Filipe Luís

[lionsden 4,689]

We weren't really covered tho.

Ash just didn't cut it any more and the fact he is having a hard time at Roma supports that, and I have been there re Bertrand before.

Who knows what Mous plan with him was, maybe the plan was to have him as our new LB but circumstance (him taking longer to adapt, Azpi getting even better and Ivan hitting form) dictated otherwise.

After all we had to put up with player's getting picked on reputation (Carlos second season especially) or because of price tag (Torres) for years, I for one am glad those type of politics are a thing of the past down King's Road.

Firstly that's nothing more than your opinion that we weren't covered at LB. Even if that was true (which it isn't imo) is that a justification to spend that amoiunt for a mere squad player in a position where players generally don't cost alot. paying that much for a LB and one with such huge reputation (He was rated as the best LB in Europe last season) just to be back up is very excessive and stupid no matter how one looks at it.

[didierforever 7,349]

This the same as the Lukaku on loan at Eveton and WBA thing, its one thing to be good at Southampton but a totally different thing to be good at Chelsea. At Southampton he isn't playing for anywhere near a demanding coach in comparison to Jose, where they aren't under so much pressure as we are due to being the favorites for the PL title, Capital One Cup and one of them for the Champions League. Don't get me wrong Berty is a decent enough LB for a club like Southampton and has softened the blow of losing Shaw but he's hardly exceptional. I'd rather chose a LB out of Azpilicueta and Filipe Luis than Azpilicueta and Bertrand. If we didn't lack English players and Filipe didn't struggle a bit recently, I bet Bertrand not being here wouldn't be a problem to the majority of people. Nobody cared why he wasn't in the team last year when Azpi and Cole were fit so why are people worried now we have 2 of the best LBs in Europe (although even Ashley was up there still last season and was exceptional in games vs Atletico and Liverpool in particular)? Baffles me in the same way people complain about Diego Costa 'not being good at combination play' when we had 3 and a half years of Torres...

Also your point about Filipe, 'defensively he is levels below Azpi', how many fullbacks are better than Azpi defensively in the PL let alone Europe? Hardly any, he is the best defensive player I think we've had in a fullback position for years and years. Its like saying about Eden 'he is levels below Messi and Ronaldo' but everyone is... its a nonsense comparison because they are the best at what they do.

this is a completely different issue from lukaku. lukaku had not played for us, ryan has. and he has been good whenever he has been told to step in for cole. also, why does he have to be exceptional? he is a good left back, solid in defence, brilliant workrate and can lend a hand in attack as he is showing at soton. i dont remember a single performance of ryan's that i can say was below par. obviously ryan being english is a major point. people keep yammering about youth and this guy is a club trained player who fits the bill perfectly. he would have been a brilliant squad player. wait scratch that, he already has been a brilliant squad player for us. 16mil for a 29 year old who is stuggling to cope in PL and is being used as a back up left back is not really the best decision that jose has made. as for not making a point about defnding bertrand last season, call back TOPTB and ask him what i thought about his loan. bertrand deserved to have been started ahead of cole last season after the kind of performances cole put in the start of the season. yet we persisted with cole and then dint even given bertrand any chance.

also why does torres have to be the benchmark in everythin. bamford is better than torres, i am better than torres, does that mean every aspect of the game is perfect. i remember jose saying a couple of pressers or pre-match ago that diego is still settling to a new style of play from ATM where he has to be better technically. and that is true. diego is a brilliant striker but we dont have to turn a blind eye to his faults.

when you hear people crib match after match about "why is not luis starting", "why did we buy him" and yada yada yada.. this is why, cos azpi is a much much better defender. how is that a nonsense comparision. if we had CR in our team, and people kept cribbing about watching EH play on the LW, THAT IS A NONSENSICAL thing. simply cos he is a much better player. and that is why azpi starts over luis.

[lionsden 4,689]

I will be very angry if we end up losing Bertrand and it looks very likely at this point. He's worked incredibly hard to reach his current level which is high regardless of what some think and has remained extremely patient and humble for the most part bar his little tantrum towards Jose recently (who can blame him).

I lost count on the amount of loans we sent him out on and yet kept his head down and remaibed fully motivated and did brilliantly whenever called upon. He's the one player that does deserve to make it here based on both merit and sentimental values and no one will ever convince me that he's not more than good enough to play for a top team like Chelsea. He's proven his competency already.

[CHOULO19 24,332]

Stop saying 19m when it's clearly 16m. He wasn't signed as a back up left back at all and he isn't by far our most expensive defender either. Stop over exaggerating things.

Why are you acting as if he has been absolutely horrible and hasn't had good games and made cases to start? Do you think people just want him to play for the sake of it? And not because he's actually had good games? Come on Choo.

Seriously Choo? We're talking about PL games. How many PL minutes has he played? Check that then get back to me.

Again, you're acting like he's never had good performances for us. That's incredibly short sighted and I expect better from you tbh. One mixed performance (he was excellent in periods in the 2nd half) from Luis after not playing for a while and he's suddenly become a waste of money for you. Right.

If you're going to get upset and not actually argue the points, then never mind, I was just looking for a decent debate. Certainly not looking for a holier than thou/patronizing "expected better from you" crap......I expected better from you, Skip!

[killer1257 3,282]

I will be very angry if we end up losing Bertrand and it looks very likely at this point. He's worked incredibly hard to reach his current level which is high regardless of what some think and has remained extremely patient and humble for the most part bar his little tantrum towards Jose recently (who can blame him).

I lost count on the amount of loans we sent him out on and yet kept his head down and remaibed fully motivated and did brilliantly whenever called upon. He's the one player that does deserve to make it here based on both merit and sentimental values and no one will ever convince me that he's not more than good enough to play for a top team like Chelsea. He's proven his competency already.

In my opinion,he should leave because he deserves a chance to play regular football every week.He will not be a starter here because Azpi is simply the best LB and he deserves something better.

He loves Chelsea,but he once said that Chelsea always lied to him when it came about getting games at Chelsea.He said that the management always said to him that he will get his fair chance,but in the end,we know that he did not get his fair chance.

It is what it is.Bertrand was maybe to patient.He should have left us when he was 22 or so.

[lionsden 4,689]

In my opinion,he should leave because he deserves a chance to play regular football every week.He will not be a starter here because Azpi is simply the best LB and he deserves something better.

He loves Chelsea,but he once said that Chelsea always lied to him when it came about getting games at Chelsea.He said that the management always said to him that he will get his fair chance,but in the end,we know that he did not get his fair chance.

It is what it is.Bertrand was maybe to patient.He should have left us when he was 22 or so.

I absolutely agree with you that moving on is best for his career.

But according to some "if you are good enough, you will make it here". Bertrand's treatment has basically busted that theory.

It's more like if the manager likes/rates you, you will make it here. Jose never rated him from the start for whatever reason. Bertrand never stood a chance.

[lucio 5,418]

so now bertrand has gone from underrated to completely overrated, he did well enough, but no chance we will miss him

[killer1257 3,282]

I absolutely agree with you that moving on is best for his career.

But according to some "if you are good enough, you will make it here". Bertrand's treatment has basically busted that theory.

It's more like if the manager likes/rates you, you will make it here. Jose never rated him from the start for whatever reason hence why he bought Filipe and banished him permanently to the bench and later shipping him out on loan.

In my opinion,he was better than Ashley in his last 2 years.Ashley was nowhere near his peak and Bertrand had everything to replace him,but Chelsea did not give him enough minutes.Ashley did a lot of defense mistakes,which caused that we drpped a lot of points and offensively,he wasn´t great either.He was not the best LB in the PL anymore.Why not give Bertrand a chance,who has more stamina,is faster and better at crossing?Still Chelsea did not manage to give him a chance.Like you said,it is always about the manager.If he likes the youth,he will give you a chance.If he loves experience,you can simply leave the club.

Everytime he played,he played good.I do not remember a bad game from him.At least he won the CL and I think that he deserves that.At least he got one good memory for him at Chelsea.

Great guy,great character and he still said that he likes Chelsea,even though we treated him badly.

[The Skipper 20,609]

If you're going to get upset and not actually argue the points, then never mind, I was just looking for a decent debate. Certainly not looking for a holier than thou/patronizing "expected better from you" crap......I expected better from you, Skip!

I have argued the points that I've felt needed arguing.

[lionsden 4,689]

In my opinion,he was better than Ashley in his last 2 years.Ashley was nowhere near his peak and Bertrand had everything to replace him,but Chelsea did not give him enough minutes.Ashley did a lot of defense mistakes,which caused that we drpped a lot of points and offensively,he wasn´t great either.He was not the best LB in the PL anymore.Why not give Bertrand a chance,who has more stamina,is faster and better at crossing?Still Chelsea did not manage to give him a chance.Like you said,it is always about the manager.If he likes the youth,he will give you a chance.If he loves experience,you can simply leave the club.

Everytime he played,he played good.I do not remember a bad game from him.At least he won the CL and I think that he deserves that.At least he got one good memory for him at Chelsea.

Great guy,great character and he still said that he likes Chelsea,even though we treated him badly.

I absolutely agree with you here but to answer your question.

Reputation/perception that's why. A former world class player who some may still blindly see as world class showing increasing signs of decline and playing extremely poorly vs an irrelevant (in football circuit) LB bought from Gillingham for 125,000.

In this situation the manager has to like and rate the underdog extrmely highly before he can get a proper chance over the established player even if it's evidently clear that the underdog is outperforming the ageing and declining superstar. that's football politics and human nature sadly.

[lucio 5,418]

I absolutely agree with you here but to answer your question.

Reputation/perception that's why. A former world class player who some may still blindly see as world class showing increasing signs of decline and playing extremely poorly vs an irrelevant (in football circuit) LB bought from Gillingham for 125,000.

In this situation the manager has to like and rate the underdog extrmely highly before he can get a proper chance over the established player even if it's evidently clear that the underdog is outperforming the ageing and declining superstar. that's football politics and human nature sadly.

irrelevant lb who played 56 times for us. its not like he wasn't given lots of chances. which other youngsters can say that.

bertrand was fairly established, mourinho thought he wasnt quite good enough to play a major role. and i agree

[Tomo 21,751]

Firstly that's nothing more than your opinion that we weren't covered at LB. Even if that was true (which it isn't imo) is that a justification to spend that amoiunt for a mere squad player in a position where players generally don't cost alot. paying that much for a LB and one with such huge reputation (He was rated as the best LB in Europe last season) just to be back up is very excessive and stupid no matter how one looks at it.

If he was signed with the intention to be back up then ofcourse, but like I said the circumstance can easily change things, like those examples in my previous post.

And even with Luis we are light at the back, he's our only senior back up, after that were down to teenagers.

[didierforever 7,349]

so now bertrand has gone from underrated to completely overrated, he did well enough, but no chance we will miss him

tbh, i dont think anyone is overrating bertrand. he was a good back up and the amount of time luis has played, i think bertrand could have filled that role easily

[Sir Mikel OBE 4,920]

Im sorry but there is no comparison to PVA, Aanholt is the most tactically and positionally inept defender I have ever seen (at a high level) and considering I/we had to suffer with Bosingwa for years, that's saying something.

He can attack though, and that seems to be the only standard people are judging by when they call for Luis to start over dave.

[calculatingInfinity 1,472]

He can attack though, and that seems to be the only standard people are judging by when they call for Luis to start over dave.

I'm calling Luis to start over Ivan, who has been underperforming quite a bit recently both in defense and attack.