Mikel John Obi

[robsblubot 3,529]

It simply comes down to what you expect/want out of a defensive midfielder. Citing goal and assist totals from a true defensive midfielder is ridiculous because that's not their job at all. According to you, Makalele was useless because he contributed almost nothing offensively. Same with "being creative". Teams don't have 11 creative players. You don't need your defensive midfielder to be creative. It's just not his job. Mikel is certainly not an elite player but he's a very decent defensive midfielder and he does his job (staying in his lanes, tackling, not turning the ball over) very well unfortunately for him, Mikel does things that people don't appreciate. To me, he is a more valuable offensive player than Luiz whose sum contributions are a massive negative to the team. Yes, he can score a couple of goals, but if it takes 60 shots to get them, it hurts the team. Yes, he can make a great pass, but if it takes 5 turnovers to get it, it hurts the team. There is incredible value in keeping possession as there is in covering for defenders who are out of position. You could also see against Everton, the way Mikel covered for players all over the pitch when Cole and Luiz especially were out of position. I can appreciate wanting to upgrade, but the hatred of Mikel is so completely insane and hard to understand.

Makelele *was* because it was a different time where those type of players were indeed used. Their "job" has changed. Where is Munich's pure DM? How about Real? Or Barca? makelele had a lot more aggression and pace than Mikel btw.

Please notice the terms you've used to describe Mikel: decent, not elite... well pardon me for wanting better than "decent" and "not elite."

And yet, David, the player you dislike, is a sure starter for one of the top Nationals Teams in the world, is sought after by a number of top managers and teams, including Barca and Munich. The same can't be said of Mikel. Sorry, but I will stick with the evidence here.

[TorontoChelsea 4,064]

Is that all people, or just Chelsea supporters?

How are you able to 'appreciate' these gifts when others can't?

That "many" people don't appreciate.

[robsblubot 3,529]

Rooney missed 11 matches from 38 last season for united including two games against liverpool. Drogba missed a whole lot of games in those three seasons because there were two AFCON's in there and that's not counting his injuries. Winning or losing cannot be attributed to one player and it does not necessarily mean the team played better. We were terrible against Villa but still won while we were much better against Everton but lost. But then you make the conclusion from that stat that the team played better without Mikel even though he was MOTM!

Just for the record, Mikel does not only play short passes, last season, he had the longest average pass length between anyone who played in the pivot (joint highest with Lampard IIRC). But short passes are not easy. If they are then why do top players even like Lampard miss some in every game. One or two short passes are easy, but getting 55 out of 60 in a game correct is not. That consistency is where the quality is.

Most top teams play with a holding midfielder. United have carrick who plays the exact same game of Mikel. Tottenham currently have Paulinho who is no where near as good as Mikel. Arsenal have Arteta who is good on the ball but can't defend and occupy spaces like Mikel. City play with three in midfield so it's different, but the used to have Barry for the job and now he's doing it at Everton. Even Barcelona would not be half as effective as they are now without the best holding midfielder currently in the world that is Busquets.

I don't think Rooney is very interesting because he is on the bench and has been second option to RVP for quite some time...

No, the difficulty in short passing is ALL about pressure! The deeper you are, the easier it is to complete them.

Without pressure a player will not miss a single short pass...

[Phil Driver 503]

Makelele was useless going forward ,his shooting was almost as bad as Mikel's ,what a DM though .

Anyone who suggests we should compare Messi's/Drogba's win/play stats with Mikel's is clearly not of sane mind.

Lets have a look at Mikel's stats even further great pass/completion figure high 80's % .

Very good . If that is so brilliant why does that not translate into Chelsea winning more games when he plays ,bearing in mind he is excellent? This very valuable contribution must feed through to the aim ,Chelsea winning matches ,it does not and that is because slow,negative passing and not being a good defensive midfielder aka Maka does not help Chelsea win more matches than they win/draw despite us being a very succesful club ,his stats are more in line with a relegation team.

[TorontoChelsea 4,064]

Makelele *was* because it was a different time where those type of players were indeed used. Their "job" has changed. Where is Munich's pure DM? How about Real? Or Barca?

Please notice the terms you used to describe Mikel: decent, not elite... well pardon me to want better than "decent" and "not elite."

And yet, David, the player you dislike, is a sure starter for one of the top Nationals Teams in the world, is sought after by a number of top managers and teams, including Barca and Munich. The same can't be said of Mikel. Sorry, but I will stick with the evidence here.

I've never said I didn't like Luiz, he is out best central defender when he's not being an idiot. You just massively overrate the value of his offensive skills. (as do many other people. Luiz is our worst finisher and worst percentage long-ball passer) and underrate players who don't make mistakes. Yes, not all teams use a pure defensive midfielder but many many still do. Anyway, Javi Martinez and Busquets are both defensive midfielders in a fairly classic sense. (Busquets has 4 goals in 150 games with maybe the best offensive teams ever) Many top Premier League teams still play with a defensive midfielder as well.(Garcia, Sandro, Lucas, Barry, etc..) Regardless of the exact sort of player, pretty much every team needs the same sort of player, that is players who move the ball well, who don't shoot much, who don't try too many fancy things, who play simple, error-free football. You can't fill your squad with players who want to shoot and wander out of position. You need what they call in basketball a "glue guy" a guy who holds your team together without putting up impressive stats or trying to do too much. Teams don't have 11 guys trying to create. You have 4 or 5 . You don't have 11 guys trying to score, you have 4 or 5 (except on set pieces).

[robsblubot 3,529]

I've never said I didn't like Luiz, he is out best central defender when he's not being an idiot. You just massively overrate the value of his offensive skills. (as do many other people. Luiz is our worst finisher and worst percentage long-ball passer) and underrate players who don't make mistakes. Yes, not all teams use a pure defensive midfielder but many many still do. Anyway, Javi Martinez and Busquets are both defensive midfielders in a fairly classic sense. (Busquets has 4 goals in 150 games with maybe the best offensive teams ever) Many top Premier League teams still play with a defensive midfielder as well.(Garcia, Sandro, Lucas, Barry, etc..) Regardless of the exact sort of player, pretty much every team needs the same sort of player, that is players who move the ball well, who don't shoot much, who don't try too many fancy things, who play simple, error-free football. You can't fill your squad with players who want to shoot and wander out of position. You need what they call in basketball a "glue guy" a guy who holds your team together without putting up impressive stats or trying to do too much. Teams don't have 11 guys trying to create. You have 4 or 5 . You don't have 11 guys trying to score, you have 4 or 5 (except on set pieces).

I don't completely disagree with what you said, except of course about the stuff I did not say (about Luiz). Luiz is a great CB, but too old to move to a DM position. I have no doubt if he played as a DM since 20yo he'd be a lot better than Mikel, just because he is a better natural footballer.

I just think that all players you listed are indeed better than Mikel in passing, pace (his main weakness in defense) even not mentioning attacking which is a bonus. Also remember Mikel has zero assists, which is pretty rare specially in combination with a zero goal tally.

[OneMoSalah 8,783]

I've never said I didn't like Luiz, he is out best central defender when he's not being an idiot. You just massively overrate the value of his offensive skills. (as do many other people. Luiz is our worst finisher and worst percentage long-ball passer) and underrate players who don't make mistakes. Yes, not all teams use a pure defensive midfielder but many many still do. Anyway, Javi Martinez and Busquets are both defensive midfielders in a fairly classic sense. (Busquets has 4 goals in 150 games with maybe the best offensive teams ever) Many top Premier League teams still play with a defensive midfielder as well.(Garcia, Sandro, Lucas, Barry, etc..) Regardless of the exact sort of player, pretty much every team needs the same sort of player, that is players who move the ball well, who don't shoot much, who don't try too many fancy things, who play simple, error-free football. You can't fill your squad with players who want to shoot and wander out of position. You need what they call in basketball a "glue guy" a guy who holds your team together without putting up impressive stats or trying to do too much. Teams don't have 11 guys trying to create. You have 4 or 5 . You don't have 11 guys trying to score, you have 4 or 5 (except on set pieces).

This....

[Ainsley Harriott 2,732]

Makelele was useless going forward ,his shooting was almost as bad as Mikel's ,what a DM though .

Anyone who suggests we should compare Messi's/Drogba's win/play stats with Mikel's is clearly not of sane mind.

Lets have a look at Mikel's stats even further great pass/completion figure high 80's % .

Very good . If that is so brilliant why does that not translate into Chelsea winning more games when he plays ,bearing in mind he is excellent? This very valuable contribution must feed through to the aim ,Chelsea winning matches ,it does not and that is because slow,negative passing and not being a good defensive midfielder aka Maka does not help Chelsea win more matches than they win/draw despite us being a very succesful club ,his stats are more in line with a relegation team.

Bla bla bla bla, give it a fucking rest

[The only place to be 11,313]

That "many" people don't appreciate.

That's not what you said.

Either way, Chelsea supporters (and supporters in general) were able to 'appreciate' exactly what Claude Makelele did in the team. They knew just how important he was, yet apparently they can't do the same with Mikel.

Why is that? Maybe your premise is just wrong. Maybe you and a select few aren't blessed with a gift of being able to appreciate things 'many people' don't.

Just a thought.

[Phil Driver 503]

Bla bla bla bla, give it a fucking rest

You can do better than that ,put up that picture of your mother again,

[Phil Driver 503]

The glue guy hey. Great term . How does the glue guy glue us together so that we stick and win matches? It means nothing ,it relates to 85% safe,negative passing,that slows us down in glue,perhaps? Teams all over Europe are searching for that glue guy to turn them into winners ,nobody ever called Makelele the glue guy .

Makelele sat and did protect our defence you could not score against us at times. Mikel is not able to produce what Maka did and one other thing, Makelele was as good a passer as Mikel ,he was quicker and he saw the short first touch forward pass quicker than Mikel . This glue guy tag for Obi is starting to grow on me .

[OneMoSalah 8,783]

That's not what you said.

Either way, Chelsea supporters (and supporters in general) were able to 'appreciate' exactly what Claude Makelele did in the team. They knew just how important he was, yet apparently they can't do the same with Mikel.

Why is that? Maybe your premise is just wrong. Maybe you and a select few aren't blessed with a gift of being able to appreciate things 'many people' don't.

Just a thought.

Yes but Makelele was a bit different from Mikel in terms of quality (the guy has the defensive midfield role named the Makelele role for a reason).

A defensive midfielders game isn't exactly spectacular but as Toronto said you need guys like Mikel who play simple error-free football and are 9 times out of 10 available to receive the ball when his team mates are under pressure and fill gaps left when Luiz or Terry step into midfield or are caught out on the counter or whatever.

It was the same with Pep Guardiola at Barca when he was a player all those years ago, he played in Cryuff's dream team as it was called, his game looked the simplest and easiest to people but he held that team together when players like Michael Laudrup (who he famously told to play it simple), Rivaldo, Begiristain, Romario etc. The thing is his game was appreciated by fans, unlike Mikels it would seem. It was the same with Paul Scholes (arguably the best English midfielder of the last 20 years), who Zidane said is the best midfield player in the world years ago and a lot of Spanish players like Xavi and Iniesta have praised, who at times was underappreciated as he wasn't David Beckham or Mark Hughes or whoever else played for United. He wasn't even a holding midfielder or that but even in his late career he played a lot under Fergie as United didn't really have anyone who did the same apart from Carrick who you could say initially struggled at United when he first went there, who could do what he did.

[English Freak 456]

Yes but Makelele was a bit different from Mikel in terms of quality (the guy has the defensive midfield role named the Makelele role for a reason).

A defensive midfielders game isn't exactly spectacular but as Toronto said you need guys like Mikel who play simple error-free football and are 9 times out of 10 available to receive the ball when his team mates are under pressure and fill gaps left when Luiz or Terry step into midfield or are caught out on the counter or whatever.

It was the same with Pep Guardiola at Barca when he was a player all those years ago, he played in Cryuff's dream team as it was called, his game looked the simplest and easiest to people but he held that team together when players like Michael Laudrup (who he famously told to play it simple), Rivaldo, Begiristain, Romario etc. The thing is his game was appreciated by fans, unlike Mikels it would seem. It was the same with Paul Scholes (arguably the best English midfielder of the last 20 years), who Zidane said is the best midfield player in the world years ago and a lot of Spanish players like Xavi and Iniesta have praised, who at times was underappreciated as he wasn't David Beckham or Mark Hughes or whoever else played for United. He wasn't even a holding midfielder or that but even in his late career he played a lot under Fergie as United didn't really have anyone who did the same apart from Carrick who you could say initially struggled at United when he first went there, who could do what he did.

There have been plenty of occasions where Chelsea has been caught on the counter and Mikel is seen out of position, walking back.

As I've said a number of times, if Mikel was just more consistent with his performances, our midfield would be solid.

Mikel isn't a bad player but the lack of consistency in his performance is worrying..(maybe he needs some competition for his position?)

(The same thing can be said of David Luiz...if he can be consistent and iron out those rush of blood moments, our CB pairing would be solid)

[ZOS 580]

I've made up my mind long ago ...to me he'll never be good enough, no matter how well he plays in a single game .. and he was good in the 2nd half of the Everton game

[zolayes 14,489]

The glue guy hey. Great term . How does the glue guy glue us together so that we stick and win matches? It means nothing ,it relates to 85% safe,negative passing,that slows us down in glue,perhaps? Teams all over Europe are searching for that glue guy to turn them into winners ,nobody ever called Makelele the glue guy .

Makelele sat and did protect our defence you could not score against us at times. Mikel is not able to produce what Maka did and one other thing, Makelele was as good a passer as Mikel ,he was quicker and he saw the short first touch forward pass quicker than Mikel . This glue guy tag for Obi is starting to grow on me .

The Maka point is very relevant I think.. What he had was the ability to find the simple pass QUICKLY... This meant the transition from defence to

attack was more rapid and assisted in counter attacks. Makalele was more experienced than Mikel and possibly quicker thinking.

Sadly there arent many Makalele's around ..so for now we must do with second best ...Whoever that is will remain a topic for discussion

[CHOULO19 24,332]

Maka was the best at what he does. The holding midfielder role was made for him. Of course Mikel can't even compare! The discussion was never between Mikel and Maka, obviously since there isn't anyone as good as Maka was.

[The only place to be 11,313]

Yes but Makelele was a bit different from Mikel in terms of quality

Exactly. That's why Chelsea supporters loved Makelele despite his role being 'tough to understand or appreciate' according to certain people.

He wasn't flash but he did the dirty work efficiently and consistently. Mikel has a similar dirty job role in the team, but Chelsea supporters simply haven't taken to him in the same way because he hasn't been that dependable, reassuring presence. If he was, the Stamford Bridge faithful would absolutely adore him because we've always supported players who play in unfashionable roles, and that's something that some people simply don't understand.

[robsblubot 3,529]

Maka was the best at what he does. The holding midfielder role was made for him. Of course Mikel can't even compare! The discussion was never between Mikel and Maka, obviously since there isn't anyone as good as Maka was.

But that's the point isn't it?

As a specialist, Makalele's contribution in attack was poor, just like Mikel's (we all agree on that) - the zero assists and goals showcase that.

So, since Mikel, like Makelele, is so single-dimensional (defense only), shouldn't he be as good as Makelele was to be good enough?!