No.10 Role

[FabHazard 655]

i like both players and at the moment the best solution is mata to improve his performance on wing.I think he can do that and come back strongly.

[nadavTKL 1,787]

I look at it also in this way:

Will Mata as the no 10 will allow us to play KDB/Oscar or Lampard in the pivot? i think that in Jose's eyes it wont. Its too soft he thinks.

Oscar allow's that. well i hope, about KDB, but you cant say Lampard and Mata as 2/3 from the players in the middle never sounded weak defensively.

In the last few years we were easily broken, out of shape, realy soft in the middle of the park, and Mou thinks part of it is Mata and what he doesent do when he doesnt score or creat. I say lets see the progress, lets see what Mou is talking about.

Bottom line, Mata could still show is brilliance from RW. Got some competition there but its up to him.

[Jcar92 66]

basel game was one of the most pathetic performances i have seen from chelsea. we had no penetration, we had no chance and the goal was one where the basel center-back simply switched off. we were lucky to be 1-0 up. salah could have put basel up twice in the first half itself. and hence i said we would not have been in that position. we would have been easily controlling the game like we always do with mata. that is what i meant to say.

"we would have been easily controlling the game like we always do with mata." Maybe that's what Mourinho thought when he put Mata on the field... But, well, it seems that the idea did not go that well.

[Jcar92 66]

i like both players and at the moment the best solution is Oscar to improve his performance on DLP. I think he can do that and come back strongly.

Come on Barbara, come kill me! LOL. Even the "come back" worked(defeeeeence)!

Also: Flamenguista e porcaria? Pleonasmo Herp Derp XD

[Barbara 15,149]

so we are just gonna say that cech and DD single handedly won us the CL??? and discard any of the smallest contribution from any of the players. i mean in matches where we went beyond the half line only a number of times, u want some solid evidence of what mata did? seems fair. anyways i can remember mata assisting rambo in the FA cup final when we were actually playing football, and that was not from a frigging corner.

i remember him against tottenham in the FA cup semi and he was brilliant. the list goes on and one... u interested?

also the argument was if schurlle is a better winger than mata or not. tell me what schurlle has done and i ll shut up.

Well, first of all, I didn't mention the FA Cup because someone just as glorious as Mata isn't FA Cup profile, is he? I mean, that's the highlight of his career? Deciding FA Cups against the likes of Spurs?

Second of all, of course DDA and Petr weren't the only ones, it was a massive collective effort that this team seems to only make in situations like those (which bothers me btw). They were the main two though, not the only ones. Who won Bayern UCL title? Or took Dormund to the final playing at the same level as Bayern? Or maybe a fairer question, who could Bayern, ManUtd, Barcelona, Dortmund really count on when things got tough? Who's that guy that made a goal happen when the team just couldn't make it happen. Or that guy that made everything easy?

Third of all, my argument about Schurrle, Kevin and Willian is that they're better wingers than Oscar (which isn't that difficult to find, really). I never said they were better than Mata or more suited to Mata to the wings. Although someone (maybe even you) made a more than relevant point. If Mata is a liability (in José's head) because of his inability to defend in the middle, how come can he be better in the wing? It makes no sense as normally the fastest players go to the flanks and Mata is really one of our slowest players (the slower by a mile among the AM's)

I hate diminishing Mata's importance, but if someone who had been in coma for the last two years come here and read this thread they would think Mourinho is dismissing the best CAM since Maradona and that Chelsea had won at least a treble in 2011/12 or 12/13 and that we outplayed the opposition while doing so because a genius solved us the matches. I mean I'm not too sold in Mourinho's plan (the big pic one, the short term I am) - no one is giving him the benefit of the doubt [which is okay, you give faith and support to whoever you want, for the reasons you want], but the main argument you guys use to say Mourinho is crazy is that Mata has been our best player in the past two seasons when we had weak seasons. We continued to suck against better competition and not once in big, big stage matches I remember Mata doing something that saved us. We were a level or two behind all big teams we played, UCL, EPL, SuperCup and we struggled with a certain kind of opposition (weaker opposition) because we couldn't find a way to go through their tight defences. Is it all Mata's fault? No, of course not, but what exactly are you guys giving him credit for? 12 assists last season in EPL when only 7 or 8 didn't come from set pieces (if I'm not wrong - I remember reading it somewhere). I'd understand all the buzz if the guy had raped the oppositions like some guys in big teams do (van Persie, Robben, Ribery, Iniesta, Xavi, etc), but he hasn't - maybe except the FA Cup if you want him to have some credit. When things got tight we had to rely on Lampard, Cech, Drogba and Ramires to get things done more than we relied on Mata.

Mourinho could be wrong - chances are he will as he's betting on a boy (Hazard) and relying on another boy (Oscar) to make the transition to something he envisions as the Chelsea of the future, the Chelsea that can be at the same level as those 4 big teams in the world now. He's objective and Roman's is that. They don't want to only win UCL, they want to it by being the side that deserved winning or that many saw winning it from months prior. A real contender. They want us to be a force to be reckoned with at the EPL, UCL and else. But he's taking a huge risk by making two boys the foundation of that when one of them is only opening the way for the other. They aren't the two guys that will shine, one will pave the way for the other.

Again I think Mata is a better player than Oscar (I have been stating this since the beginning)- Oscar might be more useful to us and overall he's more complete - but Mata is still a better player at least when you look at him as a classic #10. He's just not the god Chelsea fans make him out to be. Spaniards don't rate him that high - unless they're Chelsea fans - and I'll tell you what, in terms of worshiping their own, there's only one country that comes ahead of Argentina and that's Spain (they're even annoying at many times thinking they're the best thing on earth) - many spaniard fans favor 2-3 others AM in the squad ahead of Mata (not CAMs). They agree he's a great player, but they don't see him as this guy I read here. In other teams a guy like him - who's unfit now - would fight for the position and it'll be normal. Here is not only an aberration, but also a blasphemy. I don't get it. If he carried his level, I'd understand 100x better, but he's been sucking monkey balls (to his own levels)...

HOLY SH... I'm scared of you, please don't kill us all.

Don't be, I'm nice, but sometimes it seems like people only want to see one side of the story and want to use that one side of the story to make everything factual. Let's at least see two sides? Three sides? There are many sides to this story and I think Eden Hazard's is one of the biggest even if it's not directly involved. I might as well just vote for Mata as the best CAM (I didn't vote for either because the question doesn't even make sense in my head, Mata is the obvious choice, hands down) although I don't think we're making the right question to start with. Few Chelsea fans seem to support Mourinho now knowing that 1) he needs time 2) he's entitled to make mistakes just like any other.

Also guys, I'm a very outspoken and direct girl and my written messages come much more aggressive than I sound. I just mean I don't think it's fair, that one side of the story is being completely overrated while others sides are being overlooked, but you're all entitled to think as much. Sometimes it feels like I'm trying to take away the right of others think like that because that's how I've expressed my thoughts since I was a kid. I should be softer for my own sake - especially on written communication. We are all entitled to have opinions, and we can think whatever we want and I think a forum is a place to have almost all opinions (some opinions - not seen in this thread I guess - are too much to my stomach, lol).

[kellzfresh 7,229]

Mou always like being compact in the middle and have fast wingers on the flanks. So mou wants mata to develop his defensive side to help the team to be compact. (see how brazil play)

I just wish mou didnt say this in public though.

[Barbara 15,149]

We are always in transition because the managers keep getting fired... Agree that has to play, but not as the main player, senior od the team. Hazard is not playing worst because of the lack of Mata at his side.

And i'm sorry to anyone that disagree... But i don't think that Hazard has the talent to be at Messi or C. Ronaldo class. He is a good player? Hell yes. But not at this class. Neymar may be the Man.

I actually rate both Hazard and Neymar at the same level and I think at their best they'll be a step down Ronaldo and Messi - which is already out of this world good. But the fact that Neymar does play by Messi's side may help him and give him something Eden doesn't have in our side - which maybe can be a reason for him to move to RM. I don't doubt it at all that Flo Perez would want him in a couple of years if he improves as much as I expect. The more galacticos the best in his head, even if it's overpriced, overdone and sometimes stupid (like letting Ozil go because of Bale. ozil >>> bale. Don't know if it'll always be like that, but I can see it like that this season for sure)

[Jcar92 66]

Well, first of all, I didn't mention the FA Cup because someone just as glorious as Mata isn't FA Cup profile, is he? I mean, that's the highlight of his career? Deciding FA Cups against the likes of Spurs?

Second of all, of course DDA and Petr weren't the only ones, it was a massive collective effort that this team seems to only make in situations like those (which bothers me btw). They were the main two though, not the only ones. Who won Bayern UCL title? Or took Dormund to the final playing at the same level as Bayern? Or maybe a fairer question, who could Bayern, ManUtd, Barcelona, Dortmund really count on when things got tough? Who's that guy that made a goal happen when the team just couldn't make it happen. Or that guy that made everything easy?

Third of all, my argument about Schurrle, Kevin and Willian is that they're better wingers than Oscar (which isn't that difficult to find, really). I never said they were better than Mata or more suited to Mata to the wings. Although someone (maybe even you) made a more than relevant point. If Mata is a liability (in José's head) because of his inability to defend in the middle, how come can he be better in the wing? It makes no sense as normally the fastest players go to the flanks and Mata is really one of our slowest players (the slower by a mile among the AM's)

I hate diminishing Mata's importance, but if someone who had been in coma for the last two years come here and read this thread they would think Mourinho is dismissing the best CAM since Maradona and that Chelsea had won at least a treble in 2011/12 or 12/13 and that we outplayed the opposition while doing so because a genius solved us the matches. I mean I'm not too sold in Mourinho's plan (the big pic one, the short term I am) - no one is giving him the benefit of the doubt [which is okay, you give faith and support to whoever you want, for the reasons you want], but the main argument you guys use to say Mourinho is crazy is that Mata has been our best player in the past two seasons when we had weak seasons. We continued to suck against better competition and not once in big, big stage matches I remember Mata doing something that saved us. We were a level or two behind all big teams we played, UCL, EPL, SuperCup and we struggled with a certain kind of opposition (weaker opposition) because we couldn't find a way to go through their tight defences. Is it all Mata's fault? No, of course not, but what exactly are you guys giving him credit for? 12 assists last season in EPL when only 7 or 8 didn't come from set pieces (if I'm not wrong - I remember reading it somewhere). I'd understand all the buzz if the guy had raped the oppositions like some guys in big teams do (van Persie, Robben, Ribery, Iniesta, Xavi, etc), but he hasn't - maybe except the FA Cup if you want him to have some credit. When things got tight we had to rely on Lampard, Cech, Drogba and Ramires to get things done more than we relied on Mata.

Mourinho could be wrong - chances are he will as he's betting on a boy (Hazard) and relying on another boy (Oscar) to make the transition to something he envisions as the Chelsea of the future, the Chelsea that can be at the same level as those 4 big teams in the world now. He's objective and Roman's is that. They don't want to only win UCL, they want to it by being the side that deserved winning or that many saw winning it from months prior. A real contender. They want us to be a force to be reckoned with at the EPL, UCL and else. But he's taking a huge risk by making two boys the foundation of that when one of them is only opening the way for the other. They aren't the two guys that will shine, one will pave the way for the other.

Again I think Mata is a better player than Oscar (I have been stating this since the beginning)- Oscar might be more useful to us and overall he's more complete - but Mata is still a better player at least when you look at him as a classic #10. He's just not the god Chelsea fans make him out to be. Spaniards don't rate him that high - unless they're Chelsea fans - and I'll tell you what, in terms of worshiping their own, there's only one country that comes ahead of Argentina and that's Spain (they're even annoying at many times thinking they're the best thing on earth) - many spaniard fans favor 2-3 others AM in the squad ahead of Mata (not CAMs). They agree he's a great player, but they don't see him as this guy I read here. In other teams a guy like him - who's unfit now - would fight for the position and it'll be normal. Here is not only an aberration, but also a blasphemy. I don't get it. If he carried his level, I'd understand 100x better, but he's been sucking monkey balls (to his own levels)...

Don't be, I'm nice, but sometimes it seems like people only want to see one side of the story and want to use that one side of the story to make everything factual. Let's at least see two sides? Three sides? There are many sides to this story and I think Eden Hazard's is one of the biggest even if it's not directly involved. I might as well just vote for Mata as the best CAM (I didn't vote for either because the question doesn't even make sense in my head, Mata is the obvious choice, hands down) although I don't think we're making the right question to start with. Few Chelsea fans seem to support Mourinho now knowing that 1) he needs time 2) he's entitled to make mistakes just like any other.

Also guys, I'm a very outspoken and direct girl and my written messages come much more aggressive than I sound. I just mean I don't think it's fair, that one side of the story is being completely overrated while others sides are being overlooked, but you're all entitled to think as much. Sometimes it feels like I'm trying to take away the right of others think like that because that's how I've expressed my thoughts since I was a kid. I should be softer for my own sake - especially on written communication. We are all entitled to have opinions, and we can think whatever we want and I think a forum is a place to have almost all opinions (some opinions - not seen in this thread I guess - are too much to my stomach, lol).

Hey, wait, you didn't get it. I thought you were right... and at the same time funny. Don't know why but i liked hahaha ^^

[Blue Gino 377]

If playing in the World Cup for Spain is important to Juan, then wouldn't it make sense that he put in the work and press opponents the way Hazard and Oscar do? Jose's asking Mata to put in the same work ethic others are and what's wrong with that? 2-time Chelsea player of the year, but none of that means shit to Jose, you have to earn it in his team. Just ask KDB who's a regular in Belgium's NT, it don't mean shit if you don't put in the hard work on the training ground and matches. Oscar has earned his place thus far and Mata can either fight or start asking his Dad to pay visits to other club's luxury boxes in January.

[Barbara 15,149]

Come on Barbara, come kill me! LOL. Even the "come back" worked(defeeeeence)!

Also: Flamenguista e porcaria? Pleonasmo Herp Derp XD

you do know I'm only 100km away from you. You're asking me to kill you! Beware of what you wish for

There are two words that make me cringe every time I see them together Oscar and pivot (also translated as b2b, DLP and whatever else). I'm a bit radical on that (and I guess much else), but either Oscar plays CAM or doesn't play. For me it's simple. If I don't want Mata in the CAM to compromise our whole system and working engine, why will I want Oscar where he'll be mediocre just for the sake of having him play? Sell him to Flamengo if they want to play him in the wing or the '2' in the formation.

edit: for the Portuguese part: We are shit, and it's redundant, still have more national league titles and have never been relegated (not sure we'll escape the latter this year)

[Barbara 15,149]

If playing in the World Cup for Spain is important to Juan, then wouldn't it make sense that he put in the work and press opponents the way Hazard and Oscar do? Jose's asking Mata to put in the same work ethic others are and what's wrong with that? 2-time Chelsea player of the year, but none of that means shit to Jose, you have to earn it in his team. Just ask KDB who's a regular in Belgium's NT, it don't mean shit if you don't put in the hard work on the training ground and matches. Oscar has earned his place thus far and Mata can either fight or start asking his Dad to pay visits to other club's luxury boxes in January.

I guess he's quite aware for VdB there are 3-5 players ahead of him in Spain's AM - 3 of which I agree with, the other two, not really.

[kellzfresh 7,229]

If playing in the World Cup for Spain is important to Juan, then wouldn't it make sense that he put in the work and press opponents the way Hazard and Oscar do? Jose's asking Mata to put in the same work ethic others are and what's wrong with that? 2-time Chelsea player of the year, but none of that means shit to Jose, you have to earn it in his team. Just ask KDB who's a regular in Belgium's NT, it don't mean shit if you don't put in the hard work on the training ground and matches. Oscar has earned his place thus far and Mata can either fight or start asking his Dad to pay visits to other club's luxury boxes in January.

mata is a nice guy, im sure he'll develop his style like mourinho wants for the good of the team. There is a reason why delbosque doesnt like him in spain and im sure he'll want to rectify his game style to get in.

@barbara, why dont people from spain rate mata highly, ive met some of them and they even see carzola and silva ahead of him which is weird...

[Cech's helmet 220]

The thing with Mourinho is he sometimes talks BS. he says we want to play a game where we keep possession, be the dominant team etc. but why did we park the bus vs Bayern/Man utd? we barely played football vs Bayern and United. the only time we played some nice football was the first 20 minutes vs Hull. this team is still the same. we don't have center midfielders who can control the match. we have defenders like Luiz and Cahill passing the ball from the back to our forwards, when our center midfielders should be doing that. Lampard/Ramires/Mikel/Essien are all woeful.

Oscar should be CM. Mata should be no10. his first touch allows him to play with his back behind the goal. he can keep the ball in tight spaces, Oscar loses possession a lot, because hes simply nowhere near Hazard and Mata in terms of controlling the ball and keeping it in his feet. he is at his best when he has space. he's not going to create that bit of magic that Mata and Hazard can do.

[FabHazard 655]

The thing with Mourinho is he sometimes talks BS. he says we want to play a game where we keep possession, be the dominant team etc. but why did we park the bus vs Bayern/Man utd? we barely played football vs Bayern and United. the only time we played some nice football was the first 20 minutes vs Hull. this team is still the same. we don't have center midfielders who can control the match. we have defenders like Luiz and Cahill passing the ball from the back to our forwards, when our center midfielders should be doing that. Lampard/Ramires/Mikel/Essien are all woeful.

Oscar should be CM. Mata should be no10. his first touch allows him to play with his back behind the goal. he can keep the ball in tight spaces, Oscar loses possession a lot, because hes simply nowhere near Hazard and Mata in terms of controlling the ball and keeping it in his feet. he is at his best when he has space. he's not going to create that bit of magic that Mata and Hazard can do.

I agree with you .Absolutely correct

[Barbara 15,149]

mata is a nice guy, im sure he'll develop his style like mourinho wants for the good of the team. There is a reason why delbosque doesnt like him in spain and im sure he'll want to rectify his game style to get in.

@barbara, why dont people from spain rate mata highly, ive met some of them and they even see carzola and silva ahead of him which is weird...

I have no idea... I mean, I feel here he's overrated and there he's underrated. I see him somewhere in the middle of both things.

He's a really good guy, but I guess he doesn't fit VdB philosophy much because he's objective, practical and lethal, in Spain they prefer the never ending "too-much-sex-for-few-orgasms" style of football known as annoying tikitaka. Mata doesn't beat about the bush... he simply does it. They don't like this directness I guess. They're crazy.

[kellzfresh 7,229]

I have no idea... I mean, I feel here he's overrated and there he's underrated. I see him somewhere in the middle of both things.

He's a really good guy, but I guess he doesn't fit VdB philosophy much because he's objective, practical and lethal, in Spain they prefer the never ending "too-much-sex-for-few-orgasms" style of football known as annoying tikitaka. Mata doesn't beat about the bush... he simply does it. They don't like this directness I guess. They're crazy.

The problem people dont understand is that, benitez and mourinho use completely different systems.

Benitez used more of 4-4-1-1 with mata behind torres. This meant that mata never needed to defend much since 4 people were directly behind him.

But now Mourinho uses 4-2-1-3 where the AM is closer to the pivot than the wingers. This meas that the AM have to defend more because they are needed to keep the midfield compact.

What do people want mourinho to do? Do they want him to change his tactics to benitez own because it suits mata?

All mourinho wants is for mata to adjust to the new tactics. And i know he said this in public to motivate mata to play better, he used it on benzema and it worked a lot.

[Badboy 1,526]

Mourinho doesn't like mata purely because he doesn't dribble and take the ball on himself ever. I'm shocked people in this thread have missed that out. I honestly think that is more the problem then defensive work. A cam has to have a certain level of ''go it alone'' in certain situations and mata hasnt got that. Mata is the superior player because his passing and vision alone is far greater then that of the brazilian ! Mourinho believes you can get away with playing a lazy player like deco and Wesley in slower more technical leagues but not the premier league.

[Cech's helmet 220]

The problem people dont understand is that, benitez and mourinho use completely different systems.

Benitez used more of 4-4-1-1 with mata behind torres. This meant that mata never needed to defend much since 4 people were directly behind him.

But now Mourinho uses 4-2-1-3 where the AM is closer to the pivot than the wingers. This meas that the AM have to defend more because they are needed to keep the midfield compact.

What do people want mourinho to do? Do they want him to change his tactics to benitez own because it suits mata?

All mourinho wants is for mata to adjust to the new tactics. And i know he said this in public to motivate mata to play better, he used it on benzema and it worked a lot.

Why should our best player for the last 2 seasons be "adjusting" his game? I think we have more problems in this team than "Mata not tracking back" why change what's not broken? he didn't need to touch the Oscar/Hazard/Mata trio. Jose needs to go on that training pitch and tell Mikel how to shoot a football, tell Torres how to control a football, tell Terry to get faster, tell Luiz to be more disciplined and tell Ramires how to pass a ball if he's going to go and tell a player who scored and assisted half of our goals last year to adjust to these "new tactics"