Mikel John Obi

[manpe 10,861]

It's a point I first raised so you're probably addressing me.

The question I asked was whether he tried to block it, whether his head moved towards it. It's a recurring point about his effort and commitment to the cause. I disagree with your characterisation of it and think he actually moves away from the ball and Torres does the same.

I don't know, to me it looks like he only turned his shoulder to protect his face. Torres jumped for the ball, how could he have moved away from it?

[CHOULO19 24,332]

First off, mate, I didn't attempt to start a Kalou debate. I was just throwing in his name because he was the best example of a player staying a long time at a club without being a great player. Though, I am agree with you, he was a good squad player. And fair enough about Paulo Ferreira.

But now, the examples regarding Wes Brown and John O'Shea are quite relevant, since the three players played more or less the same amount of games within a long period at one club. Are the two ex Manchester players are anything special ? Nah, they were just average. It's just that they were good squad-players and that they were surrounded by very good players. Hell, even Victor Valdes is another example : an average goalkeeper but has been the starter for Barcelona for many years.

To reply to these questions of yours :

1) How come we have been so successful with him regularly in our lineup? 2) And why was he never replaced when we all know we had the financial power to go for almost any player in the world?

I think I had partly answered it in my last post in this thread, but never mind. Mikel was surrounded by world-class players throughout nearly all of his career here. At first, in the back, he had what was arguably the best center-back pairing in the world : Terry-Carvalho. Then it was Terry-Alex. In the midfield, he played along side world-class players : Essien, Lampard, Ballack. You can also mention Ashley Cole who was the best left-back in the world.

So, how comes we have been so successful despite having him in our line-up ? The answer is pretty simple : because Chelsea was full of world-class and great players. And, how comes he had never been replaced ? Simply because there were no points to !!! An elite team doesn't need to have world-class players at every position. We never replaced him because he was merely good enough for what we were asking him. In the midfield he was along side players such as Lampard, Ballack and Essien, while at the back there were players such as Carvalho, Terry, Alex and Cole. This fact means that he didn't have to boss the midfield. That's why all of our managers kept selected him. Because he was perfectly fine for what he were asked. Just as Wes Brown, John O'shea and Victor Valdes.

Now things have changed. Our team is no longer filled-up with world-class players. Our defense is more than shaky, and our central midfield is more than average. That means that we are in need of someone who can boss the midfield ! Mikel has no longer the aforementioned players to make the midfield function. He is no longer the underling. He is no longer the guy there only to assist big guys in their jobs. He has no longer the second role.

He needs to be the midfield chief. And this is precisely what, we people, don't think he has able to do.

Finally, a good intelligent argument!

First of, I was not criticizing you for bringing up Kalou, just saying that I can't go into detail in the debate so we don't go off topic.

About the first part, although Brown and O'Shea were hardly 'starters' for utd, especially in their latter years, but I can't really argue (intelligently) against some of the other points you made. I'll concede that you proved that Mikel could have been average or below and he would still have been a starter and that we could still have won everything we did. Fair enough, but the key word there is "could". I think you'll agree that your post did not by any means prove that he was average.

I admit I go over board defending Mikel because almost everyone goes over board bashing him, but I honestly don't think it's fair to call Mikel average. I'll be the first to admit that he lacks a bit of mobility and his reaction to the game is always a bit slow. But having said that, Mikel, on the other hand, is the best passer in the league for the past 4-5 seasons. No midfielder has played more passes than him or had a higher accuracy (Scholes beat him in a couple of seasons but he's semi-retired now). He also has one of the best ball retention skills in the league; he can keep the ball under immense pressure. He is also excellent at closing passing angles and forcing opponents to play the difficult ball. This may not be glamorous, but I think it helps the team immensely.

I know it's not saying much because of the lack of quality in this position atm, but I think it is fair to say the Mikel is in the top 3 DMs in the league.

As for him "helping the big boys", that's unfair as well. Mikel was a key player in both of our 09-10 and 11-12 seasons. We could not have won those trophies without him. Go back to Carlo's first season and watch especially the matches against the "big four" when we won all 6 games scoring 13 and only conceding once. Mikel was immense in all of them. He was also our best man in Munich last season.

Mikel is not a world beater, I never claimed otherwise, but he's a good player, currently one of our better ones. We have much more pressing issues in our squad. The bashing he constantly gets by some is ridiculous, imo. That's why I go over the top defending him.

[The only place to be 11,313]

Finally, a good intelligent argument!

Is this supposed to mean that other supporters of this club don't make intelligent arguments about him?

Which members are you talking about specifically?

[juko 19]

you lol

Is this supposed to mean that other supporters of this club don't make intelligent arguments about him?

Which members are you talking about specifically?

[The only place to be 11,313]

But having said that, Mikel, on the other hand, is the best passer in the league for the past 4-5 seasons.

He had 84% completion rate against Southampton yet a terrible game - don't watch whoscored, watch the games.

but I think it is fair to say the Mikel is in the top 3 DMs in the league.

Mikel is not a world beater, I never claimed otherwise,

[didierforever 7,349]

Mikel is not a world beater, I never claimed otherwise, but he's a good player, currently one of our better ones. We have much more pressing issues in our squad. The bashing he constantly gets by some is ridiculous, imo. That's why I go over the top defending him.

THIS!!!

[juko 19]

if you don't like him, who could remplace him lol. give me a guy who is so strong and give so many balls.

[juko 19]

and wins so many balls sorry

[CHOULO19 24,332]

Is this supposed to mean that other supporters of this club don't make intelligent arguments about him?

Which members are you talking about specifically?

Yes this thread has been lacking a lot of intelligence in the past dozen pages, including posts defending Mikel by myself because the discussion had turned into a cat fight.

He had 84% completion rate against Southampton yet a terrible game - don't watch whoscored, watch the games.

And we're back to the lack of intelligence....but thank you for taking a couple of sentences in my post completely out of context

[The only place to be 11,313]

Yes this thread has been lacking a lot of intelligence in the past dozen pages, including posts defending Mikel by myself because the discussion had turned into a cat fight.

And we're back to the lack of intelligence....but thank you for taking a couple of sentences in my post completely out of context

You're the one who admitted going over the top in defending him. I've actually agreed with the point about people being too vociferous in criticising him or too sycophantic in defending him.

He's a decent player but he's not someone we can rely on because he's inconsistent. The last two games demonstrated that perfectly. Put great players around him against opposition that won't put pressure on him and he has a place in the squad. But we need a LEADER in that position and that isn't him I'm afraid.

BTW, you admitted you didn't watch the game against Southampton. Maybe you need to stop going over the top in defending him and focus on what's best for this club.

[BlueLyon 9,359]

Lovely to see Mikel haters moan next year when he will be still wearing the sexy Chelsea shirt.

One is to say that Capoue, Chalobah etc are all better yet they havent played single game for Chelsea first team, the other is the truth that Mikel is just doing the job here.

What do you expect? He is a fucking DM. Not a striker to score, not CAM to do fancy passes and dribbles and not a fucking winger to run up and down the pitch. He is a DM that sits im front of defence and keeps things tiddy. He needs proper pivot pair to work at his best. There are so many comments like he is bad because he doesnt do a Ronaldinho and make woau moments. He isnt as versatile as Toure, De Rossi etc. But they havent won CL. Mikel did. And he was key part of that game vs Barca and Bayern. He did that and here is your thanks to him. Bravo!

How the fuck will we operate good as a club and attract people if we cant even support our players? I understand for Torres or Rafa. But Mikel?

AND WHAT IS THE MOST FUNNY THING IS THAT PEOPLE SAY CAPOUE IS BETTER 100 TIMES THAN MIKEL WHILE CAPOUE NEVER EVEN PLAYED IN CL OR ANY BIG COMPETITION. You expect signing Capoue or someone and then we will have super midfield king who will won exactly 5 tackles and 5 interceptions per game according to whoscored. Nice.

Mikel wasnt world class, but neither was the rest of team. We are in mess and you cant expect our players will be superb this season if we are in transition period...give team time and then we will talk.

[The only place to be 11,313]

Lovely to see Mikel haters moan next year when he will be still wearing the sexy Chelsea shirt.

Nobody here hates him. It's a ridiculously stupid thing to say because Chelsea supporters don't hate their players.

Learn that.

One is to say that Capoue, Chalobah etc are all better yet they havent played single game for Chelsea first team, the other is the truth that Mikel is just doing the job here.

I've said Chalobah is better and i base that not just on his technical skills, but his intangibles (that means his mentality and personality, okay?).

What do you expect? He is a fucking DM. Not a striker to score, not CAM to do fancy passes and dribbles and not a fucking winger to run up and down the pitch. He is a DM that sits im front of defence and keeps things tiddy.

Yes, we know what he's supposed to do.

He needs proper pivot pair to work at his best. There are so many comments like he is bad because he doesnt do a Ronaldinho and make woau moments.

Actually no-one has said that. No-one wants him to play like Ronaldinho, no-one expects him to.

Okay?

He isnt as versatile as Toure, De Rossi etc. But they havent won CL. Mikel did. And he was key part of that game vs Barca and Bayern. He did that and here is your thanks to him. Bravo!

So did Kalou. So has Wes Brown. (De Rossi won the World Cup by the way, so he can't be that bad).

How the fuck will we operate good as a club and attract people if we cant even support our players? I understand for Torres or Rafa. But Mikel?

We do support our players.

AND WHAT IS THE MOST FUNNY THING IS THAT PEOPLE SAY CAPOUE IS BETTER 100 TIMES THAN MIKEL WHILE CAPOUE NEVER EVEN PLAYED IN CL OR ANY BIG COMPETITION. You expect signing Capoue or someone and then we will have super midfield king who will won exactly 5 tackles and 5 interceptions per game according to whoscored. Nice.

I don't think Capoue is a better player, and let's not forget that he lost his French national squad spot to Pogba, a player who was just 19 at the start of the season.

PS. is this thread sponsored by whoscored.com?

[CHOULO19 24,332]

You're the one who admitted going over the top in defending him. I've actually agreed with the point about people being too vociferous in criticising him or too sycophantic in defending him.

He's a decent player but he's not someone we can rely on because he's inconsistent. The last two games demonstrated that perfectly. Put great players around him against opposition that won't put pressure on him and he has a place in the squad. But we need a LEADER in that position and that isn't him I'm afraid.

BTW, you admitted you didn't watch the game against Southampton. Maybe you need to stop going over the top in defending him and focus on what's best for this club.

Disagree with the first part for reasons I've mentioned countless times, but regarding the bolded part, I never defended his performance in the Southampton game, but I will not stop posting my opinion just because I missed one match.

[The only place to be 11,313]

Disagree with the first part for reasons I've mentioned countless times, but regarding the bolded part, I never defended his performance in the Southampton game, but I will not stop posting my opinion just because I missed one match.

Why would you?

It's not like matches have any bearing on your opinion of him.

[GodZola 630]

find a damn post where I have given mikel "a god like status"... normally i totally stay away from the mikel thread due to its absolute ridiculousness but the amount of crap written about mikel over the past 2 matches made me comment. if u dont believe it, have a long read of this thread. so I AM NO HYPOCRITE.

so by your account i am to believe that team compostion would and should have no affect on a player's performance. when mikel plays with lamps he is the aggressor (in a sort of way), as seen in the southampton match when mikel tried pressing higher up the pitch but failed miserably. as compared to today when he got to play to his strong point which is being a proper shield to the back 4. people on this forum have claimed torres to be a god 2 years ago, so probably u should believe that too if u believe mikel-rambo dont play well together. so it is upto u to decide what is bullshit because i should enlighten u that this is a forum where different people with different thought processes comment on almost everythin about this club and most of those opinions are bound to be conflicting.

Your post is highly confusing stating things that I have not actually posted & you have lost me on some of it but I will do my best to reply.

So by your own admission you 'totally stay away from the Mikel thread' yet take it upon urself to call people hypocrites? So its all well & dandy for you to do that without reading many members post because most are stating he is niether good or bad & give clear transparent reasons why they have their reservations so you had no right to post that especially when you haven't even read their comments. I didn't call you a hypocrite, I merely asked you a question which you haven't answered - there's a huge difference!!! So wind your neck in.

Unless I was reading your previous post wrong I'm pretty sure you posted 'god like status' silly me must be going senile?!

Don't quote bollocks, you are putting different meanings to what i actually posted, I said good players perform in shit teams meaning that Mikel should not need anyone to make him perform consistently, first and foremost he has to do his job which on Saturday he didnt & that is why members gave him some stick, whether you think that is 'ridiculous' is your opinion but other members have the right to post on his showing. Good players perform well in different positions, different formations & can adapt quickly to instructions - people should not use these as excuses, he will get credit from me when he performs well, like today!!! I & others will also get off his back when one game turns in 10 then 20 not 1 in 5 or 2 in 7.

Again I never said he doesn't perform with Rami, i said I've read other members views he doesn't - a big difference, although I'm sure there are games that they didn't play well together. As for Mikel providing a 'shield' for the back four, well I swore I saw him further up the pitch today (especially in the first half) even having a couple of attempts at goal?