Ramires

[dee25 1,044]

Dominating possession' has a different meaning from other descriptions you could have used so don't get all uppity (see, I've chosen the word uppity there very deliberately)

Uppity? See that's very ironic because you nitpicking my choice of words is actually the very definition of uppity. Dominating vs having more possession - the difference is a matter of semantics. Either way both infers a state of control of the ball - although to varying degrees. So let's not turn this into some sort of linguistic battle, first of all, I guarantee you I'll win and secondly, it'll do nothing but derail the thread.

And no, it doesn't speak for itself. Statistics are there to be interpreted, not to speak for themselves. They can't....they're just numbers.

4 percent separates us and City while 6 percent separates us from Newcastle and West Brom. So here's my interpretation, our tactics aren't focused on possession. Is that interpretive enough for you? Or would you prefer me to draw up a graph? Or maybe a 10 pg paper quantifying the 4 percent difference in possession between us and City? (btw, that's uppity)

Again, that's not true. We break through very deliberate passing movements that rely on quick exchanges between players, like last night's goal.

How many times have our counterattacks involved an exchange of passes like that one? That goal is very different from the goals/chances we normally create on the break. For one thing, It's very rare that our counterattack wouldn't be lead by either Willian or Hazard and we don't normally see Azpi bomb forward like that to tee up the striker. Really you can argue from now until your blue in the face. Fact is, Mourinho typically values workhorses like Ramires over the passing type players. He's very much central to Mourinho's tactics whether you and I like it.

Anyway, this has been fun but I probably should stop procrastinating and face this evil bastard paper that I've been putting off.

Oh and before you break out the semantic siren, I don't actually mean the paper itself is evil........

[Styles 9,790]

I think styles is completely right – it might not be something people want to accept but he's actually right.

In games against most of the top teams, we normally have less possession than them. I’m not just talking about Arsenal and City, but also Spurs, Everton and Utd. Every single one of those teams dominated possession in the matches we played against them and I'm pretty sure that if you compare our overall possession stats with every single one of those teams, ours would be the lowest.

That’s the way Mourinho sets up the team and basically the reason why players like Mata and Kdb weren't able to perform to high productivity. Mourinho’s tactics centers primarily on conceding possession and counterattacking. Whether people like it or not, Ramires is pivotal to that system. He’s not going anywhere any time soon.

People do not want to criticise the tactics but will criticise the players the manager deems absolutely crucial to said tactics. The average football supporter performs some unbelievable mental gymnastics that politicians would be proud of.

[The only place to be 11,313]

The tactics at the moment vary on the opposition. Against the top teams we do have less possession because Mourinho's first thought is always not to lose those matches. That means we do set up on the counter and for those matches the best option is often Ramires, but not always in the pivot. There his physical attributes are utilised in a hybrid winger/midfielder role where he'll tuck in more when we defend and play like a traditional winger when we attack.

But on the whole we do have more possession than our opponents. It's unlikely we're going to move to a Barca-type system because at the moment we really only have one top midfielder (Matic). Hopefully we improve on this in the future either by promoting from within or going into the market but at the moment I don't think we can really hope to control the possession against top teams consistently with someone as limited as Ramires.

Also, you should look beyond those stats and examine the games we've actually played. The games away to Spurs and Arsenal were both away from home and we've only had Matic's presence in midfield for a month so the vast majority of matches were without him. Both of those factors will have a bearing on the statistics.

[dee25 1,044]

People do not want to criticise the tactics but will criticise the players the manager deems absolutely crucial to said tactics. The average football supporter performs some unbelievable mental gymnastics that politicians would be proud of.

Exactly. Really, who are we trying kid here? Ramires is central to Mourinho's tactics. We might not like it, but criticize the tactics not the players.

[The only place to be 11,313]

Exactly. Really, who are we trying kid here? Ramires is central to Mourinho's tactics. We might not like it, but criticize the tactics not the players.

I know you love your stats so here's a question for you. Since Matic was first given his full debut against Stoke, how many times has Ramires played in central midfield/the pivot?

Echo, echo, echo, echo.....

The answer is of the 8 games we've played since Matic was signed, Ramires has played in the pivot....

THREE times (and one of those was against Galatasaray where Matic was cup-tied). That also includes the West Ham game where Ramires (Mr. central to Mourinho's tactics) was moved to the wing to accommodate Lampard and Matic after 63 minutes, and then into a sorta full-back role.

In the other five games Matic has played in the middle with Lampard or Luiz, with Ramires either on the bench or on the wing.

Edited February 28, 2014 by The only place to be

[The Chels 2,502]

So let's not turn this into some sort of linguistic battle, first of all, I guarantee you I'll win

Well this is awkward...

http://www.bristol.ac.uk/arts/exercises/grammar/grammar_tutorial/page_07.htm

[Barbara 15,149]

Statistically speaking is general consensus that up to 2% differences are considered technically equal, a draw. But that's me being technical about stats

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy Note 4G using Tapatalk

[The_Flash 1,144]

That was such a shame when he got elbowed and blood everywhere was awful

[Reddish-Blue 2,489]

I know you love your stats so here's a question for you. Since Matic was first given his full debut against Stoke, how many times has Ramires played in central midfield/the pivot?

Echo, echo, echo, echo.....

The answer is of the 8 games we've played since Matic was signed, Ramires has played in the pivot....

THREE times (and one of those was against Galatasaray where Matic was cup-tied). That also includes the West Ham game where Ramires (Mr. central to Mourinho's tactics) was moved to the wing to accommodate Lampard and Matic after 63 minutes, and then into a sorta full-back role.

In the other five games Matic has played in the middle with Lampard or Luiz, with Ramires either on the bench or on the wing.

I still think we should have made a bid on Yohan Cabaye. Experienced international midfielder, performed consistently in the EPL, knows how to make accurate short & long passes....and he can hit a sweet long shot..

PSG got a bargain at 19 million euros.

I trust Mourinho...but Lamps isn't getting any younger and Ramires isn't the answer for the pivot. Hopefully we strengthen the midfield at the end of this season

[Sovieticus 743]

I still think we should have made a bid on Yohan Cabaye. Experienced international midfielder, performed consistently in the EPL, knows how to make accurate short & long passes....and he can hit a sweet long shot..

PSG got a bargain at 19 million euros.

I trust Mourinho...but Lamps isn't getting any younger and Ramires isn't the answer for the pivot. Hopefully we strengthen the midfield at the end of this season

Why not Matuidi?

[The Skipper 20,609]

Why not Matuidi?

We've already got a Matuidi in Ramires.

[Barbara 15,149]

I disagree that Ramires is a central player in Mourinho's tactics. That's Oscar while Eden is the star.

The thing is Ramires is the only player we have with such a profile to play in the midfield and he's definitely a Mourinho kind of player. So he offers Mourinho some versatility, but here's hoping that one between Salah or André really make it here, so we don't depend so much on Ramires' pace and never see him again in the RW. If in the pivot I rate him a 6.5, 7 at most, in the wing I don't rate him at all, but I'd go with a 5 if I had to really do it. I'd really love for Mourinho to sign a better player for the position, but he just won't. So here's waiting that maybe we move to a 4-3-3 in the future and either Oscar or Willian drop to the midfield.

I'm not ungrateful and I'm not disregarding everything he's done for us - although agree with whoever said he's been living off of a goal against Barcelona and is overrated for the exact same reason. But Chelsea three years ago and up to this season had different goals than the team Mourinho is going to get together. The stakes will rise and that's the problem keeping Ramires imo. With stakes higher than the ones we have, he simply doesn't cut. He barely does as it is. It's just our pivot has been so incredibly poor the last few years, that Ramires was more important than he should, but that's because the bar was just too low.

[MrExcalibur100 7,124]

We've already got a Matuidi in Ramires.

The only thing they have in common is that they're black. Matuidi can actually pass a ball and he is very composed in the final third.

[MrExcalibur100 7,124]

I disagree that Ramires is a central player in Mourinho's tactics. That's Oscar while Eden is the star.

The thing is Ramires is the only player we have with such a profile to play in the midfield and he's definitely a Mourinho kind of player. So he offers Mourinho some versatility, but here's hoping that one between Salah or André really make it here, so we don't depend so much on Ramires' pace and never see him again in the RW. If in the pivot I rate him a 6.5, 7 at most, in the wing I don't rate him at all, but I'd go with a 5 if I had to really do it. I'd really love for Mourinho to sign a better player for the position, but he just won't. So here's waiting that maybe we move to a 4-3-3 in the future and either Oscar or Willian drop to the midfield.

I'm not ungrateful and I'm not disregarding everything he's done for us - although agree with whoever said he's been living off of a goal against Barcelona and is overrated for the exact same reason. But Chelsea three years ago and up to this season had different goals than the team Mourinho is going to get together. The stakes will rise and that's the problem keeping Ramires imo. With stakes higher than the ones we have, he simply doesn't cut. He barely does as it is. It's just our pivot has been so incredibly poor the last few years, that Ramires was more important than he should, but that's because the bar was just too low.

I think Jose knows what he wants. People say he's a Mourinho type of player, but Mourinho's Madrid team didn't have a Ramires. Mourinho has proven that he can win with different types of players. If he doesn't have a Drogba, he can work with a Higuain. If he doesn't have a Makalele, he can work with a Xabi Alonso. He has his systems and ideas, but you don't win what he has won by buying clones.

Don't forget about van Ginkel. The kid was our best player in pre-season. I was surprised by how quick and strong he was, and how many interceptions he was making, how many plays he broke up. His passing range is also impressive, and he scores goals too (ok, he didn't show that in pre-season, but his goal-scoring record is impressive). He is that 8 we were talking about the other day. I know Mourinho rates him highly, as evidenced by the way he talks about him. I have very high hopes for Marco and his style of play supplements Matic's perfectly. The kid is a "crack". Either that or splash the cash on a world-class CM, but that cash needs to be spent on a CF.

I didn't like the way we played against Galatasaray. I didn't like it because that's not how big teams play against teams like that. It angered me far more than the City FA cup result and I don't believe for a second that Jose sent us out to play that way for 90 mins. We just didn't have the quality in the midfield to retain possession and have any sort of tempo. Iman (who?) and a washed up Melo dominated us. Only God knows what will happen against {Modric/Xabi/Di Maria} or {Fabregas, Iniesta, Busquets} or {Kroos, Thiago, Lahm/Martinez}. Cech probably also didn't trust that pivot, because he kept on thumping it, and thumping it to oblivion.

Oscar as a CM, I don't like the idea, tbh. Oscar is a 10 and Mourinho has already declared him to be HIS 10. He also said 4-2-3-1 is his favourite formation, and that formation suits a high pressing game the best. It's difficult to press the opposition high up the pitch with a 4-3-3. Plus see what happened to Anderson at Man United when Ferguson changed him from an AM to a CM. Oscar's playmaking will develop, I'm confident about that. He just struggles to create his own space, but has no problems playing with space. He looks so much better when he has space on the wing. But these things come with experience. It's not easy to be a number 10 in this league because those are the players that suffer most from teams that park the bus/plane.

[The Skipper 20,609]

The only thing they have in common is that they're black. Matuidi can actually pass a ball and he is very composed in the final third.

Matuidi is more composed on the ball but you're telling me they both aren't box to box, ball winning midfielders first and foremost?