different assists to 4 very different players but every one of them was incisive. This was a dimension in his game that was lacking last season but he's made noticeable improvements this season. I think people are writing him off too prematurely.

We all want Jose to give more opportunities to the academy youth players, but if you can't be patient with Oscar and allow him time to grow as a player how on earth are you going to be patient with the likes of RLC, Boga etc? Do folks think that these kids are going to come into the team and suddenly turn into world beaters after a season?

excellent points made - especially the last paragraph. Interesting enough the people that can't wait for Oscar to develop or that say he won't get any better are the ones that always give stick to Mourinho for not developing youth. As if they're patient enough - to wait and see instead of writing young players off.

Again, amazing post, Dee.