Chelsea Transfers

[Vesper 28,795]

1 minute ago, Superblue said:

Jesus Christ, I've only just jumped on here after last night and had to trawl through half a dozen pages of rambling and moaning.

The Benfica side is saying we offered one thing and now something else.

The Chelsea side (Matt Law today, but particularly David Ornstein all along) is saying that the figures being put out there were never offered and we're sticking to our own valuations of the player.

You clearly believe the Benfica side, probably because you're pissed off that the potential transfer has collapsed.

But the facts are none of us were there, so it's all just assumption at present and when two sides of a story are wildly different the truth is usually something in the middle. 

Whilst I'd love us to buy Enzo, I also don't want us being mugged off in the market and paying over players valuations. We did enough of that in the summer, the club needs to at times make a stand and ensure it's being run financially sound moving forward. Whether we like it or not, THAT is more important for the long term future than any player potentially being bought or not.

they had discussions over payments based off the €120m (£105m) release clause, or perhaps a little added to compensate (€127-130m or so)

but then, when we did make an official offer, it was for €85m (£74m)

there is no way to spin that in any way that doesn't make us look like arrogant and untrustworthy cunts

we embarrassed ourselves by making an offer €35m under what was told to us for the minimum (i.e. the RC) sale price

 

 

[TheHulk 1,855]

13 minutes ago, Vesper said:

they had discussions over payments based off the €120m (£105m) release clause, or perhaps a little added to compensate (€127-130m or so)

but then, when we did make an official offer, it was for €85m (£74m)

there is no way to spin that in any way that doesn't make us look like arrogant and untrustworthy cunts

we embarrassed ourselves by making an offer €35m under what was told to us for the minimum (i.e. the RC) sale price

 

 

So many people are now like I'm happy we didn't overpay, happy we learnt from summer! when in reality Boehly was gonna discuss the 120M in installment until he saw Enzo was forcing a move and missing training which made smug American think he can lower the price. Of course it back fired and now they pretend it was all "We won't be held to ransom!" bullshit gimmick. 

We will overpay for that manwhore from Shakhtar and everyone will come and say I think paying 20M over Arsenal was the right decision, the guy has world class potential, etc, etc

Edited January 5, 2023 by TheHulk

[Vesper 28,795]

7 minutes ago, TheHulk said:

So many people are now like I'm happy we didn't overpay, happy we learnt from summer! when in reality Boehly was gonna discuss the 120M in installment until he saw Enzo was forcing a move and missing training which made smug American think he can lower the price. Of course it back fired and now they pretend it was all "We won't be held to ransom!" bullshit gimmick. 

We will overpay for that manwhore from Shakhtar and everyone will come and say I think paying 20M over Arsenal was the right decision, the guy has world class potential, etc, etc

I cannot believe we are becoming even worse at transfers AND contracts than we were the last few years of Roman and Marina regime, but here we are (other than the U21 buys)

FUCK

Edited January 5, 2023 by Vesper

[OhForAGreavsie 5,892]

1 hour ago, Superblue said:

Jesus Christ, I've only just jumped on here after last night and had to trawl through half a dozen pages of rambling and moaning.

The Benfica side is saying we offered one thing and now something else.

The Chelsea side (Matt Law today, but particularly David Ornstein all along) is saying that the figures being put out there were never offered and we're sticking to our own valuations of the player.

You clearly believe the Benfica side, probably because you're pissed off that the potential transfer has collapsed.

But the facts are none of us were there, so it's all just assumption at present and when two sides of a story are wildly different the truth is usually something in the middle. 

Whilst I'd love us to buy Enzo, I also don't want us being mugged off in the market and paying over players valuations. We did enough of that in the summer, the club needs to at times make a stand and ensure it's being run financially sound moving forward. Whether we like it or not, THAT is more important for the long term future than any player potentially being bought or not.

👏

Two things especially make me sit up and take notice of the reactions I am reading: -

1) Reactions which condemn 'the board' despite accepting that a clear picture of what is going on can't be pieced together. They seem to be saying we don't really know what's happening but we know Chelsea are wrong.

2) Continuation of demands that, when selling, Chelsea accept whatever offers are made and that, when buying, Chelsea should just 'pay the asking price'. 

[Vesper 28,795]

Is Chelsea target Enzo Fernandez worth £105million after so few senior matches?

https://theathletic.com/4054592/2023/01/05/enzo-fernandez-worth-transfer/

Breakthrough seasons don’t get more dizzying than the ride Enzo Fernandez has been on since signing for Benfica from River Plate in a deal worth €14million (£12.3m) in July.

Within the space of six months, the 21-year-old went his first 22 matches unbeaten with his new club, announcing himself on the European stage by shining in midfield as Benfica topped a Champions League group featuring Paris Saint-Germain and Juventus, then broke into Argentina’s starting XI during the World Cup and immediately established himself as an indispensable contributor to a historic triumph in Qatar.

Having deservedly walked away with the FIFA Young Player of the Tournament award, Fernandez is now second only to the Borussia Dortmund sensation Jude Bellingham in the ranks of the most-coveted young midfielders in the world. Chelsea have been particularly proactive in the early days of January as they search for a high-level successor to Jorginho, who is set to become a free agent in the summer.

Benfica, who are under no obligation or financial duress to sell, have made it clear they will not part with Fernandez for any less than the value of his €120million (£105million) release clause. Even by the standards of aggressive spending that Todd Boehly and Clearlake Capital have set since their acquisition of Chelsea last May, it would be a jaw-dropping outlay on a player with little more than 100 professional appearances for club and country to his name.

So the key question is: just how special is Fernandez? Is he really worth that kind of transfer fee?

Any data-led analysis of Fernandez quickly runs into the issue of small sample size; he simply hasn’t played enough high-level football for clubs to comprehensively model his strengths and weaknesses and confidently predict the player he can become. With that important disclaimer noted, the advanced numbers from his 14 Primeira Liga appearances for Benfica indicate a talent that merits the close attention of Europe’s elite teams.

Using Smarterscout, which can create a statistical profile of a footballer using ratings from zero to 99 to show how often they perform a specific action compared to others playing in their position or how effective they are at it, we can see that Fernandez projects as an exceptional progressive midfield playmaker who has the ability to impact matches defensively.

Many of those attributes were on display in the World Cup final against France — by far the biggest match of Fernandez’s career. For more than an hour, he provided the passing foundation and defensive balance for Argentina’s total control against the defending champions. Then, once momentum shifted and Kylian Mbappe led a remarkable fightback, he played an integral role in weathering the storm and powering a thrilling extra-time push.

Fernandez was helped by the fact France under Didier Deschamps do not often hunt the ball high up, but he also gave them little encouragement whenever they did try to press. Here, with six French players near him in the Argentina half, Fernandez recognises that Angel Di Maria will immediately be pressured by Mbappe and Adrien Rabiot if he receives the obvious pass — so, instead, he skips him out, clipping the ball into the space ahead of Nahuel Molina…

When given more space to receive the ball in midfield, Fernandez showcased the ability to quickly turn defence into attack. Here, a sharp pass from Cristian Romero finds him free behind Antoine Griezmann…

… and with minimal touches to control and pivot, he swiftly looks up and floats a precise ball out towards an unmarked Nicolas Tagliafico on the left touchline…

Later in the game, with a resurgent France now level, he advances over the halfway line with the ball at his feet and uses the presence of two team-mates to his left to disguise a pass through the opposition midfield to Julian Alvarez. The aim here — as it was with virtually every Argentina attack at the World Cup — is to get Lionel Messi involved as quickly as possible…

On this occasion, Messi is stifled and France counter quickly but, 10 seconds later, Fernandez has worked back effectively enough to help pressure Marcus Thuram into the least immediately dangerous option — a pass out to Mbappe on the left flank…

Fernandez never neglected his defensive responsibilities at the base of Argentina’s midfield, and his contributions without the ball became more important as fatigue grew for both teams. His reading of danger was evidenced early in the first half.

Here, Ousmane Dembele lays the ball back and Fernandez anticipates that the next pass is heading towards Griezmann…

… and he closes the distance quickly to make a perfectly-timed tackle…

In the opening minutes of the second half, as Nicolas Otamendi’s loose touch pops up into the air, Fernandez is already on the move towards Mbappe, who is well positioned to capitalise if the French substitute Randal Kolo Muani wins his header…

Kolo Muani does just that, but almost as soon as Mbappe brings the ball under control, Fernandez gets in front of him, eventually conceding a corner kick…

In the manic exchanges that followed in extra time, Fernandez is dispossessed inside his own half, under pressure from Thuram and Kolo Muani…

Kolo Muani races away to the edge of the Argentina penalty area but, before he can threaten the goal, the recovering Fernandez hooks a leg to take the ball away…

Then there was Fernandez’s most-important defensive contribution of the match: popping up in his own box in the final seconds to brilliantly poke the ball away from Mbappe who, having already scored a hat-trick, has beaten two Argentina defenders and is shaping up to score the winner…

Argentina’s triumph will be remembered primarily as the definitive affirmation of Messi’s greatness, but it isn’t an exaggeration to suggest that Fernandez’s introduction from the bench against Mexico in the group stage — and the subsequent re-balancing of Lionel Scaloni’s midfield around him — changed the trajectory of their World Cup, providing the platform to deliver the ball to the game’s greatest player in positions where he could be at his most decisive.

Perhaps it should have been more obvious to Scaloni from the outset that Fernandez was ready to play this role, given his performances for Benfica in the Primeira Liga — they top the table by five points ahead of Porto — and an impressive Champions League group stage in the first half of the season.

Benfica emerged unbeaten from Group H, edging out PSG for top spot after two 1-1 draws with the French champions and beating a jaded Juventus team home and away. Fernandez started all four of those matches, operating in a double midfield pivot alongside Florentino Luis, providing a blend of control and creativity in possession and defensive diligence out of it.

These meetings with Juventus and PSG also offered useful indicators of how Fernandez might cope with more intense, sustained midfield pressure; contrasting the slower pace of international football. Here, in the home match against Juventus, he receives a pass from the right touchline with two opponents ready to pounce on a poor touch…

Fernandez instead uses his first touch to chop the ball away from the advancing opponent, before sending a quick pass left with the outside of his right foot, enabling Benfica to advance the ball into space and send their opposition into retreat…

Mixed in with Fernandez’s shorter, more subtle passes are incisive longer ones. His accurate switches of play from left to right have become a feature of Benfica’s possession this season and, perhaps aware of that threat in the same game against Juventus, he instead floats a pass over the right of the opposing full-back into the path of a runner…

Fernandez’s most eye-catching performance of all might have been in the 1-1 draw with PSG at Parc des Princes in October. Benfica had just 38 per cent of possession and were required to defend for long periods and make the most of their limited time on the ball. Their star midfielder was crucial to them achieving both.

Here, 10 minutes in, Fernandez reads that Sergio Ramos is about to win the ball — and that the lightning-fast Achraf Hakimi has space to attack…

Fernandez shuffles quickly to cut off the wing-back’s run, standing up his opponent and ultimately winning the ball cleanly when Hakimi tries to knock it past him…

On the ball, Fernandez completed 90 per cent of his passes, and they were not all the safe option of going sideways or backwards. Here, he spots and executes a first-time pass with the outside of his right foot through a narrow gap between two PSG players, taking four opponents out of the game and giving Benfica the platform to attack…

In the second half, Fernandez is on the ball facing away from the goal and appears as if he is about to pass back to one of his defenders — something the PSG attackers are certainly expecting…

But, having sold them the backwards pass, Fernandez quickly steps over the ball, spins and rattles a sharp pass between two more PSG players into the feet of his more advanced team-mate situated between the lines…

Fernandez also demonstrates good instincts in finding advantageous situations for his team. Receiving a pass from the left touchline against Juventus in Turin, the standard play for a lot of midfielders here would be to open up the body and play to the right, either with a short pass or a longer switch of play…

But, before the ball comes to him, Fernandez anticipates an onrushing opponent is giving his team a potential two vs one on the left. So he simply steps onto the ball, rolls it under his right foot and quickly sends it back where it came from…

Fernandez looks like an elite midfield playmaker in the making, and a comparison with positional peers outside Europe’s top five leagues over the past 365 days on fbref.com places him in the 90th percentile or above for assists (0.2), expected assisted goals (0.22), shot-creating actions (4.67), passes attempted (97.4) and progressive passes (9.4) per 90 minutes, as well as the 77th percentile for tackles (2.5) per 90 minutes.

These stats, on top of impactful performances against high-level Champions League opposition and a key role in the emotional cauldron of a World Cup final, show why Chelsea and other elite clubs are casting admiring glances in Fernandez’s direction.

---

But the key question remains: how much is Fernandez actually worth?

The best answer, though hardly satisfying, is that the market will determine his value. Right now, Benfica are in a strong position to insist on no less than the full amount of his release clause — though Fernandez appears to be doing all he can to weaken their stance. It will take a high level of urgency (or desperation, depending on your perspective) to prise him away.

Look down the list of football’s most-expensive transfers and the fees tend to tell you more about the buying clubs than about the quality of the players involved…

It also reads like a litany of disappointment. This is in part because the finances involved often set the bar for success almost impossibly high. In a sport consisting of 11-man teams, how many individual players are impactful enough to be worth in excess of £100million?

If paid, Benfica’s asking price would make Fernandez the most-expensive Premier League player ever. His rapid rise to international prominence means there is nowhere near enough data to be anything close to certain — but there is a real chance he could be one of the finest midfielders of his generation, capable of influencing every aspect of top-level matches for the next decade or longer.

Yet, the problem will be that if Chelsea agree to pay €120million for Fernandez, they can’t afford for him to be anything less.

Edited January 6, 2023 by Vesper

[Vesper 28,795]

[Strike 7,217]

13 hours ago, Vegetable said:

Just a sidenote, but if You are guys shaken by the fact, that someone promised to pay asking price and then started to negotiate better terms and think this is some scandalous, dishonorable move (whereas it pretty much how negotation process works), better not even let your mind wander to think of how and what kind business did Abramovitch conduct throught his entire live…

Going by the strong reactions from Benfica calling it 'unacceptable', the negotiating team dropped the ball here. They should figure that Benfica are not desperate for cash - sold Nunez in the summer and have sold Felix in the last few years for similar money. This low-balling has made the chances of a deal very slim and it is not just in hindsight, there were plenty saying this before the official negotiation  - that it would take an amount close to the release clause to have any hope of striking a deal

[Blue Armour 4,278]

6 hours ago, Superblue said:

Jesus Christ, I've only just jumped on here after last night and had to trawl through half a dozen pages of rambling and moaning.

The Benfica side is saying we offered one thing and now something else.

The Chelsea side (Matt Law today, but particularly David Ornstein all along) is saying that the figures being put out there were never offered and we're sticking to our own valuations of the player.

You clearly believe the Benfica side, probably because you're pissed off that the potential transfer has collapsed.

But the facts are none of us were there, so it's all just assumption at present and when two sides of a story are wildly different the truth is usually something in the middle. 

Whilst I'd love us to buy Enzo, I also don't want us being mugged off in the market and paying over players valuations. We did enough of that in the summer, the club needs to at times make a stand and ensure it's being run financially sound moving forward. Whether we like it or not, THAT is more important for the long term future than any player potentially being bought or not.

Maybe we did not offer said amount to Benfica.

The point of contention here is that we told the player, Enzo, and his entourage that we would trigger the clause. Maybe something got lost in translation, but it apparently turned the players head., according to their club president. And there is some evidence here, given that Enzo basically failed to show up for training for few days.

Having a poor relationship with another club is one thing (and definitely not good), but screwing a top player doesn't send a good message when trying to convince other superstars. 

Anyway, damage if any, is already done. Time to move on.

Edited January 6, 2023 by Blue Armour

[Special Juan 27,424]

If we do manage to get this bloke it will be a club record fee and probably a 42 year contract

[Johnnyeye 7,440]

4 hours ago, Vesper said:

yup, pretty much sums up the state of the club.

[Vesper 28,795]

Anyone who thinks the entire Benfica organisation (who are amongst the more straight dealers in the big 10 leagues) is just making shit up is delusional

we fucked up badly, and I can see this becoming an ultimate 'split the TC board' event, where you have some hardliners who refuse to admit we fucked up badly

Boehly's word is now tarnished across Europe to a point, and if we nightmarishly do this again, we are WELL FUCKED in the transfer market as long as he is involved with us and it.

Marina did not do this type of shit, she didn't play games and lead clubs on in monster deals (and I have some gravitas backing me up on that, as most know I was far from her biggest fan) 

PLUS, we are not getting a profoundly needed player who had a damn good chance of of being quite transformational

 

a good summary:

https://www.express.co.uk/sport/football/1717465/Chelsea-transfer-news-Enzo-Fernandez-Benfica-Premier-League-latest

Chelsea have reportedly had three meetings with Benfica this month to try and lure Fernandez to Stamford Bridge.

But the Portuguese giants quickly made it clear that the 21-year-old wouldn't be going anywhere unless any suitors triggered his £106million release clause.

Rife reports earlier this week claimed Chelsea were willing to offer £112m to persuade Benfica to part ways with their most prized asset, but in instalments to adhere to FFP rules.

However, Fabrizio Romano later reported that the Blues only offered £75m, significantly less than the demands that would've made Fernandez the most expensive Premier League player in history.

And Schmidt has backed up that revelation by revealing an interested party were 'disrespectful' by offering lower than the release clause, despite indicating an intention to pay the full amount.

He said: "We don't want to sell Enzo [Fernandez]. There's a club that wants him [and] tempted him, but they know the only way is [by paying the] £106m (€120m) clause.

"They're disrespectful. They're leaving the player crazy. They acted like they wanted to pay clause... then wanted to negotiate [a cheaper fee]."

The Benfica boss also heaped praise on Fernandez, stressing his desire for the World Cup's Best Young Player to remain in Lisbon beyond January.

"Enzo is a good guy and an extraordinary player. We want him to stay," Schmidt added.

"The situation is not easy. He played in the World Cup, won the World Cup, had proposals. There is a lot of money at stake."

[Vegetable 830]

I would really like to see fans of any other club crying for owner to break league transfer record every purchase without second thought and calling him names for having a minimum of reasonability. And it's coming from people I would consider absolutely level-headed posters here!

I don't know what kind of mentality it is to think Benfica is having a pure gold mix of Pele and Zidane on their hands (yet somehow no other club seems to care for this bargain price of 120 million) and we are some small-time club, that has to kiss their feet to even talk with them, when we are not even competing with anyone. We are not some Arab or USA club, that has to sweeten every deal with extra 100 million for anyone to even talk with us.

And most important question to those overexcited: What if this guy comes for ridiculous, record fee of 130 million and turns out another Saul (what is highly probable)? You gonna apologize, or just go radio silence or even bash the club for stupid transfers and cry for another 150 milion kid, because it's not your 130 milion that went to the shitter?

Fact we Paid 90 mil for Lukaku and 60 for Cucu only means this idiocy has to stop, not that we have to pay twice more for anyone better. Clubs saw TB is overpaying and are rightly milking it, so being assertive is a right thing to do, not "turning us into untrustworthy club". And us "turning player's head?" Lol. What about Bayern or Real snooping around our players and targets 24/7? Or maybe better, wanna talk about ethical background of pulling favela kids from South America for penauts to play in your stars-breeding team?

Just chill, we've sold Hazard, freaking prime Hazard for 100 million, so maybe start your thinking from there before firing up FM23 for a next new great wonderkid. We wanted smarter business and now people are upset, because TB is looking to stop pulling even more headless version of early Roman, just chill.

Especially since we have zero knowledge of what *actually* happened and if it's Benfica leaking this drama, then they should be slapped and left to play to rot with their golden boy.    

 

[TheHulk 1,855]

9 minutes ago, Vesper said:

Anyone who thinks the entire Benfica organisation (who are amongst the more straight dealers in the big 10 leagues) is just making shit up is delusional

we fucked up badly, and I can see this becoming an ultimate 'split the TC board' event, where you have some hardliners who refuse to admit we fucked up badly

Boehly's word is now tarnished across Europe to a point, and if we nightmarishly do this again, we are WELL FUCKED in the transfer market as long as he is involved with us and it.

Marina did not do this type of shit, she didn't play games and lead clubs on in monster deals (and I have some gravitas backing me up on that, as most know I was far from her biggest fan) 

PLUS, we are not getting a profoundly needed player who had a damn good chance of of being quite transformational

 

a good summary:

https://www.express.co.uk/sport/football/1717465/Chelsea-transfer-news-Enzo-Fernandez-Benfica-Premier-League-latest

Chelsea have reportedly had three meetings with Benfica this month to try and lure Fernandez to Stamford Bridge.

But the Portuguese giants quickly made it clear that the 21-year-old wouldn't be going anywhere unless any suitors triggered his £106million release clause.

Rife reports earlier this week claimed Chelsea were willing to offer £112m to persuade Benfica to part ways with their most prized asset, but in instalments to adhere to FFP rules.

However, Fabrizio Romano later reported that the Blues only offered £75m, significantly less than the demands that would've made Fernandez the most expensive Premier League player in history.

And Schmidt has backed up that revelation by revealing an interested party were 'disrespectful' by offering lower than the release clause, despite indicating an intention to pay the full amount.

He said: "We don't want to sell Enzo [Fernandez]. There's a club that wants him [and] tempted him, but they know the only way is [by paying the] £106m (€120m) clause.

"They're disrespectful. They're leaving the player crazy. They acted like they wanted to pay clause... then wanted to negotiate [a cheaper fee]."

The Benfica boss also heaped praise on Fernandez, stressing his desire for the World Cup's Best Young Player to remain in Lisbon beyond January.

"Enzo is a good guy and an extraordinary player. We want him to stay," Schmidt added.

"The situation is not easy. He played in the World Cup, won the World Cup, had proposals. There is a lot of money at stake."

Slowly but surely were reaching Arsenal level of pettiness, yesterday I saw people come up with gymnastics about what it means to be a businessman which reminds me of Ty from AFTV who was so far down his club's ass he couldn't comprehend the idea his club could ever be in the wrong.

We fucked up this deal, fucked up in some possible deals from here on and probably bought us the Rice ticket from next season, which makes me sick and angry.

[Vesper 28,795]

I am deffo pulling Dembele off any 'even remotely available'-based lists

 

[Blue Armour 4,278]

15 minutes ago, Vesper said:

 

He said: "We don't want to sell Enzo [Fernandez]. There's a club that wants him [and] tempted him, but they know the only way is [by paying the] £106m (€120m) clause.

 

If there's still a positive in all this -

If those are his exact words (and not just a result of translation), he's speaking in the present tense and says that Chelsea still wants him, and has not backed away. And he hasn't said that they won't deal with us again.

So the door is still open, I guess.

[Vesper 28,795]

7 minutes ago, Vegetable said:

I would really like to see fans of any other club crying for owner to break league transfer record every purchase without second thought and calling him names for having a minimum of reasonability. And it's coming from people I would consider absolutely level-headed posters here!

that is NOT the issue for me

it's the duplicitous short-arm play, talk up paying the RC, then when its time to shit or get off the loo, have the cheek to toss in an official offer that was 35m less than a price we knew was basically etched in stone (the wiggle room was on the instalment terms, but that is now blown to fuck for good)

you and some others may be all good with that

I think it is fucking disastrous way to try and do business

Edited January 6, 2023 by Vesper

[Vegetable 830]

6 minutes ago, Vesper said:

that is NOT the issue for me

it's the duplicitous short-arm play, talk up paying the RC, then when its time to shit of get off the loo, have the cheek to toss in an official offer that was 35m less than a price we knew was basically etched in stone (the wiggle room was on the instalment terms, but that is now blown to fuck for good)

you and some others may be all good with that

I think it is fucking disastrous way to try and do business

I get You, however I stand by the idea we have zero knowledge of what actually happened and wouldn't be so fast to hold TB for his words. I would believe we wanted to trigger the clause, but after 2nd day of twitter drama I stopped believing a single word that was reported.

And actually, what if mid talks Bohely came up with like "hey, we've got new analytics, our numbers show he may be like 30% more Saul than we thought, best we can do is 80 mil"?  What should we do? They have right to take it and right to walk away, it's not unusual new stuff is coming up during talks, just look at the old Fofana ordeal. All we know it's another time board lets to make clown of club in media, because they have zero pr team.

Edited January 6, 2023 by Vegetable

[Vesper 28,795]

25 minutes ago, TheHulk said:

Slowly but surely were reaching Arsenal level of pettiness, yesterday I saw people come up with gymnastics about what it means to be a businessman which reminds me of Ty from AFTV who was so far down his club's ass he couldn't comprehend the idea his club could ever be in the wrong.

We fucked up this deal, fucked up in some possible deals from here on and probably bought us the Rice ticket from next season, which makes me sick and angry.

hell no to Rice for what West Ham is demanding

just hell to the fucking no

he has been shit in the majority of the games I have watched him in this year