🇮🇹 Jorginho

[Spike 12,049]

13 hours ago, Puliiszola said:

Lol

We have as many wins in 11 games (9wins) when jorginho is not starting to 9 wins in 24 games that he has started in PL this season.

'bad game occasionally' got to be one biased opinions ever with literally no concrete logic or stat to support it.

That isn't logical or even a worthwhile statistic because it ignores nearly every other fundamental influence on the sport, to look at the sport in such a simple manner is reductive, pointless, and ultimately signals a lack of critical thinking. That is just cause-effect with conjecture. A player can have a good game in a loss, and a bad game in a win. A team sport is typically won and lost through the team, not one player; ergo the only bias here is coming from you.

The information you've completely ignored:

• The other ten Chelsea players and subs
• The eleven opposition plus subs
• Formation and approach of both teams
• Chelsea's form
• Opponet's form
• injuries
• fitness

'bUt JoRgiNho PlaYs whEN teAM lOSes' is an argument you should be ashamed of.

[Puliiszola 519]

34 minutes ago, Spike said:

That isn't logical or even a worthwhile statistic because it ignores nearly every other fundamental influence on the sport, to look at the sport in such a simple manner is reductive, pointless, and ultimately signals a lack of critical thinking. That is just cause-effect with conjecture. A player can have a good game in a loss, and a bad game in a win. A team sport is typically won and lost through the team, not one player; ergo the only bias here is coming from you.

The information you've completely ignored:

'bUt JoRgiNho PlaYs whEN teAM lOSes' is an argument you should be ashamed of.

I think there is a fundamental lack of understanding. The point is "the team loses when jorginho plays". Hence the cause and effect. 

So according to you,

1. The other 10 players play better when jorginho does not start

2. The eleven opposition plus subs start playing better when he does not start

3. Our form suddenly dips and then peaks to accomodate jorginho

Well these are some eye opening relevations.

Stop trying to ignore the main point and fact in front of you. Jorginho makes us weaker. He plays the most pivotal role in any football club - a DM. The link between the defence, mid and attack. 

He is the one player that the opposition continuously attack as they know they will get purchase from it. His lack of defensive solidarity makes our already weak defense and GK, look poorer. 

Your point of it all being just random chance and co-incidence or even "form" would have been acceptable if jorginho had had an injury and we had played those 11 games at a stretch. But we have not. These 11 games are spread across the season to accomodate his susoensions, couple of games through injury and some due to tactical exclusions. So "chance" or "form" or "luck" and trivial arguments like "opposition's" go out of the window. Look at the wins we have had - city, spurs, Everton. 

So no, Its not a "mere co-incidence". Trying to justify this very apparent link between our poor results and jorginho's inclusion is what is simplistic thinking and denial. 

I am just glad that FL sees it that way, and jorginho is on his way out. His Chelsea career is probably a thing that he and us fans can't wait to forget.

[Spike 12,049]

28 minutes ago, Puliiszola said:

I think there is a fundamental lack of understanding. The point is "the team loses when jorginho plays". Hence the cause and effect. No misunderstanding at all, I actually said that in my post. But all you've mentioned is effect and cause without context. I could say 'Chelsea lose when air pressure is below average' and if the information is condusive that proves my point right? No, it is just conjecture and reducing cause and effect to a rudimentary form. It is never so simple and if it were, I'm positive someone like Frank Lampard would have figured it out many times before you.

So according to you, No actually, I never said any of that nonsense.

1. The other 10 players play better when jorginho does not start There is no proof, only conjecture, just because a team *wins* doesn't mean they've *played better*

2. The eleven opposition plus subs start playing better when he does not start Again more conjecture, this isn't a logical conclusion. 

3. Our form suddenly dips and then peaks to accomodate jorginho That is the only factor?

Well these are some eye opening relevations.

Stop trying to ignore the main point and fact in front of you. Jorginho makes us weaker. Does he though? He plays the most pivotal role in any football club - a DM. That i The link between the defence, mid and attack. That is a complete exaggeration, a person could make several arguments for near any position on the field, I'd even argue that Jorginho isn't even a defensive midfielder because his duties aren't simply defensive in nature.

He is the one player that the opposition continuously attack as they know they will get purchase from it.Do they now? I suppose I'll take your word for that, even if it is an assumption, I suppose you've read the opposition instructions His lack of defensive solidarity Since when was he a bad defender? makes our already weak defense and GK, look poorer. 

Your point of it all being just random chance Never once mentioned random chance and co-incidence or even "form" Why is form in quotations, does form not exist?  would have been acceptable if jorginho had had an injury and we had played those 11 games at a stretch. But we have not. These 11 games are spread across the season to accomodate his susoensions, couple of games through injury You just said he wasn't injured though and some due to tactical exclusions. So "chance" or "form" or "luck" More quotes? and trivial arguments like "opposition's" go out of the window. Look at the wins we have had - city, spurs, Everton. City, spurs, everton... Is that even an argument? Not really it is just information without context, and content sans context means nothing. 

So no, Its not a "mere co-incidence". Against what is up with the quotation marks? Who are you quoting? Trying to justify this very apparent link between our poor results and jorginho's inclusion is what is simplistic thinking and denial. 
So no, it is not a mere coincidence. Trying to justify this very apparent link between our good results and Jorginho's exclusion is simplistic thinking and denial. 

I am just glad that FL sees it that way, and jorginho is on his way out. Who told you that!? His Chelsea career is probably a thing that he and us fans can't wait to forget.

 

[DDA 9,941]

Ahh fuck around. My brain can't handle these kind of posts ^^^^

My intellect only allows for the processing of words such as, win, loss, fuck, shyte or fuming. 

 

[Spike 12,049]

6 minutes ago, DDA said:

Ahh fuck around. My brain can't handle these kind of posts ^^^^

My intellect only allows for the processing of words such as, win, loss, fuck, shyte or fuming. 

 

How about this 'Win or loss, Puliszola's logic is shyte'. It doesn't even matter if Jorginho is a good player or not because the means of coming to that conclusion are rubbish.

[Puliiszola 519]

9 minutes ago, Spike said:

 

This is some weird way to reply, but I will try to make whatever sense I can out of it (not that the previous posts made any)

"Who told you that!?"

Umm the fact that he was only started after kante, kova and Gilmour were all injured. Pretty self explanatory, unless someone wants to continue being in denial.

 

"City, spurs, everton... Is that even an argument? Not really it is just information without context, and content sans context means nothing. "

Is it not an argument? You raised a point regarding the oppositions and these are top clubs who we beat despite jorginho not playing. Also checked. Add arsenal to that list. So that's 4 top teams in 9 wins. Again, pretty evident and self explanatory of why these names are being taken.

"You just said he wasn't injured though "

No. I said he was not injured for a long term, which would have made things like form a valid argument. But like I very well explained that these games were soread across the season so form is a moot argument.

"That is a complete exaggeration, a person could make several arguments for near any position on the field, I'd even argue that Jorginho isn't even a defensive midfielder because his duties aren't simply defensive in nature."

Lol and here we were all thinking he plays as a defensive midfielder. Everything is clear now. Jorginho is absolved. 😂

"There is no proof, only conjecture, just because a team *wins* doesn't mean they've *played better*"

Never made a point of winning means played better. Anyways, I am sure such conjectures would be happening with many players, right? We have 35 games, 18 wins and 11 losses. I would love such "conjectures" with several more of our players who have either been excluded or included for atleast 10 games (so as to have a decent sample size) and which gives such drastic results and differences between win% (37.5% vs 81%). Should be pretty easy, right?

[Puliiszola 519]

5 minutes ago, Spike said:

How about this 'Win or loss, Puliszola's logic is shyte'. It doesn't even matter if Jorginho is a good player or not because the means of coming to that conclusion are rubbish.

Aah. More gibberish.

[Rapkun 668]

I'll try and make it as simple as possible. Frank and other people including myself don't fancy Jorginho because he's a defensive liability playing infront of the defense and doesn't create enough to compensate for his shortcomings. On top of that, he can only play in that one position which makes him a very limited player in fuction and output. Fabregas was just as bad but he created chances at will.

[Special Juan 28,141]

He's regressed, and we need to sell.

[OneMoSalah 8,886]

15 minutes ago, Special Juan said:

He's regressed, and we need to sell.

Maybe he wasnt great or hasnt been in games since the restart but I think it is a similar situation to that period under Sarri during the winter. Everything was so slow today infront of him and there wasnt any real clever movement from the attacking players or Ruben/Ross when he came on (although he did grt a bit higher up more frequently than Ruben) to get in behind Norwich or between the lines.

There didnt seem to be any real idea of how to break them down bar keep moving the ball from side to side and rely on the fullbacks crossing, which they did provide some half decent crosses that weren't taken advantage of but again its predictable and pointless if your not going to finish those chances or at least flood the box a bit more.

Kovacic was steady enough in the middle tonight too but think he could have done more to take some of their MF players out of the game by asking for the ball off the CBs or Jorginho and spinning anyone tryna put him under pressure, he has done it in phases and his ability to retain the ball in tight areas indicates he should be looking to do it more frequently. Think we also missed Mason as well if I am perfectly honest but he has played a lot this season so can see why Frank maybe didnt take him on. 
 

I really get the impression Frank doesnt fancy Jorginho though. He would much prefer Ngolo or Billy there.

[Magic Lamps 11,692]

Jorginho is the best player in the world when it comes to reliable slowing the game down and keeping the ball circulating ponderously between him and our defenders.Was helpful for keeping it at 1-0 today on both ends but you can see why Lamps does not fancy him. I am not a Gilmour fan buthe passes it with more urgency and sees spaces that Jorginho doesnt or is too cautious to use.

[Tomo 21,751]

He dropped between the two CB's today whenever they found they're passing options cut off which is one of the reasons i'm pro regista and anti "sitting DM".

It may seem simple but without him doing that the CB boots it to nowhere or worse overcomplicates things and gives a dangerous turnover and we miss that sort of straight forward recycling of possession with Kante playing there.

[Magic Lamps 11,692]

Just now, Tomo said:

He dropped between the two CB's today whenever they found they're passing options cut off which is one of the reasons i'm pro regista and anti "sitting DM".

It may seem simple but without him doing that the CB boots it to nowhere or worse overcomplicates things and gives a dangerous turnover and we miss that sort of straight forward recycling of possession with Kante playing there.

But it is of no use when he takes ages on the ball and just passes it sideways or back to the keeper. Jorginho always takes the safe option and is almost never creative.

[Tomo 21,751]

1 minute ago, Magic Lamps said:

But it is of no use when he takes ages on the ball and just passes it sideways or back to the keeper. Jorginho always takes the safe option and is almost never creative.

It is use if he recieves the ball from a player under pressure and in turn finds a player who isn't. Sideways and backwards is a much preferable alternative to losing possession which gets lost with this team at times.

[OneMoSalah 8,886]

37 minutes ago, Tomo said:

It is use if he recieves the ball from a player under pressure and in turn finds a player who isn't. Sideways and backwards is a much preferable alternative to losing possession which gets lost with this team at times.

Exactly.

Also he isn’t just limited to going sideways and backwards but the difference in terms of the options we had when players had the ball in terms of passing options from earlier in the season to now is a big difference.

You cannot always pass forward if the options have been shut off or there aren’t as many as there could be but people seem to think that Jorginho is usually always the reason as to why.... Rodri at City very much does a similar job but they’ve got the players who will move off the ball into clever pockets or run in behind and create problems for others as well as creating space where you see the likes of De Bruyne or Silva pick it up and have real time in these sort of half spaces. Jorginho is never going to get 10 assists a season for instance that isnt why he plays there. He controls the game and if our other midfielders/attackers were more productive this wouldn’t be an issue. Same with Rodri at City although his role is slightly different but their fans wouldn’t dare focus on ‘he isnt creative’ enough because there are others there to do that. 

Also tonight I was impressed by little things I seen from Todd Cantwell, most times he received the ball he was aware of if he was marked tightly and always was shaping or opening his body so he could go forward with it into space or an opening. It may only seem like a little thing but that is what I used to like about Barkley when he broke through at Everton. Kovacic is capable of it too.

There is more problems than just Jorginho in this team. The lack of urgency and movement when we get up the pitch is alarming at times, as well as the finishing.

1 hour ago, Magic Lamps said:

But it is of no use when he takes ages on the ball and just passes it sideways or back to the keeper. Jorginho always takes the safe option and is almost never creative.

Whats he meant to do if he gets it standing around the middle of his own half? Punt it 50 or 60 metres in behind a defence to Giroud who very rarely runs in behind teams as his strength is playing to his feet and getting guys closer to him to play off that? Or Willian who again prefers to come short? I wouldnt say he plays it safe but when he has to he does yes but just look at the difference from the start of the season to now. We had more willing runners and more unpredictability in attack, now we really dont for whatever reason (same as what Sarri did perhaps, try and keep more men in better positions so we are more stable if we lose it?).

I mean If Pulisic doesnt do anything or end up on the end of a low centre/cross in the box from Azpi or Alonso or Giroud doesn’t score from a ball across the 6 yard box, where else is the goals going to come from? The bulk of our chances were centres from our fullbacks, some which were into promising areas, or from corners. 

[NikkiCFC 8,334]

6 hours ago, Puliiszola said:

I would love such "conjectures" with several more of our players who have either been excluded or included for atleast 10 games (so as to have a decent sample size) and which gives such drastic results and differences between win% (37.5% vs 81%). Should be pretty easy, right?

Our only loss without Kante this season is SU the other day. 

Alonso started just one of our 11 losses this season (West Ham).

Similar with Barkley. Big difference when he is starting.

I am speaking only about PL. These three players have bigger differences in percentage of wins  than Jorginho.

Conclusion Alonso and Barkley are best Chelsea players and Kante worst?

[bohops 7]

12 hours ago, NikkiCFC said:

Our only loss without Kante this season is SU the other day. 

Alonso started just one of our 11 losses this season (West Ham).

Similar with Barkley. Big difference when he is starting.

I am speaking only about PL. These three players have bigger differences in percentage of wins  than Jorginho.

Conclusion Alonso and Barkley are best Chelsea players and Kante worst?

Barkley is a passage, a goal and/or assist on occasions doesn't change that

[communicate 2,703]

On 7/15/2020 at 6:05 AM, Tomo said:

It is use if he recieves the ball from a player under pressure and in turn finds a player who isn't. Sideways and backwards is a much preferable alternative to losing possession which gets lost with this team at times.

You are right Tomo, jorginho is very2 good at keeping possession. IMO better than kante and Gilmour. The problem is, he is such a liability defensively that he need to offer more than ball possession. I am not asking for long ball behind defensive line, that is not possible since his passing range is not great but I want much more between the line passing. 

It is similar to cesc and pirlo. Both are unathletic but both offer so much offensively that you are willing to compensate. 

[NikkiCFC 8,334]

Fuck off. Give us money.

[killer1257 3,282]

Fuck off. Give us money.

I do not think they have the money for Jorgi

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