🇫🇷 N'Golo Kante

[Jase 43,479]

3 hours ago, OneMoSalah said:

Or drop Mount and play Kovacic as a 10? Even use Pedro and play Willian as a 10?

For me, Newcastle were always gonna play on the counter so why wouldnt you put Kante in whos athletisicm and recoverys could be very helpful. Kovacic has shown an increasing attacking input and his ability to manoeuvre in tight spaces could of been helpful closer in more advanced positions closer to Tammy than the deeper position he normally plays in a game like this where teams will set up to frustrate us. Same with Willian and use Pedro on the sides where he runs in behind or always finds himself in and around the box... almost as if Mount is undroppable just now despite doing little.

People keep pointing at Kantes inclusion but I would have him ahead of Mount regardless of opposition right now.

Sure but Kante isn't in the XI only for defensive purposes, is he? He has been tasked to do both sides of the job and we all know his deficiencies going forward, which was a huge problem yesterday because Newcastle only bothered about defending. If it was any of the Big 6, Wolves, Sheffield United etc, then sure, play Kante. But it was Newcastle, who has been bloody parking the bus all season under Steve Bruce and they were barely able to string together any proper counter attacks. We have made it work before without Kante in the XI in the first half of the season and won games comfortably, notably against defensive sides. So, I'm not sure why Kante is needed all of a sudden in such games. Kovacic should have started instead of Kante OR Kante should have been subbed off for Batshuayi instead and go 2 up front instead of sticking with like-for-like changes/system late on.

[Vesper 30,224]

 

[Vesper 30,224]

self delete

[Styl1994 188]

5 minutes ago, Vesper said:

General questions

IF we lose all of the following 10 games

do you support Lampard being sacked?

do you think he will be sacked if we do lose all 10?

if not

how many of the ten would he have to lose to get sacked and have you support this?

again, this also assumes we win every other game not listed

it could be even worse

I am NOT predicting we lose all of these btw

simply asking where the breaking point would be

we also could win some of these are still drop other games against shit teams (like we have been doing)

If we come through this run still in the top four I think we will make it.

[Jase 43,479]

11 minutes ago, Vesper said:

General questions

IF we lose all of the following 10 games

do you support Lampard being sacked?

do you think he will be sacked if we do lose all 10?

if not

how many of the ten would he have to lose to get sacked and have you support this?

again, this also assumes we win every other game not listed

it could be even worse

I am NOT predicting we lose all of these btw

simply asking where the breaking point would be

we also could win some of these are still drop other games against shit teams (like we have been doing)

Erm, wrong thread? 

[Vesper 30,224]

1 minute ago, Styl1994 said:

If we come through this run still in the top four I think we will make it.

but what is the breaking point (assuming we do not make top 4?)

obviously if we lose them all (the listed league ones, or lose all but 1 or even maybe 2 (especially if the 1 or 2 wins are against Sheffield United and or Wolves), we are not making top 4, even if we win the rest of the non listed games, and winning all of those non listed is so so not guaranteed either)

we cannot drop 21 or 24 points from those listed league games and make top 4, I simply do not see how especially if we have cockups versus some other shit teams

that is my question

[Vesper 30,224]

2 minutes ago, Jason said:

Erm, wrong thread? 

perhaps,

let me post it in the Super Frank thread

[Vesper 30,224]

6 minutes ago, Jason said:

Erm, wrong thread? 

done and self-deleted in this thread

[Jase 43,479]

Whisper it, but should Chelsea sell N’Golo Kante?

https://theathletic.com/1543014/2020/01/19/ngolo-kante-transfer-chelsea-real-madrid/

There are many big decisions Chelsea have to make in the transfer market in 2020, but few would have thought selling N’Golo Kante might be one of them.

After another ineffective outing in the disappointing 1-0 loss at Newcastle, the France international’s form is becoming something to debate.

Ask any Chelsea supporter at the start of the season to name the one player the club can’t afford to lose and Kante’s name would have been clear at the top of the list.

When The Athletic revealed back in September that Real Madrid had set their sights on signing the World Cup winner next summer, the level of outcry was noticeable.

However, it is a measure of how the campaign has gone thus far for Kante that there is a growing section of the Chelsea fanbase who might no longer be quite so opposed to the idea.

As David Chidgey from the Chelsea Fancast confirms: “I have seen and heard witterings about this among Chelsea fans. There is a strain of thought that we have been more cohesive in midfield when he’s not been playing — Mason Mount, Mateo Kovacic and Jorginho seem to play well together in particular. 

“There is the lingering question over what is his best position. But I don’t subscribe to that and he is Chelsea’s only world-class player.

“Of course he shouldn’t be sold. Why sell a world-class player? It’s nonsense. People are very quick to judge these days.”

It is understandable if people reading this dismiss the notion straight away too, but there are factors that make the possibility not as ridiculous as it may seem.

This is Kante’s fourth season at Stamford Bridge and his influence on the team has never been lower. There have been mitigating factors. A series of niggling knee, ankle and hamstring injuries has meant his outing at Newcastle was only his 13th start in 23 Premier League games. He has also featured in only half of the club’s Champions League fixtures.

But when he has been fit to take to the pitch, the amount of memorable displays people are accustomed to have been few and far between.

The two matches against Liverpool, in the UEFA Super Cup Final and the Premier League, was Kante at his very best. In contrast, the meek showing during the 3-1 loss at Everton was alarming and Newcastle wasn’t much better.

A look at some of the key statistics provided by Opta does provide some evidence of decline, which may come as a surprise.

Obviously one has to bear in mind 2019-20 is far from complete, but the below does show a pattern. Going through his seasons at Chelsea in chronological order, the numbers are as follows:

In 2016-17, he was involved in 377 duels and won 52 per cent of them; in 2017-18 there were 370 duels (again won 52 per cent); in 2018-19 the total dropped to 346 (won 42 per cent) and so far it’s 176 (won just 40 per cent).

The theme continues. Tackles go like this: 127 in 2016-17 (65 per cent success rate), 113 in 2017-18 (68 per cent success rate), 74 in 2018-19 (55 per cent success rate) and currently 34 (47 per cent success rate).

When it comes to interceptions Opta reads 82, 85, 44 and 34 respectively and recoveries number 275, 312, 238 and 117.

One of the explanations for the drop off in these statistics over the past 18 months can of course be explained by his change of position, to the right of a midfield three rather than patrolling in front of the back four, as his touch map against Newcastle below shows.

Lampard decided to maintain Maurizio Sarri’s decision to play the France international further forward and it continues to have mixed results.

Against teams who set up defensively as Newcastle did at St James’s Park, Kante is hardly the kind of player who is going to provide an incisive through ball for striker Tammy Abraham.

His pass map against Newcastle shows his successful passes, in black, and his failed ones, in yellow. It is clear that while his ball retention is good, he plays few telling forward passes in the final third.

His speed can pose a threat, as he showed in the 34th minute when Reece James played a through ball behind the home defence and Kante’s shot was saved at the near post by Martin Dubravka.

Yet in the 3-0 victory over similar obstinate opponents in Burnley the week before, Lampard opted to play the more creative Ross Barkley instead of the injured Kante and Chelsea looked far more threatening because of it.

But as Lampard admitted at the time: “The N’Golo one is tough, I’m not going to say I’m going to drop him many times because that would be mad because we know what he is. 

“Sometimes we can mix around that midfield and try to find the right combination between the three. They are difficult but nice choices.”

Barkley did eventually enter the fray in the second half against Newcastle, although it was for the equally ineffective Mount. It was noticeable how the former Everton star’s presence did improve things, albeit to no avail.

There are other factors to consider regarding Kante’s future too. He turns 29 in March and while over three years remain on his current deal, if either party wanted to go their separate ways, now is the time.

With Chelsea planning to make bids for some of Europe’s most wanted players — Borussia Dortmund forward Jadon Sancho and Leipzig striker Timo Werner — plus the expensive Leicester City left back Ben Chilwell in the summer, they could certainly do with some more funds.

The club’s transfer kitty will be boosted by around £147 million from the sales of Hazard and Alvaro Morata, but that will only get the club so far in the bidding process. Sancho alone could be worth that sum.

And who knows what Kante’s ambitions are? If Chelsea are honest with themselves, it could take a while before they’re challenging for the Premier League and Champions League again, whereas Real Madrid tend to be in contention on an annual basis.

The former Chelsea winger Pat Nevin, who was in the stands watching Kante in action on Saturday evening in his role as a TV pundit, believes it is a subject worthy of discussion.

He tells The Athletic: “I can understand why people are asking the question. Chelsea are pretty well-served in the midfield area.

“Kante is picking up more injuries now. The money you can get now from selling him to one of the bigger clubs would be quite astronomical.

“I would argue he needs to stay from more of a football point of view — he is more than just a holding player now. He breaks play up higher up the field and he is brilliant at it.

“But is that offset though from the financial side of things and how you can spend the money? If he stays for a few more years, his value is negligible in comparison. It must be a temptation for the club to sell because of the quality of players coming through.

“From his point of view, if you’re going to make a move to a big club you are reaching that point of now or never.

“Chelsea lost Hazard last summer and of course they’ve missed him. But every team in the world moves on — Real Madrid had to move on after Cristiano Ronaldo left. If Kante leaves it will cause headlines, you would miss certain things. Would Chelsea survive? Of course.

“Do I think Chelsea would prosper more with him still around for a few more years? Yes. He would help the young players.”

Intriguingly, Chelsea have been looking at a younger central midfielder with the ability to play in a similar role to Kante in Boubakary Soumare.

The Lille midfielder is nine years younger than the Chelsea man and clearly has a lot to learn. And yet he has been scouted by a number of top clubs including Real Madrid and Manchester United so Lampard might have to act fast.

It is understood both the player and his club want to see out the rest of the season before moving elsewhere and it would take a seismic offer to change minds.

Sourmare’s fee wouldn’t be as much as Kante would command though. It would still be quite a gamble on Chelsea’s part.

“It’s no coincidence Chelsea, Leicester and France have all done well over the last four years because they’ve had a player like him,” says Chidgey.

“I think the real issue is one of absolute exhaustion. The guy hasn’t had a break for four years and where he plays requires a lot of energy. He is a selfless individual and once you get one injury, players tend to pick up others.

“But nobody is bigger than the club. Chelsea is a business and if they think they can get top dollar for him now, there is an argument to cash in. I can see the sense in it.

“We relied on Hazard more than Kante and he left. Others have stepped up after Hazard went. You move on, it’s the cycle. We will survive if Kante goes, even though I don’t want that to happen.”

The fact it’s even being talked about at Chelsea is noteworthy in itself.

[Vesper 30,224]

52 minutes ago, Jason said:

Whisper it, but should Chelsea sell N’Golo Kante?

https://theathletic.com/1543014/2020/01/19/ngolo-kante-transfer-chelsea-real-madrid/

 

 

[OneMoSalah 8,886]

8 hours ago, Jason said:

Sure but Kante isn't in the XI only for defensive purposes, is he? He has been tasked to do both sides of the job and we all know his deficiencies going forward, which was a huge problem yesterday because Newcastle only bothered about defending. If it was any of the Big 6, Wolves, Sheffield United etc, then sure, play Kante. But it was Newcastle, who has been bloody parking the bus all season under Steve Bruce and they were barely able to string together any proper counter attacks. We have made it work before without Kante in the XI in the first half of the season and won games comfortably, notably against defensive sides. So, I'm not sure why Kante is needed all of a sudden in such games. Kovacic should have started instead of Kante OR Kante should have been subbed off for Batshuayi instead and go 2 up front instead of sticking with like-for-like changes/system late on.

We have seen in a 3 Kante can also provide in the final third (under Sarri) despite the talk of he should of played as a fixed DM....

People thought Sarri was stubborn but we broke down in the final third due to being too slow and lack of off the ball movement more than poor decision making I felt. Mount has been a huge culprit in the last run of games as has Franks constant stubbornness in his selection of him. Emerson or even Alonso's output at Lb again would be valued in these sort of games but he refuses to play them even in matches where they will basically be wing backs... I mean people keep bringing Reeces final ball and ability to cross at RB but havent said why isnt Frank using Emerson or Alonso, who are naturally left footed on the other side to try create similar...

Against a team who play counter surely having someone whos best strengths are recovering the ball, second balls and being very effective in duels is handy? Especially if we are going to press high to win the ball back? Or if they are going to get up the pitch eventually, having his ability to recover the ball would be vital I think.

The honus isnt just on Kante to create as he isnt purely an offensive minded midfielder. While he can still do better so can the whole attack and in particular as I've said, Mount has shown this season he can do it but has played a lot of minutes where he hasnt. Same with Willian and others. He can do it but its very scarce which has been frustrating throughout his whole spell here. Pedro and Barkleys lack of minutes has also been a huge factor in why we have struggled. While they arent the best surely Barkley if he can recreate his performance against Burnley, can offer something? Or Pedros running in behind teams off the ball can offer something different to everyone standing on their heels waiting?

We do sorely lack Pulisic in these games I feel though. He has got a lot of qualities in 1 v 1s and his end product is very decent. He has a purpose when he gets the ball in the final third. 

Giroud can offer an alternative compared to Tammy but Frank again, wrongly in my eyes, has basically exiled him from the team and sticks to his system of 1 up far too often. 

If it was Jose, Sarri or Conte there would be a lot more uproar regarding poor use of squad players. I dont think its unfair to say the same about Frank. Especially when he wasnt sure if he would get a transfer window this season, not using these players more often in certain moments of games/the season where they might have made a difference has killed us in certain matches along with the poor set up from corners and freekicks which will continually be a problem. We just seem naive in these scenarios.

I suppose you can only piss with the cock you've got but at the same time theres been obvious mistakes in how hes used the squad/substitutes. If he doesnt find the solutions or manage to make improvements in these sort of games we will not be so comfortable in our position in the table and he could find himself under immense pressure.

I think now with the January window he has to make at least 1 or 2 signings to bring something else to the group, be it defensively or offensively. Conceding in stoppage time to Newcastle depsite having 19 shots (not many on target either) just sums up how weve been in recent times. 

[MoroccanBlue 5,385]

Win percentage with Kanté this season: 36%

Win percentage without Kanté this season: 71%

[Jase 43,479]

4 hours ago, OneMoSalah said:

We have seen in a 3 Kante can also provide in the final third (under Sarri) despite the talk of he should of played as a fixed DM....

People thought Sarri was stubborn but we broke down in the final third due to being too slow and lack of off the ball movement more than poor decision making I felt. Mount has been a huge culprit in the last run of games as has Franks constant stubbornness in his selection of him. Emerson or even Alonso's output at Lb again would be valued in these sort of games but he refuses to play them even in matches where they will basically be wing backs... I mean people keep bringing Reeces final ball and ability to cross at RB but havent said why isnt Frank using Emerson or Alonso, who are naturally left footed on the other side to try create similar...

Against a team who play counter surely having someone whos best strengths are recovering the ball, second balls and being very effective in duels is handy? Especially if we are going to press high to win the ball back? Or if they are going to get up the pitch eventually, having his ability to recover the ball would be vital I think.

The honus isnt just on Kante to create as he isnt purely an offensive minded midfielder. While he can still do better so can the whole attack and in particular as I've said, Mount has shown this season he can do it but has played a lot of minutes where he hasnt. Same with Willian and others. He can do it but its very scarce which has been frustrating throughout his whole spell here. Pedro and Barkleys lack of minutes has also been a huge factor in why we have struggled. While they arent the best surely Barkley if he can recreate his performance against Burnley, can offer something? Or Pedros running in behind teams off the ball can offer something different to everyone standing on their heels waiting?

Kante is not the only problem but he is a problem in the way we are trying to play. Kante has shown that he can play the advanced midfield role and fair play to him for having adapted but if we are being honest, the results have been mixed at best. He has looked great in certain games - especially when there is space to play with - and bang average in others - notably against defensive teams. He has not been as consistent as he was when playing in the more conservative system like under Ranieri and Conte. If we are playing against any of the Big 6, Wolves, Sheffield United etc, then yes, we would need Kante but against the very defensive teams like Newcastle yesterday, Kante's inclusion in the XI is questionable. We played without him earlier this season, using a midfield combination of Jorginho/Kovacic/Mount/Barkley, and won comfortably/convincingly against defensive teams. We made it work then, why not now? I do not agree with it but I can accept Lampard starting Kante yesterday but given how the game was panning out, he should have taken Kante out and just gone with 2 up front instead of just making like-for-like sub with Batshuayi for Abraham. We could have thrown the kitchen sink a little bit and see what would happen. But no, Lampard decided to play it safe and we still lost to a stupid goal anyway. 

You said the onus is not on Kante to create, that is true but he is being used in a role that requires him to contribute offensively and he has not been doing that, he is not capable of doing that, not on a regular basis. Kante has not been a bust in this advanced midfield role but it feels like he is neither here nor there right now. He is not consistent going forward and he is not shining defensively in the way he used to under Ranieri/Conte (see my previous post above for some of his defensive numbers). In the style we are trying to play, Kante looks just like your average hard working player with no decisive quality instead of the world class Kante that he is always referred to. 

[Fernando 6,585]

Kante as a 3 men midfielders is a waste. 

Has been horrible lately. 

He has always been an always will be the best as a 2 DM. 

[Vesper 30,224]

SELL HIM IN THE SUMMER OR IT'S A MAJOR COFFIN NAIL IN THE TEAM'S FUTURE UNLESS WE SACK LAMPARD AND BRING IN SIMEONE OR SOME OTHER DEFENSIVE COUNTER-ATTACKING MANAGER 

[MoroccanBlue 5,385]

Is largely, largely responsible for our lack of creation and chance conversion in the final third. 

Think we need to open our eyes and accept reality. We may need to move on from Kante to evolve as a club. 

[Tomo 21,751]

15 minutes ago, MoroccanBlue said:

Is largely, largely responsible for our lack of creation and chance conversion in the final third. 

Think we need to open our eyes and accept reality. We may need to move on from Kante to evolve as a club. 

That's the one thing I will say Lamps should have done better on, breaking up the Jorgi/Kova/Mount trio when it was working so well has been a contributor to our fall from grace.

Watford away was in my opinion our best PL performance for years (the close final scoreline was criminal injustice) and the catalyst was that trio, it's absolute madness we've only seen it once since.

[Vesper 30,224]

7 minutes ago, Tomo said:

That's the one thing I will say Lamps should have done better on, breaking up the Jorgi/Kova/Mount trio when it was working so well has been a contributor to our fall from grace.

Watford away was in my opinion our best PL performance for years (the close final scoreline was criminal injustice) and the catalyst was that trio, it's absolute madness we've only seen it once since.

bingo

further collateral damage from the continued square-peg, round-hole shoehorning in of Kante

[Blue Armour 4,448]

He's probably not the only one, but boy was Kante invisible today.

He was just not into the game at all. Did barely anything all game.

 

[LAM09 7,062]

He's probably not the only one, but boy was Kante invisible today.
He was just not into the game at all. Did barely anything all game.
 

Did we watch the same game?

A bit shaking at the start, but he was rather solid defensively for the rest of the game.