Chelsea 5-0 West Ham

[YorkshireBlue 2,877]

9 hours ago, King Kante said:

If you do a season average score comparison between Gallagher and Caicedo, Gallagher has the higher score and he is meant to be so sh*t that most of the forum wanted him sold in the summer at any cost. This is also before considering Gallagher has only just recently been put in his natural position whereas Caicedo has played in his all season. 

I think your confusing "most of the Forum" with our 3 or 4 residents with Thier 3 or 4 word posts that are just hear to gaslight. 

[King Kante 1,343]

2 hours ago, YorkshireBlue said:

I think your confusing "most of the Forum" with our 3 or 4 residents with Thier 3 or 4 word posts that are just hear to gaslight. 

I would have said it was more than that from recollection but point noted equally.

[nyikolajevics 2,463]

12 hours ago, MoroccanBlue said:

Lmao never change TalkChelsea never change. You’d think Caicedo was fucking Bakayoko with the way some members speak about him. 😂

 

Come on, this is not only TC, football fans are often like this. During/after games, easy to make statements which can are over to top or turn out to be laughing stock later. Even many respected managers made comments which are completely ridiculous retrospectively.

 

13 hours ago, King Kante said:

Disas(ter)i category yet where I am saying that he shouldn't be anywhere near the first XI ever

Just wanted to appriciate the pun, can you make one with Badiashile aswell?

[Reddish-Blue 2,242]

11 hours ago, robsblubot said:

the deterrent as you call it (aka ball-winning mid), does not even exist in the team that wins the league every year.

We won the league with Obi Mikel in midfield back in the day and I don't recall him making too many forward runs. 

I agree with the point but our first goal should be trying to be competitive and becoming a top 4 side again before worrying about 'winning' the league. 

11 hours ago, King Kante said:

If you do a season average score comparison between Gallagher and Caicedo, Gallagher has the higher score and he is meant to be so sh*t that most of the forum wanted him sold in the summer at any cost

Gallagher's scores will likely be higher as he has goals/assists to his name.  I've seen quite a few of those statistical websites and they tend to skew in favor of midfielders that score the odd goal and get the odd assist in games....like let's say the midfielder has a generally poor game, losing the ball quite a bit, losing his duels/tackles etc but he pops up with a goal/assist and suddenly that 6.0 performance becomes 7.2 or higher. 

[MoroccanBlue 5,230]

14 hours ago, King Kante said:

1) Not true, that isn't what people are saying. Caicedo is a functional player, just not one with the required technical skills to be an elite player or a player to drag his team through games when the chips are down. 

2) Hyperbole. West Ham lined up in a 4231 formation. Please post a video/gif of where he dribbled past five WH players. Even fecking Hazard only went past three we he scored that beautiful goal against them. 

3) Evidence please. 

 You were just shown a video demonstrating Caicedo's ability with the ball and you disregarded it saying "NOPE. WON"T CHANGE MY MIND I SEE HIM EVERY WEEK."  Why should anyone waste their time convincing you? 😂

 

For arguments sake, last 3 matches alone where he provided influence in both the attacking and defensive end. 

VS Villa when we needed to get back into the game. 

@0:20 splits midfield for Palmer to turn and play Jackson

@0:23 Lob to find Jackson who scores but ruled offsides marginally.

@0:56 Expected Threat

@1:17 Dink to Jackson

@1:30 split through ball to Madueke

VS Spurs were he was instructed to dominate the midfield. Lost track of how many tackles he won. 

@1:55 drops the shoulder and sends Bentancur back to Uruguay. 

 

VS West Ham

 

 

14 hours ago, robsblubot said:

"Very good stats." that's not the discussion here. 🙂 
I'm pointing out the skill side of his game, esp in attack, which was the *specific* point I was replying to.

Yes we need our DM to be an expansive goal scoring midfielder/assist machine for us to be a title winning side. 

Someone tell Makalele, Matic, Mikel, and Kante to return their Premier League winners medals because they weren't goal scorers/pass masters.  Just wished we only improved on them...

Edited May 6 by MoroccanBlue

[robsblubot 3,276]

2 hours ago, MoroccanBlue said:

 You were just shown a video demonstrating Caicedo's ability with the ball and you disregarded it saying "NOPE. WON"T CHANGE MY MIND I SEE HIM EVERY WEEK."  Why should anyone waste their time convincing you? 😂

 

For arguments sake, last 3 matches alone where he provided influence in both the attacking and defensive end. 

VS Villa when we needed to get back into the game. 

@0:20 splits midfield for Palmer to turn and play Jackson

@0:23 Lob to find Jackson who scores but ruled offsides marginally.

@0:56 Expected Threat

@1:17 Dink to Jackson

@1:30 split through ball to Madueke

VS Spurs were he was instructed to dominate the midfield. Lost track of how many tackles he won. 

@1:55 drops the shoulder and sends Bentancur back to Uruguay. 

 

VS West Ham

 

 

Yes we need our DM to be an expansive goal scoring midfielder/assist machine for us to be a title winning side. 

Someone tell Makalele, Matic, Mikel, and Kante to return their Premier League winners medals because they weren't goal scorers/pass masters.  Just wished we only improved on them...

Wow you went back a few years there buddy. Claiming football remains the same? 

where do you see makalele player lifting silverware? Because when I watch the top teams in the world their DMs are indeed exactly the player you mock above. 😆

isn’t Bellingham exactly what you describe? Isn’t Rodri more of what you describe? Isn’t Rice that also? His attacking numbers show exactly that.

Why so quick to dismiss the possibility that the requirement to win the league again is indeed going for the positional play? Yes I wonder about it.

Edited May 6 by robsblubot

[robsblubot 3,276]

5 hours ago, Reddish-Blue said:

We won the league with Obi Mikel in midfield back in the day and I don't recall him making too many forward runs. 

I agree with the point but our first goal should be trying to be competitive and becoming a top 4 side again before worrying about 'winning' the league. 

I agree with the notion were are nowhere near that, so need to focus on rebuilding. There is no choice.

Mikel Obi is an interesting example tho: yes, his attacking numbers were close to zero, but his defense numbers weren't that great either. He rarely went to the ground to tackle, and was more like a dedicated short-range passer... a far more limited version of Kovacic (without the dribbling). To this day I'm not sure what he actually did on the pitch eh. I think he wasn't a sure started either -- more like a Rotation/often used off the bench player in our PL wins (he had left before last win with Conte in 16-17).

I think Matic and even David Luiz in midfield were closer to a ball-winning mids tbh.

Edited May 6 by robsblubot

[MoroccanBlue 5,230]

2 hours ago, robsblubot said:

Wow you went back a few years there buddy. Claiming football remains the same? 

where do you see makalele player lifting silverware? Because when I watch the top teams in the world their DMs are indeed exactly the player you mock above. 😆

isn’t Bellingham exactly what you describe? Isn’t Rodri more of what you describe? Isn’t Rice that also? His attacking numbers show exactly that.

Why so quick to dismiss the possibility that the requirement to win the league again is indeed going for the positional play? Yes I wonder about it.

I literally saw Stanislav Lobotka lifting the Serie A trophy for Napoli with his whopping 1 goal and 1 assist from DM. Or does that not count now? 

 

Also, do you mean the same Declan Rice who has been utilized as a box to box now that Jorginho and Partey are the DMs? Arsenal are taking City to the final game with Jorginho and Partey in the team. 

Jorginho - 0 goals/2 assists

Partey - 0 goals/0 assists. 

If they win the league, does that not count? 

 

Bloody hell, fucking Fabinho when Liverpool won the league only had 2 goals and 3 assists. 

[robsblubot 3,276]

29 minutes ago, MoroccanBlue said:

I literally saw Stanislav Lobotka lifting the Serie A trophy for Napoli with his whopping 1 goal and 1 assist from DM. Or does that not count now? 

 

Also, do you mean the same Declan Rice who has been utilized as a box to box now that Jorginho and Partey are the DMs? Arsenal are taking City to the final game with Jorginho and Partey in the team. 

Jorginho - 0 goals/2 assists

Partey - 0 goals/0 assists. 

If they win the league, does that not count? 

 

Bloody hell, fucking Fabinho when Liverpool won the league only had 2 goals and 3 assists. 

I'm not sure Italy counts these days, no. They haven't even been able to quality for the WC ffs.
Yes, I'm referring to the absence of such role (ball-winning dedicated mid) in the top clubs in modern football. Declan Rice moved up is just mirroring what Rodri does for City. I find that intriguing, but I don't claim to know the answer. It's something I consider.

They tried to get rid of Partey who refused to leave last minute of the window. Rotation/backup player.

Jorginho and Caicedo have absolutely nothing in common--and he's rotation/backup.

Arenal is trying to mirror City and they are unsuccessful still. Maybe because they don't quite have the right players?

Edited May 6 by robsblubot

[King Kante 1,343]

7 hours ago, MoroccanBlue said:

 You were just shown a video demonstrating Caicedo's ability with the ball and you disregarded it saying "NOPE. WON"T CHANGE MY MIND I SEE HIM EVERY WEEK."  Why should anyone waste their time convincing you? 😂

 

For arguments sake, last 3 matches alone where he provided influence in both the attacking and defensive end. 

VS Villa when we needed to get back into the game. 

@0:20 splits midfield for Palmer to turn and play Jackson

@0:23 Lob to find Jackson who scores but ruled offsides marginally.

@0:56 Expected Threat

@1:17 Dink to Jackson

@1:30 split through ball to Madueke

VS Spurs were he was instructed to dominate the midfield. Lost track of how many tackles he won. 

@1:55 drops the shoulder and sends Bentancur back to Uruguay. 

 

VS West Ham

 

 

Yes we need our DM to be an expansive goal scoring midfielder/assist machine for us to be a title winning side. 

Someone tell Makalele, Matic, Mikel, and Kante to return their Premier League winners medals because they weren't goal scorers/pass masters.  Just wished we only improved on them...

I literally do not know what you're trying to prove with the highlights you've provided. They pretty much sum up what I am saying. Good to excellent ball winner, who generally passes sideways as he lacks incisive passing/an ability to break lines.

The best individual moments are the assist against WH were the CB's are about 20m apart - seriously most players at League Two level can play-in a team mate with such a gap - and the assist to Jackson where the Villa defence have sat up hoping he hits the pass so they can step up on Jackson as he is already on the borderline of being off side. 

Apart from that, the balls forward/on the diagonal lack zip, which allows the opposition to readjust/the player recieving the ball has to hold position/check to recieve the ball.

Then there is the fact what you've only provided highlights of his best moments in games sliced together, not much context or any balancing of things that he did that weren't so great. This is exactly the kind of thing that makes people on social media believe players are great as they only see the highlights. 

So, yeah, not entirely reflective of his overall game - although to be fair I have actually said he has improved recently and that he just isn't technical enough to be a top/elite player and is simply an good to excellent ball winner. I will also give him credit with his positional play as that has genuinely improved recently as before Feb he was absolutely all over the place. 

Btw, still waiting for you to provide that evidence of him going past five WH players. That surely is highlight worthy. 

Edited May 6 by King Kante

[King Kante 1,343]

10 hours ago, nyikolajevics said:

Come on, this is not only TC, football fans are often like this. During/after games, easy to make statements which can are over to top or turn out to be laughing stock later. Even many respected managers made comments which are completely ridiculous retrospectively.

 

Just wanted to appriciate the pun, can you make one with Badiashile aswell?

I actually think Badiashile can become a good player. I think this season, he has been unfortunate in that he had an awful injury and then when he came back he had to play alongside Disaster. For sure, he has to start to read the game better but I always say CB's mature much later than every other position and that could still come with him.

I am not saying he will become an elite CB however, but I can him being a usable one or in an ideal situation one that becomes more than usable if everything goes right. He isn't anywhere near the Disaster category - imo - where he is actually a detriment to the team when he is on the pitch. 

[NikkiCFC 7,655]

Why would Caicedo even have to do anything in final third? I mean we had Kante. Was Kante great passer? Many other examples... if we have well balanced team and everyone is doing their job position wise that would still be fine even he is on zero goals and assists. 

[King Kante 1,343]

5 minutes ago, NikkiCFC said:

Why would Caicedo even have to do anything in final third? I mean we had Kante. Was Kante great passer? Many other examples... if we have well balanced team and everyone is doing their job position wise that would still be fine even he is on zero goals and assists. 

Kante could break lines with his running and his passing was underrated, even if it wasn't great.

Another issue is that Kante was a very 'clean' tackler and never really went to ground to win the ball. Caicedo on the other hand tackles in a clumsy way - in which he ends up giving away silly fouls/leaving 'one' on a player too often and goes to ground too often - however to be fair to him he has actually got better with not having to go to ground to win the ball back - which is actually to do with positional play more than anything else. 

[robsblubot 3,276]

1 hour ago, NikkiCFC said:

Why would Caicedo even have to do anything in final third? I mean we had Kante. Was Kante great passer? Many other examples... if we have well balanced team and everyone is doing their job position wise that would still be fine even he is on zero goals and assists. 

Is that what you see at City? do you see specialists doing their own thing, or very rounded players in all areas joining the attack at different times?

Kante was unplayable in that CL run, but did that team win the league? Was it even close to winning the PL? City's system of total football has been proven very effective in the PL--less so in single-elimination games. The team closest to them right now uses the same system.

[MoroccanBlue 5,230]

15 hours ago, King Kante said:

I literally do not know what you're trying to prove with the highlights you've provided. They pretty much sum up what I am saying. Good to excellent ball winner, who generally passes sideways as he lacks incisive passing/an ability to break lines.

The best individual moments are the assist against WH were the CB's are about 20m apart - seriously most players at League Two level can play-in a team mate with such a gap - and the assist to Jackson where the Villa defence have sat up hoping he hits the pass so they can step up on Jackson as he is already on the borderline of being off side. 

Apart from that, the balls forward/on the diagonal lack zip, which allows the opposition to readjust/the player recieving the ball has to hold position/check to recieve the ball.

Then there is the fact what you've only provided highlights of his best moments in games sliced together, not much context or any balancing of things that he did that weren't so great. This is exactly the kind of thing that makes people on social media believe players are great as they only see the highlights. 

So, yeah, not entirely reflective of his overall game - although to be fair I have actually said he has improved recently and that he just isn't technical enough to be a top/elite player and is simply an good to excellent ball winner. I will also give him credit with his positional play as that has genuinely improved recently as before Feb he was absolutely all over the place. 

Btw, still waiting for you to provide that evidence of him going past five WH players. That surely is highlight worthy. 

I'm trying to prove that your logic has no middle ground. Caicedo isn't Rodri or Kroos. Doesn't mean he's average technically and can't influence games. Your definition of 'dragging a team when the chips are down' is also incredibly flawed as I've showed you 2 matches alone where Caicedo's balancing influence in midfield had neither West Ham or Spurs at any point control the match. Or do we need our DM to be scoring screamers like Essien to fit your definition? I just showed you nearly 5 clips from 3 matches alone of his passing ability to refute your claim all he does is pass sideways and you have the gull to downplay each and every one just to prove you were right.  Much like @robsblubot's absurdity in now downplaying Serie A when proven wrong. (Even though Italy now has a higher coefficient than England) It's pathetic and your agenda shows. 

I'm also not going to let you rewrite history as Kante was an incredibly frustrating player in the final third and with the final pass. No one can play Caicedo's role without good technical ability given how he's utilised in the build up. Kante may have been a tidy dribbler, but the last time he was playing in Caicedo's role, 80% of this fanbase wanted him sold under Lampard. He couldn't build out of a press without either losing the ball or dribbling and creating gaps in front of the defence. 

But yeah lets continue with the selective attention of my post about Caicedo dribbling past West Ham's midfield. Reckon I could actually show you and you'd still find a way to down play it. 

 

 

 

 

[robsblubot 3,276]

3 hours ago, MoroccanBlue said:

I'm trying to prove that your logic has no middle ground. Caicedo isn't Rodri or Kroos. Doesn't mean he's average technically and can't influence games. Your definition of 'dragging a team when the chips are down' is also incredibly flawed as I've showed you 2 matches alone where Caicedo's balancing influence in midfield had neither West Ham or Spurs at any point control the match. Or do we need our DM to be scoring screamers like Essien to fit your definition? I just showed you nearly 5 clips from 3 matches alone of his passing ability to refute your claim all he does is pass sideways and you have the gull to downplay each and every one just to prove you were right.  Much like @robsblubot's absurdity in now downplaying Serie A when proven wrong. (Even though Italy now has a higher coefficient than England) It's pathetic and your agenda shows. 

I'm also not going to let you rewrite history as Kante was an incredibly frustrating player in the final third and with the final pass. No one can play Caicedo's role without good technical ability given how he's utilised in the build up. Kante may have been a tidy dribbler, but the last time he was playing in Caicedo's role, 80% of this fanbase wanted him sold under Lampard. He couldn't build out of a press without either losing the ball or dribbling and creating gaps in front of the defence. 

But yeah lets continue with the selective attention of my post about Caicedo dribbling past West Ham's midfield. Reckon I could actually show you and you'd still find a way to down play it. 

 

 

 

 

OK, for the sake of argument, I'll concur that Serie A and PL are at the same level; I think CL alone proves otherwise, but I digress.
So what? Fact remains that the dominant team in the PL plays in a particular way, which our current crop of players aren't really suited for. Now, you may think that's a detail, and that it may not be true 2-3 years from now, which is a possibility, but I am concerned that we may be going the wrong way.

Edited May 7 by robsblubot

[King Kante 1,343]

21 hours ago, MoroccanBlue said:

I'm trying to prove that your logic has no middle ground. Caicedo isn't Rodri or Kroos. Doesn't mean he's average technically and can't influence games. Your definition of 'dragging a team when the chips are down' is also incredibly flawed as I've showed you 2 matches alone where Caicedo's balancing influence in midfield had neither West Ham or Spurs at any point control the match. Or do we need our DM to be scoring screamers like Essien to fit your definition? I just showed you nearly 5 clips from 3 matches alone of his passing ability to refute your claim all he does is pass sideways and you have the gull to downplay each and every one just to prove you were right.  Much like @robsblubot's absurdity in now downplaying Serie A when proven wrong. (Even though Italy now has a higher coefficient than England) It's pathetic and your agenda shows. 

I'm also not going to let you rewrite history as Kante was an incredibly frustrating player in the final third and with the final pass. No one can play Caicedo's role without good technical ability given how he's utilised in the build up. Kante may have been a tidy dribbler, but the last time he was playing in Caicedo's role, 80% of this fanbase wanted him sold under Lampard. He couldn't build out of a press without either losing the ball or dribbling and creating gaps in front of the defence. 

But yeah lets continue with the selective attention of my post about Caicedo dribbling past West Ham's midfield. Reckon I could actually show you and you'd still find a way to down play it. 

 

 

 

 

Good post and whilst I still think what I said is correct - that what you provided didn't strike me as the type of play I want to see from a player in the pivot/DM in terms of passing/proved what I was complaining about - I equally get I may be missing something.

Tbh, I think the proof will be in the pudding over the next 18 months once we get James and Lavia fit. Imo, there is a good chance one of those players replace/disloge him from starting every game next season - if they can stay fit (James getting moved there owing to Gusto's development.)

Additionally, I think once we get the squad fit (hoping this will actually happen at some point) Caicedo will end up the player we deploy in games where we will have less of the ball and Lavia/James will play when we have more of the ball. 

[Thor 2,189]

I can tell the type of people in this thread who complain about food being far too hot because they expect perfect temperature straight out of the oven. 
 

Won’t let any young players settle or find themselves. 
 

“We need to be winning championships now - this is Chelsea - no time for anything”

 

Honestly - shut up. Lol