The English Football Thread

[Vesper 30,091]

Liverpool have doubled their income in six years. Now they’re chasing Man Utd

https://theathletic.com/1899560/2020/07/03/liverpool-title-money-deloitte-league-manchester-united-hogan-billy/

Billy Hogan joined Fenway Sports Group in 2004, the year the Boston Red Sox, the company’s first big purchase and prize asset, snapped an 86-year curse by winning the World Series.

A born salesman, Hogan rose through the ranks and was the obvious choice to take charge of Liverpool’s commercial operation in 2012, two years after Fenway had added the Reds to the Red Sox. After all, if he had spent eight years working with one of the most famous franchises in American sport, what could be so special about a team that had just finished eighth in the Premier League?

Hogan, who was only 37 when appointed chief commercial officer, soon found out that the Boston Red Sox open doors from California to Connecticut but Liverpool get you out of windowless rooms on the other side of the world.

“I was travelling on club business some years ago to Jakarta and when you get there, you pay £25 or something for a visa that they put in your passport,” Hogan tells The Athletic a week after the team have broken their own 30-year title hoodoo.

“But when I tried to do it, there were no more pages left and this caused a bit of an issue. I was taken off to some office deep in the airport and this guy was waving my passport around while smoking a cigarette and talking to somebody on the phone. He wasn’t very pleased and I was thinking, ‘Well, I’m not going to make my meeting’.

“But then he asked me what I was doing in Jakarta and I said I was there on business, and he asked who I worked for, so I said Liverpool Football Club. He immediately put the phone down and said ‘Big Reds’ and gave me a big hug. That’s our supporters’ club in Indonesia.

“He peeled off a little stamp that was on the visa and stuck that in my passport. He then led me through the airport, gave me another hug and waved me on my way.

“It’s always nice to see the red ‘B’ on caps all over the world and certainly, in the US, you would say the Boston Red Sox and New York Yankees are the two biggest brands in baseball.

“But Liverpool are different because football is the most popular sport in the world, the Premier League is the most popular league in that sport and Liverpool are one of the most popular teams in that league. It’s just a different scale.”

In purely financial terms, the two teams are pretty even.

The Red Sox, who have won the World Series three more times since 2004, have an annual turnover of more than £400 million, while Liverpool cleared the £500 million barrier in 2019, the season they won their sixth Champions League crown. But in its 2019 sports team valuation list, the business magazine Forbes had the Red Sox £800 million higher than their soccer stablemates.

That is a reflection of the huge broadcast contracts and tight wage control which help most US sports franchises make steady profits, year in, year out, with no fear of relegation. But Liverpool look pretty safe in the Premier League and when you factor in their potential to grow as a business, it is not hard to see what gets Hogan out of bed at 7am to answer questions about the club’s digital strategy.

The Red Sox have 2.1 million Twitter followers, Liverpool have 14.8 million. On Instagram, it is 1.8 million versus 26.6 million, and on Facebook, it is 5.2 million against 36 million.

And the weight of those numbers is starting to tell.

According to Deloitte’s Football Money League, the £553 million Liverpool earned last season is the seventh-highest income in global football, only marginally behind Manchester City in sixth place. Barcelona led the way with earnings of £741 million, £74 million more than Spanish rivals Real Madrid. Manchester United were third on £627 million, with Bayern Munich and Paris Saint-Germain completing the top five.

But Liverpool, now the English, European and world champions, look like a club with the wind in their sails. Their income has doubled in the last six years and, as Deloitte noted, they “have the clubs above them in their sights rather than those behind. The long-term ambitions of a top-five Money League position in future editions are not unrealistic”.

Tim Crow is a sports marketing expert, who advises leading brands, teams and sports.

“The historic context is important,” Crows explains. “Liverpool were dominant in the years before 1990 and this gave them a very big fanbase in this market and elsewhere, which is something they have in common with Manchester United.

“These two are by far the biggest brands in British football and while Liverpool can talk about Shankly and their European titles, Manchester United have the Busby Babes, Best, Law and Charlton. And these allegiances have been handed down from one generation to another, which is why you have all these 30-year-olds celebrating their first Liverpool title.”

So does that mean anyone could have made a financial success out of Liverpool? Is it not so much that they are back but that they never went away?

“If I had to use a word to describe Liverpool before Fenway took over, it would be ‘chaotic’,” says Crow.

“To give you an example, I worked on a campaign with Betfair when it was launched. We wanted the biggest possible audience and we also wanted to create a sense of competition, because that is how the betting exchange works, with fans betting against each other.

“So we decided to go out and sign deals with Barca and Real, and Liverpool and United. We signed with Barca and United pretty quickly but we couldn’t get Real because they already had a betting partner, which happens.

“But with Liverpool, the talks were such a shambles, we decided to walk away. I had to advise Betfair that these guys just wouldn’t be good partners. There are very few times in my career when I’ve walked away from a deal like that.

“But from the moment Fenway came in, things have changed. They’re just very smart.”

Hogan is too modest to say if he agrees with that but he does not pull any punches about the situation Fenway inherited when they bought Liverpool from American businessmen George Gillett and Tom Hicks for £300 million in 2010.

“The position of the club was pretty stark. It was on the brink of bankruptcy, not in a good place at all,” he says. “The statement we heard a lot was that Liverpool was a sleeping giant and that seemed quite accurate. We knew Liverpool had a massive supporter base and wherever you travelled in the world, you could find Liverpool fans.

“But everything is based on the success of the team. It’s why Fenway does this — whether that’s with Liverpool, the Red Sox or any of our other entities.

“The goal is to win in a sustainable way and the more you win, the more commercial success we can have, which in turn, can help the football side of the club. It’s a virtuous cycle.”

For Hogan, that cycle started in 2012 when Adidas walked away from a renewal negotiation for Liverpool’s kit deal, saying the club’s on-field performance was “not in the right balance” with Fenway’s valuation of the shirt.

Many would have panicked. Hogan and his team went out and doubled the club’s money with a £25 million deal with Warrior Sports, a Boston-based brand keen to break out of their ice hockey and lacrosse niche into the world’s favourite game. Three years later, Warrior’s parent company New Balance took over the contract, a changing of the guard that coincided with Jurgen Klopp’s arrival on Merseyside.

“Look at how they played the long game when Adidas walked away in 2012,” says Crow.

“They went with Warrior, who nobody had heard of and it brought them a load of stick, but that became the New Balance deal, which has been a proper partnership, benefiting both parties. And now they’ve signed a deal with Nike that should take them to the next level.

“On the sponsorship side, they’ve got Standard Chartered on the shirt front, Western Union on the sleeve and Axa on the training kit as their pillars, with a Manchester United-style multi-partner model that sits underneath that. It’s all very calculated and strategic.

“They rode out the bad press. New Balance wanted to keep the relationship and they did a very good job with it. It was a world-class problem for Liverpool to have.”

The problem Crow refers to is that New Balance loved working with a resurgent Liverpool so much it was willing to take the club to court last year when Fenway received a more exciting offer from Nike, the world largest sportswear company. Liverpool won that argument and, from next year, will be wearing the company’s Swoosh on their chests and seeing their shirts in shop windows from Boston to Beijing.

“The general sense in the market about Liverpool under Fenway is they are smart operators, who have installed good people in the sponsorship and sales teams — they’ve really invested in talent and that has made a good impression,” says Daniel Haddad, the head of commercial strategy at the sports marketing firm Octagon.

“Before Fenway arrived, Liverpool’s commercial operation was pretty underwhelming. Don’t forget, Adidas walked away from the kit deal a few years ago but last year, you had Adidas, Nike and New Balance fighting over them. Getting Standard Chartered to renew with a long-term deal was another good sign and Liverpool have the potential to go past United. All the research suggests they’re on a positive trajectory.

“For a long time, United have been the leaders commercially, certainly in this country, a perception that was reinforced when the Glazers came in, but Liverpool were catching up even before Jurgen Klopp started doing his thing.

“What they’ve been able to do much more successfully over the last two or three years is communicate what is unique about Liverpool as a club. They’ve learned how to speak to brands about the club’s appeal and not just fall back on how big they are or how many followers on social media they have. All of that is important, and some sponsors still only really care about the eyeballs, but the brand side of things is vital these days and Liverpool have been very good at behaving like a brand.

“People take the piss out of the ‘This Means More’ stuff but it has been very effective because they’ve committed to it. It’s more than just a sales pitch.”

Ah, yes, the slogan that one executive from a rival club recently told The Athletic “just winds me up. What does it even mean? It’s just typical of them!”.

So, Billy, what does “This Means More” mean?

“It’s a marketing phrase to some degree but it’s based on some work we commissioned a marketing company to do for us. They surveyed our fans, and people who aren’t fans, and asked what Liverpool meant to them,” explains Hogan (the company, by the way, was Octagon).

“To our supporters, Liverpool FC is a family. We wanted to know how it felt when you pull on your shirt to watch the game. For our fans, Anfield isn’t just a stadium, it’s home. There is something magical about our club.

“OK, you can say it’s marketing lingo, but the idea is based on data from our fans and it does resonate. Of course, to work, it has to be authentic.”

And it does appear to work. Liverpool’s commercial income has tripled in a decade from £62 million to £188 million. Scroll down to the bottom of the Liverpool website and you will find a squad of official partners every bit as strong as Klopp’s team.

“‘This Means More’ sounds more like a campaign to me than a motto but their sponsors love it,” says Richard Adelsberg, managing director at the sport and music agency Ear to the Ground.

“It’s broad enough to apply to almost any brand and it’s easy to understand and translate. Having slogans like these does help you get your ducks in a row when you’re talking to potential sponsors.”

But what really impresses Adelsberg, whose agency uses data from over 6,000 “tastemakers” to inform clients about what’s hot, and what’s not, is how Liverpool learned to let go.

“Liverpool were quite traditional in their approach,” he explains. “A bit like United, they could almost be a bit arrogant about how they dealt with brands because they knew, barring a catastrophe, they would still be a big club.

“But a couple of years ago, they noticed that younger fans were moving towards Manchester City and Chelsea. These younger fans aren’t interested in what a club did 30 years ago. They’re interested in what is happening now. What they really like is where sport, fashion and music intersect.

“Liverpool spotted this just in time, to be honest, and they changed their approach just as the team picked up. One of the first things they did was reach out to Liverpool fans in the esports world, which gave them access to a huge, younger audience.”

It’s unclear whether this was a result of, or the reason for, Fenway hiring Peter Moore from gaming giant Electronic Arts to be Liverpool’s chief executive in 2017, but the results are obvious. Last year, the club’s FIFA Ultimate Team star Donovan “Tekkz” Hunt lifted a championship trophy before club captain Jordan Henderson, although in this case, it was the ePremier League.

“They have also been clever with how they have supported independent outlets like Redmen TV and (fans’ website) Empire of the Kop without trying to control them,” says Adelsberg.

“Another good example would be the relationship they have with (musician) Jamie Webster and his BOSS Night events. They could have ignored this and decided it was too edgy or risky. Lots of other clubs would have backed away, but Liverpool didn’t and it’s developed into something that really resonates with young fans.”

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So they have a massive potential customer base, a good product to sell, a catchy slogan, some tunes and they are down with the kids. But there is more.

“Liverpool never really went away but they have also certainly grown,” says Rory Stewart-Richardson, founder and chief executive of Connexi, an online marketplace that puts sponsors together with rightsholders and vice-versa.

“Manchester United are still smashing it on the sponsorship front because of their heritage and the success they enjoyed under Fergie — that is still hugely appealing to brands, even if they haven’t been as successful on the pitch since Fergie left.

“Liverpool were a bit like that but even before they started winning again. They were closing the gap commercially and the secret has been their digital strategy.

“They have massively increased the level and amount of content they put out for their fans. They’ve done heart-warming and funny videos, interviews and vlogs, they’ve embraced new technology like AR (augmented reality) and VR (virtual reality), and they have invested in cloud-based communications technology.

“Liverpool have the fastest-growing social media presence in football. Everybody is doing it but nobody is doing as well as them. Yes, success on the pitch helps but Liverpool have nailed the digital side.

“Look, everyone wants a viral video but Liverpool’s output is so varied and of consistently high quality. It’s genuinely fan-first content and that’s why it gets more clicks, more likes and more shares.”

Football’s fight for clicks, likes and shares is almost as competitive as the matches. No club can get away with a photo of a manager watching a new signing pretend to scribble their name on a piece of paper these days.

This week’s viral sensation comes courtesy of the Football Association of Iceland — a two-minute video to launch their new logo that references the Game of Thrones, the Cod Wars, Gylfi Siggurdson’s dead-ball prowess and the Viking Clap — but Liverpool’s digital team have been slaying dragons, too.

Recent highlights include a Nivea for Men-branded video of Henderson surprising a life-long Liverpool fan with a Zoom call. The fan had recently lost his mum and dad and needed a good day. His parting comment that the call had “made my life” suggests it works.

But Anfield churns out comedies, too, with February’s advert for coconut milk firm Chaokoh making unlikely light entertainment stars of Roberto Firmino, Joel Matip and Andy Robertson.

“We have focused on digital because it’s quite simply the only way to reach and engage with a fanbase like ours, which is global,” says Hogan.

“We don’t believe there is any one-size-fits-all solution, so while we work hard on our platforms — our app, our website, our social channels — we are present everywhere we need to be. So we’re on (communications app) Line in Japan, (video-sharing network) Douyin in China, TikTok and so on, and each platform brings a different demographic.”

Of course, there will be some fans rolling their eyes at this point — assuming they got past the bit about “This Means More” — or shouting: “What have silly videos and computer games got to do with winning football matches?”

But it really is simple. The club’s wage bill has almost doubled from £166 million to £310 million in five years, and Liverpool’s amortisation costs — the best indicator of how much they are spending in the transfer market — have gone from £59 million to £112 million over the same period.

Every deal Hogan and his team can get over the line provides more money for sporting director Michael Edwards and Klopp to spend on players.

“Liverpool’s Champions League win in 2005 was vital to keeping them at the top table, just as buying top talent like Fernando Torres and Luis Suarez was important, too,” says Octagon’s Haddad.

“But what we’re seeing now is them holding on to their best players: they are not a stepping stone to somewhere else.”

So what is next?

“Our plan is to continue to leverage the club’s size and scale, as well as target growth in key markets like China, India and the United States, which in football terms, are developing markets,” says Hogan.

“The prospect of where we might get to is amazingly exciting. We have said it’s important to enjoy this moment but we know this is a very competitive world on and off the pitch. Our philosophy is not to focus on others but to concentrate on what we’re doing. And my role is to keep helping this club grow.”

Celebrate, concentrate, collaborate — it sounds like a good plan. Watch out Real, Barca, United: Liverpool are coming for you.

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Liverpool winning the league again is a huge achievement deserving of the best we can offer you here at The Athletic.

So we are publishing one new in-depth read per day from our team of top writers. And we’ve got some more treats up our sleeve after that too.

Here’s a schedule, so you don’t miss out.

WEDNESDAY: Liverpool’s 30 years of hurt. By Oliver Kay
THURSDAY: Jurgen Klopp — the fist-pumping genius who turned dreams into reality. By James Pearce and Simon Hughes
FRIDAY: The tactical innovations that transformed Liverpool. By Michael Cox
SATURDAY: Tom Werner interview: This just makes us hungrier to deliver more trophies. By James Pearce
SUNDAY: How do Liverpool ensure this is not a one-off? By Oliver Kay
MONDAY: Jordan Henderson’s journey to title-winning captain. By Simon Hughes
TUESDAY: Michael Edwards — the visionary behind Liverpool’s remarkable rise. By Daniel Taylor and Adam Crafton
WEDNESDAY: Understanding Jurgen Klopp — ‘It’s never about him’. By Raphael Honigstein
THURSDAY: The passing styles that underpin the triumph. By Tom Worville
TODAY: How the Liverpool brand rose again. By Matt Slater
SATURDAY: What now for Klopp’s squad? By James Pearce and Tom Worville

We’ve also produced a special edition of the Red Agenda podcast

And our friends at Tifo have created a brand new video explaining how FSG turned Liverpool in Premier League champions

 

[Vesper 30,091]

Why Wolves’ double act of Traore-Jimenez is up there with Barcelona and Bayern

https://theathletic.com/1919072/2020/07/14/traore-jimenez-premier-league-wolves-goal-assist-barcelona-messi-bayern/

The classic attacking partnerships used to be the “big man, little man” combinations; the big man was the classic old-school centre-forward, who was a target for long balls. The little man was the quick, nippy striker who sprinted in behind.

At Wolves, Raul Jimenez, the 6ft 3in No 9, is a good candidate for the “big man” role. Adama Traore couldn’t reasonably be described as a “little man” in many situations — if you want to tell him that to his face, that’s on you — but in this situation the tag works well. Together, they’ve created 10 goals for each other this season.

Jimenez has laid on three strikes for Traore, but the usual pattern has been Traore assisting Jimenez. That’s happened seven times this season — which, across Europe’s five major leagues, can only be bettered by Thomas Muller setting up Robert Lewandowski for Bayern Munich, and is matched by Lionel Messi assisting Luis Suarez at Barcelona. For Wolves to boast a combination comparable to those players speaks volumes about their overperformance this season, and the fine relationship developed by these two attackers.

Compared to the relationships at Bayern and Barca, Traore and Jimenez’s combination play is different. After a spell out of the side at Bayern, and some appearances on the right, Muller generally ended up playing as a No 10 behind Lewandowski, the same roles that Messi and Suarez play for Barca — they combine naturally in central positions. Traore and Jimenez’s relationship is different — although Traore has occasionally been fielded up front alongside Jimenez, as in the 2-0 defeat by Arsenal last week, he’s generally played from the right flank of a 3-4-3. The assists, therefore, have followed a very familiar pattern.

In the 2-1 win over Aston Villa in November, Traore picked up the ball inside his own half, dribbled 50 yards and then played a pull-back for Jimenez to sweep home for Wolves’ second goal. Note the Mexican absolutely pleading for the pass to be played his way.

In the 2-1 victory at Bournemouth two weeks later, Wolves devised a clever free-kick routine — which they also tried the following week at Norwich — which involved Joao Moutinho sliding the ball forward for Traore’s run, with Jimenez rushing in to tap home his ball across the six-yard box.

In the 3-2 win over Manchester City just after Christmas, Traore robbed Benjamin Mendy on the byline and played a short pass for Jimenez to tap home.

And in a victory by the same scoreline against Southampton in January, the winner came after Traore ran in behind and, with his left foot, pulled the back for Jimenez to curl home.

Since then, however, the nature of the assists have become even more consistent. In the 2-1 defeat by Liverpool in January, there was a well-weighted, dinked cross into a prime goalscoring position for Jimenez to nod inside the far post…

….and then, since the restart, Traore has provided deep crosses for Jimenez to head home at the far post against both West Ham…

…and Bournemouth.

Arguably more interesting than the nature of the assists, though, is the timing of them. Wolves have a peculiar habit of coming on strong after half-time this season; in a “first-half league table” they’d be sitting 20th in the Premier League, and in a “second-half league table” they’d be fourth.

In keeping with that record, six of Traore’s seven assists for Jimenez have come in the second half. In chronological order, they’ve come in the 31st, 51st, 61st, 72nd, 75th, 81st and 83rd minutes.

The only first-half goal was the first goal at Bournemouth — the aforementioned free-kick routine, the only goal that didn’t come from open play. Therefore, it seems fair to conclude that Traore is, naturally, most dangerous in the latter stages of matches, when he’s running at tired defenders.

But this doesn’t necessarily mean he’s best as a “super sub”. Only one of these assists, the recent deep cross against West Ham, have come after Traore came off the bench. Otherwise, each have come when he’s started; when he’s personally contributed to wearing down the opposition’s left-back before taking advantage of their tiredness during the closing stages.

While Traore has sometimes been used as a wing-back, or up front, all these assists have come when Wolves have been using Traore wide-right in a 3-4-3. Against Arsenal, the experiment with Traore up front alongside Jimenez was interesting — Nuno Espirito Santo was perhaps trying to get two players who combine so effectively playing closer together.

They nearly combined well in the opening seconds, when Jimenez dinked the ball over the defence for Traore’s run, but Arsenal goalkeeper Emiliano Martinez swept effectively and cleared the ball to safety.

But Traore, for all his pace, hasn’t proved particularly effective at timing his runs when playing up front, or bending them to stay onside. It was telling that his clearest goalscoring chance came after Nuno switched to 3-4-3, with substitute Diogo Jota coming inside off the left to combine with Jimenez, who threaded the ball through the defence for Traore, who dinked over. Here, Traore was able to start in a deeper position, and his straight-line speed over a long distance is unmatchable.

The exception to the rule came in Wolves’ 2-0 victory over Manchester City. Here, they scored two late goals in similar fashion while using the 3-5-2. This time, it was Jimenez assisting Traore. First he dribbled 50 yards and squared for Traore to convert…

…and later he slipped in Traore, who burst in behind Fernandinho and converted the clinching goal.

Jimenez’s other assist for Traore came in a 2-1 defeat by Tottenham. On this occasion, it was in the 3-4-3, and it was a long-range Traore strike rather than him being set in behind the opposition.

It’s interesting, though, that there was another similarity to the goals at City: all three of Jimenez’s assists to Traore have been prodded with the outside of his right foot.

But it’s usually been Traore setting up Jimenez, and it’s not unthinkable that they could equal a Premier League record. Two more combinations resulting in a goal, and Traore-Jimenez will become the joint-most prolific assister-goalscorer combination in Premier League history. The five combinations above them in the table, peculiarly, all happened in either 1994-95 or 1995-96.

We’ve come to take Traore’s brilliance for granted this season, but there was little sign of this partnership last season — when Traore managed just one goal and one assist, neither of these goals featuring Jimenez. In 2019-20, this is the best partnership in the Premier League, and one of the best in Europe.

It’s the big man-little man partnership, but not as we know it.

[Strike 7,474]

The Akinfenwa interview is one of the best interviews of our times.

https://twitter.com/footballdaily/status/1282776771067346954?s=20

[Milan 17,955]

I am actually getting more and more scared of Wolves. Oh come on Burnley, take this pressure off us. I really don't want to face Wolves on the last day knowing that if they win, that will be it.

[Atomiswave 6,117]

12 hours ago, Tomo said:

Southampton should have been down to 10 got away with it and got a point, so maybe the conspiracy theory's can now stop! 

Are you serious? So they got away with one after ridiculous calls after ridiculous calls wich we all can agree was utter BS and all is cool suddenly? This league is bent as fuck, footy is bent as fuck in general. Im stunned we stil have folks that outright deny this when the evidence is right in your face.

[Special Juan 28,098]

burnley will get something off Wolves.

[Tomo 21,751]

1 hour ago, Atomiswave said:

Are you serious? So they got away with one after ridiculous calls after ridiculous calls wich we all can agree was utter BS and all is cool suddenly? This league is bent as fuck, footy is bent as fuck in general. Im stunned we stil have folks that outright deny this when the evidence is right in your face.

Referee's are incompetent, every set of fans seem to have these ridiculous ideas that they're biased towards certain teams.

Remember when we had favrouble decisions go our way at home Vs United in 09/10? A season we went on to win the league by one point!

[Magic Lamps 11,692]

2 hours ago, Strike said:

The Akinfenwa interview is one of the best interviews of our times.

https://twitter.com/footballdaily/status/1282776771067346954?s=20

I never got the hype around him. I get that he is basically a bodybuilder playing football and not too shabby at that  for his disadvantageous body proportions. But he will be way out of his depth in Championship. I remember in a friendly vs us when he was completely and effortlessly Bossed by MvG. 

[Atomiswave 6,117]

1 hour ago, Tomo said:

Referee's are incompetent, every set of fans seem to have these ridiculous ideas that they're biased towards certain teams.

Remember when we had favrouble decisions go our way at home Vs United in 09/10? A season we went on to win the league by one point!

So if the refs are incompetent why are they still there after years of bollocks? Now they have VAR and they have gotten worse. No I dont buy that, there has been too many way too blatant decisions going to certain clubs. So we scored an offside goal that the linesman didnt see, thats nothing comapred to all the shit we have been through. One look at udt through the years and one look at liverpool this season is all you need really. Or how about 13-14 season where we got destroyed, or 14-15 where we couldnt buy a pen no matter what? Sorry mate but footy is bent and we witness it every game practically. I simply dont buy the incompetent mantra no more. Footy will not flow naturally unless they do this:

VAR will not reduce matchfixing without: 1) managerial reviews of decisions (as in tennis & cricket) & 2) referee & VAR on open microphone so we can hear how the decision is reached (as in rugby & cricket). Otherwise it is a scam - an attempt to validate the corruption.

[Jase 43,479]

 

[Special Juan 28,098]

JM is spot on.

[Tomo 21,751]

1 hour ago, Atomiswave said:

So if the refs are incompetent why are they still there after years of bollocks? Now they have VAR and they have gotten worse. No I dont buy that, there has been too many way too blatant decisions going to certain clubs. So we scored an offside goal that the linesman didnt see, thats nothing comapred to all the shit we have been through. One look at udt through the years and one look at liverpool this season is all you need really. Or how about 13-14 season where we got destroyed, or 14-15 where we couldnt buy a pen no matter what? Sorry mate but footy is bent and we witness it every game practically. I simply dont buy the incompetent mantra no more. Footy will not flow naturally unless they do this:

VAR will not reduce matchfixing without: 1) managerial reviews of decisions (as in tennis & cricket) & 2) referee & VAR on open microphone so we can hear how the decision is reached (as in rugby & cricket). Otherwise it is a scam - an attempt to validate the corruption.

Or what about 11-12 when Ashley Cole handballed at the Camp Nou? Decisions that are given most of the time and one we got in our favour in one of the previous round against Napoli, or like I said in 09/10 when debatable decisions Vs United at SB? (Terry avoiding a red and a penalty concession then going to score the winner from a free kick that shouldn't have been awarded) what about the Cardiff game last season? What about the City game in Conte's title season where Luiz avoided a blatant red for hacking down Aguero who was clean through? We went onto win that match which was seen by many as the major momentum changer in our favour. You mention 13-14, I'm guessing you're referring to the Sunderland game? yeah that was a shit decision but so was the awarded penalty that saved us from losing at home to WBA six months earlier, or the penalty we dodged at The Emirates near Christmas time.

I don't argue the refs on the whole are pretty shit but that's just it, shit, this isn't some elaborate conspiracy to help United and if it is, they've done a pretty bad job of it the last few years.

[Atomiswave 6,117]

18 minutes ago, Tomo said:

Or what about 11-12 when Ashley Cole handballed at the Camp Nou? Decisions that are given most of the time and one we got in our favour in one of the previous round against Napoli, or like I said in 09/10 when debatable decisions Vs United at SB? (Terry avoiding a red and a penalty concession then going to score the winner from a free kick that shouldn't have been awarded) what about the Cardiff game last season? What about the City game in Conte's title season where Luiz avoided a blatant red for hacking down Aguero who was clean through? We went onto win that match which was seen by many as the major momentum changer in our favour. You mention 13-14, I'm guessing you're referring to the Sunderland game? yeah that was a shit decision but so was the awarded penalty that saved us from losing at home to WBA six months earlier, or the penalty we dodged at The Emirates near Christmas time.

I don't argue the refs on the whole are pretty shit but that's just it, shit, this isn't some elaborate conspiracy to help United and if it is, they've done a pretty bad job of it the last few years.

For everyone you mention I can mention an army of them. So you only mention the sunderland game that season? Did you see what they they did in AV? Have you seen the shit scudomor said, its blatant. I just dont buy that they shit....to you it may look like they are just shit, to me the game is rigged and certain outcome are helped by them. Im willing to bet my life the game is rigged in epl, thats how obvious I see it....you as a footy fan please explain how fernandes got that pen the other day, a logical one. We will just have to agree to disagree no problem, cheers.

[Tomo 21,751]

16 minutes ago, Atomiswave said:

you as a footy fan please explain how fernandes got that pen the other day, a logical one. 

I don't know, just like I don't know how the hell Romeu escaped a red card last night.

[Atomiswave 6,117]

26 minutes ago, Tomo said:

I don't know, just like I don't know how the hell Romeu escaped a red card last night.

That could have gone either way, yes it looked bad in slowmo but it wasnt a stonewall red for me, though we have seen them given. That fernandes pen though, that was some other worldy shit right there.....we got to question how so called pro's with expensive new toys came to the conclusion that was a pen. Anyway good luck to us all for tonights game