Kai Havertz

[Magic Lamps 11,653]

Maybe too much pressure. We rebuild the system for him but he can not really deliver week in week out as of yet. Maybe we have up the 433 too soon

[Sir Mikel OBE 4,919]

That was a Willian-esque performance if I have ever seen one tonight. His wandering around wont be able to hide bad managing for long. He was further deep than Kante on some occasion, and was just lost.

 

Pulisic did more through the middle than he did and he was barely there

[Puliiszola 519]

8 hours ago, Magic Lamps said:

Maybe too much pressure. We rebuild the system for him but he can not really deliver week in week out as of yet. Maybe we have up the 433 too soon

Can you give a bit of summary on him, what are his strengths? His weaknesses. Asking this of you with the assumption that you might have seen more of him in German NT and German league. 

So far he has looked average to me. His only saving grace is his movement which seems world class. On the ball, he has looked clueless which is a weird thing to say for someone who is given a free role as a no.10 in a team which has massive defensive issues, so for me we simply can't have a luxury player or a free roler. 

Again, to me it looks like he is someone who would thrive having a DLP like cesc behind him feeding him balls, using his movement rather than someone who will actually make that defence splitting pass.

Also, are these just settling issues or is he actually that poor in

1. Ball shielding

2. Decision making

3. Hopelessly left footed

For someone dubbed as a "generational talent", his basics (specially ball shielding) seems to be very very poor.  

[Rekin 835]

The guy is 21 years old, moved away from his childhood team to a new one where he basically started without a pre-season. 

Yes, he was poor yesterday. Yes he looked careless with the ball, and did not create much overall. The rest of the team looked poor too however.

Werner had a horrible first touch, Pulisic got bogged down and threatened very rarely, Kante and Jorginho barely managed to maintain possession etc. 
It was a difficult game, and Frank's tactics currently are not favoring many of the players. 

He has shown more than once since his arrival though that he is very talented. He has scored, assisted and more than once created good opportunities by himself. 

We need to be patient with him, let the team gel and most importantly improve our ability to hold on to the ball so that he has time to find space.  

[killer1257 3,282]

Havertz is a player that needs posession. Without the ball, he was always useless.


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[Puliiszola 519]

5 minutes ago, killer1257 said:

Havertz is a player that needs posession. Without the ball, he was always useless.


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What did he do well under possession? Also, he is supposed to be the lynchpin of our attack, who is supposed to connect the mid and attack. If he keeps losing possession 50% of the time he touches the ball, it will be hard for us to keep possession

[Puliiszola 519]

2 hours ago, Rekin said:

The guy is 21 years old, moved away from his childhood team to a new one where he basically started without a pre-season. 

Yes, he was poor yesterday. Yes he looked careless with the ball, and did not create much overall. The rest of the team looked poor too however.

Werner had a horrible first touch, Pulisic got bogged down and threatened very rarely, Kante and Jorginho barely managed to maintain possession etc. 
It was a difficult game, and Frank's tactics currently are not favoring many of the players. 

He has shown more than once since his arrival though that he is very talented. He has scored, assisted and more than once created good opportunities by himself. 

We need to be patient with him, let the team gel and most importantly improve our ability to hold on to the ball so that he has time to find space.  

Hazard was 21 too, did not set the league on fire, but the talent was apparent by just looking at him play once or twice. Nothing so far with havertz.

[killer1257 3,282]

What did he do well under possession? Also, he is supposed to be the lynchpin of our attack, who is supposed to connect the mid and attack. If he keeps losing possession 50% of the time he touches the ball, it will be hard for us to keep possession

I do not think that he is a lynchlin of our attack, that connects offensive with defensive. Havertz is a faster version of Lampard with better dribbling skills. That is how I would describe Havertz playing style, so he will never do that. It was not like Lampard was some sort of Pirlo or something.
If we want someone that connects everything, we need someone like Aouar or Thiago. Those guys do that. Havertz is just an AM, who is a very inconsistent AM. And yes, his game was bad yesterday, but so was Pulisic, Mount, Jorgi, Kante and Timo. Only good players were our defense and our GK.

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[communicate 2,703]

4 hours ago, Puliiszola said:

Can you give a bit of summary on him, what are his strengths? His weaknesses. Asking this of you with the assumption that you might have seen more of him in German NT and German league. 

So far he has looked average to me. His only saving grace is his movement which seems world class. On the ball, he has looked clueless which is a weird thing to say for someone who is given a free role as a no.10 in a team which has massive defensive issues, so for me we simply can't have a luxury player or a free roler. 

Again, to me it looks like he is someone who would thrive having a DLP like cesc behind him feeding him balls, using his movement rather than someone who will actually make that defence splitting pass.

Also, are these just settling issues or is he actually that poor in

1. Ball shielding

2. Decision making

3. Hopelessly left footed

For someone dubbed as a "generational talent", his basics (specially ball shielding) seems to be very very poor.  

He is pretty much can do it all AM. 

 

[Puliiszola 519]

1 minute ago, killer1257 said:

I do not think that he is a lynchlin of our attack, that connects offensive with defensive. Havertz is a faster version of Lampard with better dribbling skills. That is how I would describe Havertz playing style, so he will never do that. It was not like Lampard was some sort of Pirlo or something.
If we want someone that connects everything, we need someone like Aouar or Thiago. Those guys do that. Havertz is just an AM, who is a very inconsistent AM. And yes, his game was bad yesterday, but so was Pulisic, Mount, Jorgi, Kante and Timo. Only good players were our defense and our GK.

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There are different types of AMs. Players like mata and kdb are the lynchpin of the attacks of their teams. Who control the flow of the game. Kai is given a no.10 role, a floater with either of the 2 of kova, kante, jorginho behind him, none of those 3 are going to be anywhere near to the quality of a ball playing CM who can get the mid and attack in sync. That responsibility HAS to be with Kai, specially as a floater, otherwise we should play him in a false 9 or on the wing. 

 

Also, I got nothing against Kai, but I also kno that if mount put in that performance yesterday, he would have been ridiculed, trolled, abused. If Kai is 21, so is mount. 

[Magic Lamps 11,653]

4 hours ago, Puliiszola said:

Can you give a bit of summary on him, what are his strengths? His weaknesses. Asking this of you with the assumption that you might have seen more of him in German NT and German league. 

So far he has looked average to me. His only saving grace is his movement which seems world class. On the ball, he has looked clueless which is a weird thing to say for someone who is given a free role as a no.10 in a team which has massive defensive issues, so for me we simply can't have a luxury player or a free roler. 

Again, to me it looks like he is someone who would thrive having a DLP like cesc behind him feeding him balls, using his movement rather than someone who will actually make that defence splitting pass.

Also, are these just settling issues or is he actually that poor in

1. Ball shielding

2. Decision making

3. Hopelessly left footed

For someone dubbed as a "generational talent", his basics (specially ball shielding) seems to be very very poor.  

I wrote a bit on him in the transfer thread a few months ago. Still stand by that mostly.

80m would be a Substantial but absolutely worthwhile investment. He will only appreciate in value with the crazy talent of his. Mind his goalscoring record is without being on penalty duty or cf tap ins. His actions on the ball are absolute quality. IMO he is very similar to Kaka in playing style with a bit of Zidane but not that similar to Lampard and Ballack who were both a bit more robust and more vertical in their movement and space usage in the sense that they could tact the tempo of the play in Front of the Defence and spray long balls or build up play, roam up and down in search for goalscoring positions and threaten goal even from 30yards+. Havertz moves more around and inside the penalty box, from flank to flank and in the channels. He knows he is most effective when he comes at least close to 20 yards to the opposition goal even if his pace is an added bonus on the break. So he is more of a pure yet versatile offensive player rather than a complete midfielder Lamps/Ballack Style.
In that sense  he would complete any attack. While, because of his meagre defensive Workrate  and lack of tackling and tactical skills he would be wasted in central midfield, With a player like him in our front 3/4 we can optionally completely leave out a traditional striker  or traditional wingers if we would like. He would not only give us a future top 10 player in the world but also a ton of tactical options up front. 

 

What I noticed is that for one heis not as useful on the wing as i remember in bundesliga in the earlier games and now he is playing deeper than ever for us esp in the last 2 games and also receiving the ball deeper where is is not as useful. Probabl helping out in midfield as our midfield has become a major weakness lately. The players just not complement each other well and are all quite limited.we really could use an old fashioned physical ball playing DM and a classic box to box midfielder for the double pivot these days. Anyway we will know more about how Havertz fits in here in a few weeks as he has only played in a fixed position in system for 5 games now and is still settling in.

 

[Puliiszola 519]

23 minutes ago, Magic Lamps said:

I wrote a bit on him in the transfer thread a few months ago. Still stand by that mostly.

80m would be a Substantial but absolutely worthwhile investment. He will only appreciate in value with the crazy talent of his. Mind his goalscoring record is without being on penalty duty or cf tap ins. His actions on the ball are absolute quality. IMO he is very similar to Kaka in playing style with a bit of Zidane but not that similar to Lampard and Ballack who were both a bit more robust and more vertical in their movement and space usage in the sense that they could tact the tempo of the play in Front of the Defence and spray long balls or build up play, roam up and down in search for goalscoring positions and threaten goal even from 30yards+. Havertz moves more around and inside the penalty box, from flank to flank and in the channels. He knows he is most effective when he comes at least close to 20 yards to the opposition goal even if his pace is an added bonus on the break. So he is more of a pure yet versatile offensive player rather than a complete midfielder Lamps/Ballack Style.
In that sense  he would complete any attack. While, because of his meagre defensive Workrate  and lack of tackling and tactical skills he would be wasted in central midfield, With a player like him in our front 3/4 we can optionally completely leave out a traditional striker  or traditional wingers if we would like. He would not only give us a future top 10 player in the world but also a ton of tactical options up front. 

 

What I noticed is that for one heis not as useful on the wing as i remember in bundesliga in the earlier games and now he is playing deeper than ever for us esp in the last 2 games and also receiving the ball deeper where is is not as useful. Probabl helping out in midfield as our midfield has become a major weakness lately. The players just not complement each other well and are all quite limited.we really could use an old fashioned physical ball playing DM and a classic box to box midfielder for the double pivot these days. Anyway we will know more about how Havertz fits in here in a few weeks as he has only played in a fixed position in system for 5 games now and is still settling in.

 

Thank you. I hope his quality shines through. One thing is for sure, the squad simply does not complement each other. 

[Rekin 835]

11 hours ago, Puliiszola said:

Hazard was 21 too, did not set the league on fire, but the talent was apparent by just looking at him play once or twice. Nothing so far with havertz.

Hazard is a completely different type of player than Havertz. His playing style was a good fit for both PL and the team Chelsea had back then. 

 

[Tomo 21,733]

11 hours ago, Puliiszola said:

Hazard was 21 too, did not set the league on fire, but the talent was apparent by just looking at him play once or twice. Nothing so far with havertz.

Needs to be assessed on a case by case basis. Hazard may have been relatively ace from the get go but some players (who turn out great) take a bit more time. Lampard, CR7, Henry, Pires, De Gea to name an obvious few.

[DANILA 290]

really hope he picks it up - right now his best play is passing it backwards. Really want to love him 

[Puliiszola 519]

1 hour ago, Rekin said:

Hazard is a completely different type of player than Havertz. His playing style was a good fit for both PL and the team Chelsea had back then. 

 

Hazard's playing style NEVER suited or was in sync with chelsea's playing style. He was someone who thrives on having the ball, and he had to play under Rafa, Jose, Conte - 3 defensive minded coaches. Who were probably more worried about him tracking back and defending than his output in front of the goal. 

[Puliiszola 519]

57 minutes ago, Tomo said:

Needs to be assessed on a case by case basis. Hazard may have been relatively ace from the get go but some players (who turn out great) take a bit more time. Lampard, CR7, Henry, Pires, De Gea to name an obvious few.

Fair. Hope he picks it up. As of this moment, changing our formation, style of play and everything to suit him is a great show of faith by FL. Hope he repays him sooner rather than later. Knowing Roman and the board, there might not be a later.

[Magic Lamps 11,653]

31 minutes ago, Puliiszola said:

Fair. Hope he picks it up. As of this moment, changing our formation, style of play and everything to suit him is a great show of faith by FL. Hope he repays him sooner rather than later. Knowing Roman and the board, there might not be a later.

The problem is, if you play with a no 10 your offense is screwed if the no 10 does not perform. You can’t afford your playmaker wandering out of the game. On the rare occasion teams managed to mark Lamps completely out of the game like Liverpool did in the 2005 and 2007 cL semis, we looked really ordinary. 
The no 10 needs to be backed and the players work for him to get his passes into the danger area. 
This means if we now fire lamps as manager we need to make sure that his successor has a similar vision otherwise we will never get maximum out of our biggest signing