The Hiddink Thread

[robsblubot 3,595]

23 minutes ago, Henrique said:

I'M NO COMPARING MOURINHO AND HIDDINK.

I'm only showing what it takes to stay in PL next season. 15 points, and even a pretty bad run of games might be enough to survive the relegation.

That's even more pointless... Mourinho was also improving the team... so if you skip N games from the start of the season, his numbers would also be in the right direction. 

If HIddink was hired for that goal he got the easiest job on earth.

BTW, you keep saying Matic is not world class, but that's really not the point is it? 

[Henrique 9,133]

1 hour ago, Robguima said:

That's even more pointless... Mourinho was also improving the team... so if you skip N games from the start of the season, his numbers would also be in the right direction. 

If HIddink was hired for that goal he got the easiest job on earth.

BTW, you keep saying Matic is not world class, but that's really not the point is it? 

HAHAHAHAHA. Feel free to choose a number of games that showed the team was in the right direction.

I think some people really don't understand how bad things were.

 

[robsblubot 3,595]

16 minutes ago, Henrique said:

HAHAHAHAHA. Feel free to choose a number of games that showed the team was in the right direction.

I think some people really don't understand how bad things were.

 

sure put city, liverpool, and arsenal in the same bucket as Everton and smaller sides... like I said you compare completely unequal things to make a point.

The difference between Chelsea and these smallers sides is just too great for me to accept that Hiddink was necessary - a pretty average manager these days at that.

and how much of the progress we see now was from Jose work?

I am not making a point now - just disagreeing with you and the whole idea. 

[Henrique 9,133]

2 minutes ago, Robguima said:

sure put city, liverpool, and arsenal in the same bucket as Everton and smaller sides... like I said you compare completely unequal things to make a point.

The difference between Chelsea and these smallers sides is just too great for me to accept that Hiddink was necessary - a pretty average manager these days at that.

I am not making a point now - just disagreeing with you and the whole idea. 

Hiddink wasn't necessary, but Getting rid of Mourinho was. Who is in charge is pretty irrelevant. I don't understand how someone who is watching is going on this season at this point can still be discussing if sacking Mourinho didn't improved this team's performance, since the results speak loud, specially when those people are using "smaller" sides arguments, when this team was losing games at against the likes of Bournemouth and getting smashed by Sunderland. So I don't know where the "unequal" thing is coming from, specially when you said the team was "improving", mate, 9 games before Mourinho was sacked all he did was ugly victories at home against Villa and Norwich, one 0-0 against Spurs and 6 defeats. His last two games were defeats with bad football.

But again, I don't care about Jose Mourinho, I'm only concerned about this team surviving the mess he created. More 15 points, please.

[robsblubot 3,595]

2 hours ago, Henrique said:

Hiddink wasn't necessary, but Getting rid of Mourinho was. Who is in charge is pretty irrelevant. I don't understand how someone who is watching is going on this season at this point can still be discussing if sacking Mourinho didn't improved this team's performance, since the results speak loud, specially when those people are using "smaller" sides arguments, when this team was losing games at against the likes of Bournemouth and getting smashed by Sunderland. So I don't know where the "unequal" thing is coming from, specially when you said the team was "improving", mate, 9 games before Mourinho was sacked all he did was ugly victories at home against Villa and Norwich, one 0-0 against Spurs and 6 defeats. His last two games were defeats with bad football.

But again, I don't care about Jose Mourinho, I'm only concerned about this team surviving the mess he created. More 15 points, please.

We were not in the relegation zone. you have an opinion that not changing managers would cause us to go down - I disagree.

I agree that changing managers marginally improved things, because some players did not want to play for Jose - which also empowers them now.

Jose did not create this mess - the players and the club did. He is partially responsible, of course.

players were unfit at the start of the season - they've been slowly getting into shape with or without Jose . Some of today's 'improvement' comes from Jose training sessions.

Hiddink is using the same players Jose used before at one time or another.

Btw I see no drastic improvement under Hiddink. Just the same shit I've been seeing under Jose. Chelsea is barely watchable these days.

if you are not a fan u don't watch us play.

we are wasting precious time.

[Stats 7,147]

6 hours ago, Gilvorak said:

Nope. He had a solid game. Kept things ticking while Cesc brought us back from the dead.

Us getting back in the game was not down to Oscar and I wouldn't say he was good, just decent. Yeah he sprayed a few passes but he did not add any meaningful impact. I am not saying he was poor but for anyone to say he changed the game is as ridiculous as when people used to say we are a better team when Oscar is in the team. The only reason why he was able to "keep things ticking" was because Everton were 2-0 up and sitting deep and looking to hit us on the counter so of course he is going to "keep things ticking".

[Jase 43,479]

2 minutes ago, Stats said:

Us scoring really was not down to Oscar. Yeah he sprayed a few passes but he did not add any meaningful impact. I am not saying he was poor but for anyone to say he chanegd the game is as ridiculous as when people used to say we are a better team when Oscar is in the team. The only reason why he was able to "keep things ticking" was because Everton were 2-0 up and sitting deep and looking to hit us on the counter so of course he is going to "keep things ticking".

It's Oscar and you're talking to Gilvorak about him. You should know better.

[changingman2000 35]

Overall, we were dreadful today. Defence is absolutely no more, midfield haven't got the fight in them and attack wise is shallow. HAve things improved since Jose was binned? No. Results may seem better, but, on paper they should be in any case. 

 

Arsenal next weekend, will be different.

[Gilvorak 3,734]

3 hours ago, Stats said:

Us getting back in the game was not down to Oscar and I wouldn't say he was good, just decent. Yeah he sprayed a few passes but he did not add any meaningful impact. I am not saying he was poor but for anyone to say he changed the game is as ridiculous as when people used to say we are a better team when Oscar is in the team. The only reason why he was able to "keep things ticking" was because Everton were 2-0 up and sitting deep and looking to hit us on the counter so of course he is going to "keep things ticking".

Excuses. We improved with him on the pitch while Matic the fraud who's this forums darling got exposed once again. Oscar has his flaws but you can't say he's a liability on the pitch unlike a certain Serbian donkey.

 

Once again, brilliant sub by Guus.

[Gilvorak 3,734]

4 hours ago, Henrique said:

HAHAHAHAHA. Feel free to choose a number of games that showed the team was in the right direction.

I think some people really don't understand how bad things were.

 

Wonderful job by Guus. Really turned it around and he did it without Hazard.

[robsblubot 3,595]

Oscar was average - at least he played at a high intensity.

Oscar coming on changed the shape of the team. It's not a difficult concept to grasp... another CAM might have done the same, more, or less. There is no way to find out.

Most of the time it aint about individuals, but tactics and intent. 

BTW, we lost the game - just got a lucky point at the end with refs help. We are Everton.

[Stats 7,147]

4 hours ago, Stats said:

1 hour ago, Gilvorak said:

Excuses. We improved with him on the pitch while Matic the fraud who's this forums darling got exposed once again. Oscar has his flaws but you can't say he's a liability on the pitch unlike a certain Serbian donkey.

 

Once again, brilliant sub by Guus.

Us scoring really was not down to Oscar. Yeah he sprayed a few passes but he did not add any meaningful impact. I am not saying he was poor but for anyone to say he chanegd the game is as ridiculous as when people used to say we are a better team when Oscar is in the team. The only reason why he was able to "keep things ticking" was because Everton were 2-0 up and sitting deep and looking to hit us on the counter so of course he is going to "keep things ticking".

Matic is far from the 'forum's darling'. It seems like me and a few others are the only ones supporting him. The majority have turned on him. What excuses? I am a Chelsea fan and say it how I see it. I don't think he done anything wrong but I also don't think he did anything spectacular to say he had a good game. Well actually he made the last minute assist which the ref failed to see

No denying Matic was poor but it is no denying that a lot of the reasons we scored was down to luck. A more clinical team would have put us to the sword yesterday. Matic is having a difficult spell but he is no more a fraud than Oscar is. Matic has had plenty of quality games for us.

[Blue Armour 4,446]

No potentially good young RB in the squad ,..clearly Hiddink isn't confident in Baba Rahman.

Really hope the board/Hiddink dives into the market and pulls up a quality full-back. Will not be considered an impulsive buy in my book.

[Madmax 9,219]

At least we're fun to watch again and I don't have to count down the minutes till the final whistle.

[BlueLion. 21,491]

15 hours ago, Kieran. said:

wish people could understand that we are a work in progress. We aren't going to magically be great again by the snap of Guus' fingers. I think he's done a good job considering how poor we were before.

 

I agree.

 

In six league games since José has gone, we've taken ten points from a possible eighteen (1.67 points per game) 

In the sixteen games prior to that, we'd taken fifteen points from a possible 48 (0.94 points per game). 

 

That is a massive improvement, especially since we've gone unbeaten in six in the league. In the context of our own season and the PL in general this campaign, that isn't something to be sniffed at. 

[Muzchap 8,966]

32 minutes ago, BlueLion said:

 

I agree.

 

In six league games since José has gone, we've taken ten points from a possible eighteen (1.67 points per game) 

In the sixteen games prior to that, we'd taken fifteen points from a possible 48 (0.94 points per game). 

 

That is a massive improvement, especially since we've gone unbeaten in six in the league. In the context of our own season and the PL in general this campaign, that isn't something to be sniffed at. 

Like I said to Henrique - don't let the stats spoil a good argument

overall, I'm happy with Guus, he's done a good job of motivating players and improvements are being made. It's obvious our back 4 are fucked whoever is in charge, time to bring back some loan players and thrust them into action (if we are not hitting the transfer market).

I do really want him to drop Ivanovic though and at least try Azpi / Baba as Full Backs. It would give us so much more balance and would in my opinion help us against leaking goals - as essentially Terry could be the last man, whilst AZPI and Baba could sit alongside Matic and MIKEL, with Zouma pushing up as well (as he has the pace) - that would make us much harder to bypass and give us a solid foundation. 

I wish i could be arsed to use those websites to illustrate my point - but I'm lazy and due out now for Sunday lunch, so hopefully you can imagine what I'm trying to say.

[BlueLion. 21,491]

Furthermore...

 

 

• Only four teams have picked up more points than us in the six games since Hiddink's arrival - and all four are top five sides.
• Four points from six on the road (at United and Palace, not what you'd call "easy" games) since Hiddink's arrival.
• The only team in the top flight not to have lost in the last six - a considerable achievement considering the competition the PL can boast this season (the longest unbeaten run any side has maintained is Tottenham with 14, then Leicester with 10, and, in third, West Ham with 8 - but no other side in the division has gone more than 6 matches without a loss). 

For a club of our stature, and for the defending champions, this would constitute a below-par run, but, as I say, when you consider how poor we were under Mourinho, (where only once did we manage to avoid defeat in two consecutive games (Norwich at home, 1-0; Spurs at White Hart Lane, 0-0)), this is definitely progress. 

 

Hiddink has done exactly what needed to be done. We were struggling to do anything, let alone score goals. So he decided to go back to basics and work on a defensive system that would give us the confidence that we wouldn't concede too many goals in a match to undermine our chances of success. Okay, so we've had three high-scoring draws - Watford, West Brom, and Everton yesterday - but if you analyse those goals, I am pretty certain that they all were the result of individual collective errors. For Watford, it's a penalty and a deflected goal which individual players could have done better with. On Wednesday, Pedro gave the ball away and then Zouma backed off, giving Gardner the time to stride on and stroke the ball home, and their second goal came about from a poor clearance. Yesterday was an odd game, a one-in-a-hundred which shouldn't be over-analysed, but again, on all three goals, it's a case of "could have done better", especially for the Funes Mori goal where Ivanovic and Oscar essentially had a snooze. On a collective level we are defending far better as a unit, and also a lot further up the pitch. The biggest thing I've noticed is the distance between the defence and midfield isn't as big as it once was - we're more compact as an eleven and that has led to us getting three clean sheets in six games. 

 

We're also now a more potent attacking side. The average position of Azpilicueta is testament to that. I haven't seen him get so far forward ever for us. That's why he's scoring (West Brom for the 1-0) and assisting (Scunthorpe for RLC's 2-0 goal) all of a sudden. And it's all down to Hiddink's decision to play one player.

 

John Obi Mikel.

 

It is Matic, not Cesc, who has been the midfield liability for us this season. The proof is evident from Cesc's evident return to form in recent games. I think Hiddink made a mistake in playing Mikel and Matic yesterday - that is why we were so negative in the first half - and we improved greatly with Oscar on the pitch. Oscar didn't have a particularly outstanding game, but he kept things ticking over with some simple short passing and was relatively industrious and getting back to give Mikel a hand. Yesterday was actually Mikel's worst game ever under Hiddink, but he was still relatively competent and did what he was on the pitch for. He defended. And he did it well. Matic has been such a liability that not only does he kill our attacks, but he essentially sets them up for the opposition by dawdling on the ball. Mikel is never going to be a special player, but he is the simple, effective focal point of the side. There's a reason we've never lost under Hiddink with Mikel in the side. He sits and screens the defence, and that gives licence for Cesc for get forward and have an impact on the play. And then all of a sudden Costa is scoring goals again. It's like a chain reaction. Mikel gives the defence confidence - that allows Ivanovic and Azpilicueta to push forward - which allows Fabregas to play further forward, and generally in more space - and that brings Costa into the fold. What is it, five goals in four for Diego since Hiddink returned? There's no surprise that we're a better team when Cesc and Diego are firing, and it is down to the simplicity that Mikel offers, in my opinion. He gives us defensive solidarity which enables us to have more attacking potency. 

 

You need to think of our midfield as a giant sandwich. 

 

Mikel is the bread. Boring by itself, but he holds everything together.

Players like Oscar, Willian and Ramires are the butter. They're not particularly special - Willian is having an outstanding season. Don't get me wrong. But is that down to others around him lacking in form and confidence, or because he has suddenly developed into a game changer? I ain't certain. But they keep things ticking over. They're the composite part that the team wouldn't be able to function without. You can have a sandwich without butter but it doesn't wash down well.

Then you have the likes of Pedro, Costa and Hazard. The attacking threat. They're the filling - a nice juicy slice of beef. Again, you can have the bread and butter, but without the filling, it's pretty pointless. There's no substance. 

Then you have Fabregas, our source of inspiration. He is very much so the lick of mustard which makes everything worthwhile. You need the mustard to bring the flavour out of the beef. Otherwise the beef by itself is a little bland.

 

But without the bread, all you've got is a slice of beef that is covered in butter and mustard. No fucking point in that, is there? Not without the bread.

 

Mikel does such a simple role and that is the reason why Mourinho, Grant, Scolari, Hiddink, Ancelotti, Villas-Boas, di Matteo, Benitez, Mourinho again, and now Hiddink again, value his quality and the things he brings to the team. I ain't saying it is all on him, but he's certainly the fulcrum of what we've got going for us. Hiddink is doing what he needs to do, and now the onus is on the players, who're starting to build up a small amount of momentum, to start converting these draws into wins. Let's go on a real run, now. A bit of investment by the board would certainly help, as well. We have most of the tools for a top four push, which I firmly believe is still a possibility. But if top four is a possibility, then so is relegation. Hiddink is doing what he needs to do to stabilise the side. He's doing a top job. 

 

[Tomo 21,751]

1 hour ago, BlueLion said:

Furthermore...

 

 

• Only four teams have picked up more points than us in the six games since Hiddink's arrival - and all four are top five sides.
• Four points from six on the road (at United and Palace, not what you'd call "easy" games) since Hiddink's arrival.
• The only team in the top flight not to have lost in the last six - a considerable achievement considering the competition the PL can boast this season (the longest unbeaten run any side has maintained is Tottenham with 14, then Leicester with 10, and, in third, West Ham with 8 - but no other side in the division has gone more than 6 matches without a loss). 

For a club of our stature, and for the defending champions, this would constitute a below-par run, but, as I say, when you consider how poor we were under Mourinho, (where only once did we manage to avoid defeat in two consecutive games (Norwich at home, 1-0; Spurs at White Hart Lane, 0-0)), this is definitely progress. 

 

Hiddink has done exactly what needed to be done. We were struggling to do anything, let alone score goals. So he decided to go back to basics and work on a defensive system that would give us the confidence that we wouldn't concede too many goals in a match to undermine our chances of success. Okay, so we've had three high-scoring draws - Watford, West Brom, and Everton yesterday - but if you analyse those goals, I am pretty certain that they all were the result of individual collective errors. For Watford, it's a penalty and a deflected goal which individual players could have done better with. On Wednesday, Pedro gave the ball away and then Zouma backed off, giving Gardner the time to stride on and stroke the ball home, and their second goal came about from a poor clearance. Yesterday was an odd game, a one-in-a-hundred which shouldn't be over-analysed, but again, on all three goals, it's a case of "could have done better", especially for the Funes Mori goal where Ivanovic and Oscar essentially had a snooze. On a collective level we are defending far better as a unit, and also a lot further up the pitch. The biggest thing I've noticed is the distance between the defence and midfield isn't as big as it once was - we're more compact as an eleven and that has led to us getting three clean sheets in six games. 

 

We're also now a more potent attacking side. The average position of Azpilicueta is testament to that. I haven't seen him get so far forward ever for us. That's why he's scoring (West Brom for the 1-0) and assisting (Scunthorpe for RLC's 2-0 goal) all of a sudden. And it's all down to Hiddink's decision to play one player.

 

John Obi Mikel.

 

It is Matic, not Cesc, who has been the midfield liability for us this season. The proof is evident from Cesc's evident return to form in recent games. I think Hiddink made a mistake in playing Mikel and Matic yesterday - that is why we were so negative in the first half - and we improved greatly with Oscar on the pitch. Oscar didn't have a particularly outstanding game, but he kept things ticking over with some simple short passing and was relatively industrious and getting back to give Mikel a hand. Yesterday was actually Mikel's worst game ever under Hiddink, but he was still relatively competent and did what he was on the pitch for. He defended. And he did it well. Matic has been such a liability that not only does he kill our attacks, but he essentially sets them up for the opposition by dawdling on the ball. Mikel is never going to be a special player, but he is the simple, effective focal point of the side. There's a reason we've never lost under Hiddink with Mikel in the side. He sits and screens the defence, and that gives licence for Cesc for get forward and have an impact on the play. And then all of a sudden Costa is scoring goals again. It's like a chain reaction. Mikel gives the defence confidence - that allows Ivanovic and Azpilicueta to push forward - which allows Fabregas to play further forward, and generally in more space - and that brings Costa into the fold. What is it, five goals in four for Diego since Hiddink returned? There's no surprise that we're a better team when Cesc and Diego are firing, and it is down to the simplicity that Mikel offers, in my opinion. He gives us defensive solidarity which enables us to have more attacking potency. 

 

You need to think of our midfield as a giant sandwich. 

 

Mikel is the bread. Boring by itself, but he holds everything together.

Players like Oscar, Willian and Ramires are the butter. They're not particularly special - Willian is having an outstanding season. Don't get me wrong. But is that down to others around him lacking in form and confidence, or because he has suddenly developed into a game changer? I ain't certain. But they keep things ticking over. They're the composite part that the team wouldn't be able to function without. You can have a sandwich without butter but it doesn't wash down well.

Then you have the likes of Pedro, Costa and Hazard. The attacking threat. They're the filling - a nice juicy slice of beef. Again, you can have the bread and butter, but without the filling, it's pretty pointless. There's no substance. 

Then you have Fabregas, our source of inspiration. He is very much so the lick of mustard which makes everything worthwhile. You need the mustard to bring the flavour out of the beef. Otherwise the beef by itself is a little bland.

 

But without the bread, all you've got is a slice of beef that is covered in butter and mustard. No fucking point in that, is there? Not without the bread.

 

Mikel does such a simple role and that is the reason why Mourinho, Grant, Scolari, Hiddink, Ancelotti, Villas-Boas, di Matteo, Benitez, Mourinho again, and now Hiddink again, value his quality and the things he brings to the team. I ain't saying it is all on him, but he's certainly the fulcrum of what we've got going for us. Hiddink is doing what he needs to do, and now the onus is on the players, who're starting to build up a small amount of momentum, to start converting these draws into wins. Let's go on a real run, now. A bit of investment by the board would certainly help, as well. We have most of the tools for a top four push, which I firmly believe is still a possibility. But if top four is a possibility, then so is relegation. Hiddink is doing what he needs to do to stabilise the side. He's doing a top job. 

 

I agree with all off that apart from top 4 and relegation.

The only way we are getting CL next season is if we win it this and the only way we are getting relegated is if we get done for match fixing.

Top 6 is still a realistic aim however, few wins on the spin and we are their or their abouts.

[Kieran. 6,317]

We ain't getting top 4 but we can sure as hell finish above Liverpool

[Tomo 21,751]

37 minutes ago, Kieran. said:

We ain't getting top 4 but we can sure as hell finish above Liverpool

Liverpool and United are so shit, the fact were below them both shows just how horrible we've been, but in top form we are well ahead of both.