Nemanja Matic

[Henrique 9,133]

1 hour ago, BlueLyon said:

Why are you throwing Azpi name next to Iva, Cesc etc? He is great fullback on defensive side and certainly a quality one.

 

Mahrez disagrees.

[robsblubot 3,529]

5 hours ago, Henrique said:

 

1- Those posts are not from last season, but from like 2 months after he joined or 6 matches played. No one is discussing he being key player last season (the likes of Fabregas, Azpilicueta and Ivanovic were also key players last season).

 

2- Makelele and Matic are different players, but in my books thats a very weak argument, that doesn't make any sense. The fact two players are different, doesn't mean you can compare both in terms of quality. Its like saying you can't compare Neymar and Oscar because both are different players. 

3- I'm not discussing Matic as a CM, since he barely played as a CM for Chelsea, and as a Chelsea player he is beyond doubt a DM, but I really doubt he would be a good CM, unless for a South American team, where usually the CM are no more than a 2nd DM.

4- I'm discussing the perception that some fans had of this team in the best. Many players where overrated not only by some fans, but also by local press. Matic is beyond doubt a useful player, but far from a world class player. What is happening this season is a result of being way too happy with a squad that had the likes of Oscar, Azpilicueta, Matic, Cahill and Ivanovic in the starting line-up, if you ask me.

1. Distinctly remember Matic and Luiz in midfield giving us the best record against the top sides ... ever? MOTM was a toss between him and Luiz... short memories around here.

2. Yes, you can compare players with different characteristics, but then you'd be comparing types not quality. Unless you value certain abilities, which would favor matic as what he does is quantifiable more valuable to sides than a pure defensive DM. Neymar can't play alone so he needs someone like Oscar next to him.

3. Disagree again here. That's just his label in the lineup. Sometimes he's the DM and sometimes he is a CM. He's definitely a CM when playing alongside Mikel for example. And more of a CM when next to Ramires. More a DM with Fabregas. Even Mikel isn't your typical DM type.

4. He played at a very high level since he joined us and was very consistent too. In my book he deserved every bit of praise he got; just as he deserves the criticism now along with most of the players.

 

[Jase 43,479]

2 hours ago, Henrique said:

 

Mahrez disagrees.

In those 1-v-1 situation INSIDE the penalty box, it can always be tricky to defend against players like Mahrez. Maybe the question should be why no one else came to help him - Terry, Pedro?

And how does one mistake like that mean Azpi isn't good?

[Henrique 9,133]

1 hour ago, Jason said:

In those 1-v-1 situation INSIDE the penalty box, it can always be tricky to defend against players like Mahrez. Maybe the question should be why no one else came to help him - Terry, Pedro?

And how does one mistake like that mean Azpi isn't good?

Azpi is decent. Far from Ashley Cole quality.

[BlueLyon 9,359]

9 hours ago, Henrique said:

 

Mahrez disagrees.

Yeah because defender never makes mistakes. And Mahrez is in top shit form this season too.

[DYC. 7,542]

5 hours ago, Henrique said:

Azpi is decent. Far from Ashley Cole quality.

Such nonsense. I've seen Cole being ripped apart by the likes of Walcott, Lennon, Valencia etc. It happens to everyone. There's no such thing as a fullback who's never been embarrassed or hasn't gone through bad games or spells, even seasons. Azpilicueta is a fantastic defender. He wins the great majority of the battles he faces. His problem is on the ball (playing on his weaker foot doesn't help) and in offence.

[Henrique 9,133]

8 hours ago, DYC. said:

Such nonsense. I've seen Cole being ripped apart by the likes of Walcott, Lennon, Valencia etc. It happens to everyone. There's no such thing as a fullback who's never been embarrassed or hasn't gone through bad games or spells, even seasons. Azpilicueta is a fantastic defender. He wins the great majority of the battles he faces. His problem is on the ball (playing on his weaker foot doesn't help) and in offence.

Azpi is not even a LB mate. Cole was miles better than Azpi, specially in terms of what he offered going forward. Chelsea left side was usually the strongest in that aspect, and he always made up good links with the left attackers. Azpi is an average player, just like Cahill. Far from "fantastic", since for me a full back is such a complex role to be played in football. A full back that has problem when he has the ball, is not a "fantastic" full back in my books. Cole usually put Ronaldo in his pocket back in the days, while Azpi is the kind of guy that would win the majority of the battles he face, bust against  average sides.

I will say it again, but there is a big problem with this squad when you realize people saying players like Azpi are "fantastic".

[DYC. 7,542]

11 hours ago, Henrique said:

Azpi is not even a LB mate. Cole was miles better than Azpi, specially in terms of what he offered going forward. Chelsea left side was usually the strongest in that aspect, and he always made up good links with the left attackers. Azpi is an average player, just like Cahill. Far from "fantastic", since for me a full back is such a complex role to be played in football. A full back that has problem when he has the ball, is not a "fantastic" full back in my books. Cole usually put Ronaldo in his pocket back in the days, while Azpi is the kind of guy that would win the majority of the battles he face, bust against  average sides.

I will say it again, but there is a big problem with this squad when you realize people saying players like Azpi are "fantastic".

Oh dear Henrique, you're reading what you want to read. You implied Azpilicueta is a decent defender and Cole being so much better. I disagreed and said he's a fantastic defender. I even said he's poor on the ball and in attack and now you're talking about what Cole offered going forward. Even talking about what fullback should offer. I said he's a fantastic defender. Not that he's brilliant all-round fullback.

Yes, Cole did often beat Ronaldo. It's always mentioned. The thing about that is Cristiano was 18-22/23 in those days. And the left-winger Ronaldo is two, three times the player right-winger Ronaldo was. Even better. Dani Alves always beat him 1-on-1 in the Clasicos an Alves isn't even a top defender. And Cole beating Ronaldo doesn't change the fact that he would also get outmaneuvered by those I mentioned before.

But before you misread things again, I realise Cole is better than Azpilicueta. Much better.

[El P. 1,354]

To add up to Azpi discussion:

Azpi in defense is what Willian is in attack, if you ask me.

Problem is not Azpi, problem is second full-back. If you have defensive second full back, than it's shit, I agree. But, put Azpi on the right, where he can provide some attacking, and put on the left some more offensive full-back and there you go.

You don't need to have complete player in every position. You have Azpi - great in defense, only decent in attack on the right. Play some great in attack, only decent at the defense full-back on the left.

As for full-back that are great at attacking AND defending... Well, you can count them on fingers of one hand. It's hard to get one of those.

As for Matić, he is DMF for me. Not classic Makelele-type DMF, but surely a DMF, more than CMF.

[Tomo 21,733]

6 hours ago, DYC. said:

Oh dear Henrique, you're reading what you want to read. You implied Azpilicueta is a decent defender and Cole being so much better. I disagreed and said he's a fantastic defender. I even said he's poor on the ball and in attack and now you're talking about what Cole offered going forward. Even talking about what fullback should offer. I said he's a fantastic defender. Not that he's brilliant all-round fullback.

Yes, Cole did often beat Ronaldo. It's always mentioned. The thing about that is Cristiano was 18-22/23 in those days. And the left-winger Ronaldo is two, three times the player right-winger Ronaldo was. Even better. Dani Alves always beat him 1-on-1 in the Clasicos an Alves isn't even a top defender. And Cole beating Ronaldo doesn't change the fact that he would also get outmaneuvered by those I mentioned before.

But before you misread things again, I realise Cole is better than Azpilicueta. Much better.

I don't think Cesar is as bad going forward as made out, obviously not Cole quality but I think it was more instrucions from Jose than lack of ability in his part.

The few times he ventured forward last season he made a positive impact, prime example Diego Costas winner at Anfield.

Also he has nearly netted twice in three games under Hiddink, which only strengthens my argument that he was shackled under Jose going forward.

[DYC. 7,542]

20 minutes ago, Tomo said:

I don't think Cesar is as bad going forward as made out, obviously not Cole quality but I think it was more instrucions from Jose than lack of ability in his part.

The few times he ventured forward last season he made a positive impact, prime example Diego Costas winner at Anfield.

Also he has nearly netted twice in three games under Hiddink, which only strengthens my argument that he was shackled under Jose going forward.

Never said he was terrible. But it's not good either. Moments yeah but consistently, no. If so, he'd be a no-brainer for Spain. But he isn't because of his ability going forward.

I think Azpilicueta also suffers in terms of rep because of his team mates. Cole played with Carvalho, prime Terry and prime Ivanovic/Ferreira. That helps. But then again, defensive fullbacks are out of style. More is demanded. The funny thing is a poor defender but strong attacker will receive far more praise than the opposite, which is silly but what can you do.

But to question Azpiliceita's ability to defend is something I just don't understand. Bar Lahm, I don't see a better defender and vast majority doesn't even compare. He's Chelsea's best defender by far, I'd trust him at CB.

[Henrique 9,133]

18 hours ago, DYC. said:

Oh dear Henrique, you're reading what you want to read. You implied Azpilicueta is a decent defender and Cole being so much better. I disagreed and said he's a fantastic defender. I even said he's poor on the ball and in attack and now you're talking about what Cole offered going forward. Even talking about what fullback should offer. I said he's a fantastic defender. Not that he's brilliant all-round fullback.

Yes, Cole did often beat Ronaldo. It's always mentioned. The thing about that is Cristiano was 18-22/23 in those days. And the left-winger Ronaldo is two, three times the player right-winger Ronaldo was. Even better. Dani Alves always beat him 1-on-1 in the Clasicos an Alves isn't even a top defender. And Cole beating Ronaldo doesn't change the fact that he would also get outmaneuvered by those I mentioned before.

But before you misread things again, I realise Cole is better than Azpilicueta. Much better.

 

I'm not misreading things. Sometimes the noise in communication can be cause by the emissary. In my first post I said Azpi is not Cole quality, and you said something like "bullshit, Cole was embarrassed by the likes of Walcott, and Azpi is fantastic". Next time you should just avoid the noise.

[Henrique 9,133]

11 hours ago, DYC. said:

Never said he was terrible. But it's not good either. Moments yeah but consistently, no. If so, he'd be a no-brainer for Spain. But he isn't because of his ability going forward.

I think Azpilicueta also suffers in terms of rep because of his team mates. Cole played with Carvalho, prime Terry and prime Ivanovic/Ferreira. That helps. But then again, defensive fullbacks are out of style. More is demanded. The funny thing is a poor defender but strong attacker will receive far more praise than the opposite, which is silly but what can you do.

But to question Azpiliceita's ability to defend is something I just don't understand. Bar Lahm, I don't see a better defender and vast majority doesn't even compare. He's Chelsea's best defender by far, I'd trust him at CB.

Azpi is good defending, there is no doubt about it, and there is reason why he became a Jose favorite. He barely make mistakes or is caught out of position when everything is working, but again I don't see anything special about what he does. For me there is no such thing lile "all-round fullback", because full back is a position that requieres balance between defending and attacking, of course of full-backs strongest points are attacking, while others are defending, but a full-back tha can't defend, is very limited one, and same happens to the ones that can't attack.

Azpi is just not good enough with the ball on his feet. Its not uncommong to see he emabarrasing himself during the games, like passing the ball to the opponent or even not being able to dominate the ball. He is the typical one dimensional player that Jose favored since 2013.

[BlueLyon 9,359]

1 hour ago, Henrique said:

Azpi is good defending, there is no doubt about it, and there is reason why he became a Jose favorite. He barely make mistakes or is caught out of position when everything is working, but again I don't see anything special about what he does. For me there is no such thing lile "all-round fullback", because full back is a position that requieres balance between defending and attacking, of course of full-backs strongest points are attacking, while others are defending, but a full-back tha can't defend, is very limited one, and same happens to the ones that can't attack.

Azpi is just not good enough with the ball on his feet. Its not uncommong to see he emabarrasing himself during the games, like passing the ball to the opponent or even not being able to dominate the ball. He is the typical one dimensional player that Jose favored since 2013.

Yet you thrown a video of one of his defensive mistakes suggesting he was defensive liability. Make up your mind.

 

Point is if he was playing on right, he would be more comfortable on ball. Not Alaba, but still. And if we had a proper counter weight on other side in sense of a more offensive fb who has good skills and can cross instead of Ivanovic, that would be perfect. 

I will always prefer a fb who can defend than one who is a fraud at that. Attacking is just a plus. If you have a fb who can do both you are extremely lucky. 

But Azpi has other qualities, such as putting his body on the line and fighting till the end, so he certainly isnt the one who dissapointed this season, is average, or should be replaced like Cesc, Iva etc as you suggested.

[manpe 10,861]

Azpi would play at a higher level on the right side imo. The time and tempo we lose when he shifts the ball to his right and passes back instead of breaking forward and doing something more dangerous with his favourite foot often breaks our momentum. He is one of our better crossers, but he doesn't get to display that often enough. Azpi and Baba would make us a lot more dangerous in attack, because Ivanovic is useless in that and the problem with Azpi playing on the left we all know.

[Henrique 9,133]

5 hours ago, BlueLyon said:

Yet you thrown a video of one of his defensive mistakes suggesting he was defensive liability. Make up your mind.

 

Point is if he was playing on right, he would be more comfortable on ball. Not Alaba, but still. And if we had a proper counter weight on other side in sense of a more offensive fb who has good skills and can cross instead of Ivanovic, that would be perfect. 

I will always prefer a fb who can defend than one who is a fraud at that. Attacking is just a plus. If you have a fb who can do both you are extremely lucky. 

But Azpi has other qualities, such as putting his body on the line and fighting till the end, so he certainly isnt the one who dissapointed this season, is average, or should be replaced like Cesc, Iva etc as you suggested.

The post was a simple answear to a previous suggesttion that Azpi was so good that he can't even be compared with Fabregas. Fabregas is a boring player, but is definetely more important than Azpi, and I rather have Fabregas than Azpi in my squad. People say he is superb, when actually he is correct in the basic of defending. Its the same reason why people were saying Cahill was world class months ago: he usually doesn't make those horros mistakes that Luiz used to do, bu he has never been better than average. Terry is still better than Cahill, even if his best years are long gone.

A fullback that can defend is obiously a better option than one that is superb attacking but a fraud defending (but this kind of player are usually guys that should be playing as wingers rather than full back), but I a good full back is the one that find the balance. For me Azpi is not even decent going forward, he is pretty bad. As a whole he is average. 

[King Deschain 24]

I agree with you on this Henrique. Azpi is ok...nothing compared to what we've had in recent years (Gallas and Cole come to mind).

Ivanovic of last year was superior to Azpi if you ask me. Azpi brings nothing offensively and is too small to be an intimidating defender. I also agree that Terry is better than Cahill and Zouma will surpass Cahill in the depth chart after this season.

The entire back line needs an overhaul (excluding Zouma) in my opinion. Gotta give some of our young talent a chance to prove their worth or start shopping.

[Gilvorak 3,734]

Henrique is spot on. Azpi is massively overrated on here. He should be a depth player used primarily for defensive tasks or injuries but a fullback that is clearly a liability offensively shouldn't be  automatic first choice.