Willian

[Tomo 21,681]

Salah hasn't even gotten a chance. I'm positive if Salah got a chance he would finish the season with 10 goals and 10 assists in all comps. Schurrle is in bad form, so no argument there. Willian has poor decision making, vision, and finishing. He isn't good enough to start for Chelsea.

Salah and Schurrle would score and assist more most probably, but that doesn't automatically mean we will be a better team. Mandzukic doesn't score as much as Gomez, but Bayern making that change turned them from a trophy less team to treble winners.

People use to say the same with United and question why Fergie played "average player's", other's questioned Peps sanity when he dropped Henry for Pedro.

More often than not it's the supposedly "average" player's that actually complete a great team.

[Styles 9,790]

He was a fantastic player. For a midtable side though. I can imagine Willian having a similar impact at that level.

I dream of Isco, Koke, Gotze, Reus, looking at possible/realistic options. Or a new centre midfielder and push Fabregas up the pitch, though that's not exactly my favourite option. One of Oscar and Willian is acceptable, two is too much sadly. When the going gets tough, they can't be relied on.

So they both shouldn't be acceptable in all honestly. We shouldn't have to carry role-players in the attack, there should be no exceptions at the highest level.

[Barbara 15,149]

So they both shouldn't be acceptable in all honestly. We shouldn't have to carry role-players in the attack, there should be no exceptions at the highest level.

Actually I believe one of them is necessary for the always-mentioned balance. The two of them together is redundancy and is detracting our attack with their low return.

Mourinho has to pick one of them for certain matches, the other for others and stop with this BS of playing the two of them. It's unacceptable that out of our 3 AMs only one really offers something as an attacking midfield. Oscar + Willian may balance our pressing and our pivot, but they unbalance our attack. One of them is more than enough to offer support to the pivot. All players under Mourinho - including Hazard, the one that had least reason to do it - track back, press, offer something for the collective play. While some are much better at work rate than others, it doesn't mean the others are completely incapable of offering some support.

[DYC. 7,542]

So they both shouldn't be acceptable in all honestly. We shouldn't have to carry role-players in the attack, there should be no exceptions at the highest level.

They can't be relied on to constantly deliver in tough times but it's not like they are completely unable to produce from time to time.

Bayern and Real are probably the only sides in football that can field a starting XI with class players in every position. It's so rare, even if you go back in time and look at old teams (including our own club).

Going through a tough time right now but it's not like the season is ruined, far from it.

[The Skipper 20,593]

No Willian, no balance in the team in the way Jose wants to play that frees our creative players, even Ivanovic down the right side, evident when he doesn't play - whole team was not at the races yesterday.

Couldn't care if he went all season with 0 goals 0 assists as long as I see him charging down people in the 88th minute like I have done almost every time I've seen him when he hasn't been subbed.

Need those worker bees.

How about a worker bee that's productive in the final third as well?

[lionsden 4,689]

So they both shouldn't be acceptable in all honestly. We shouldn't have to carry role-players in the attack, there should be no exceptions at the highest level.

Absolutely right.

Let's assess the first choice attacking options of Europe's elite. Bayern-Robben, Ribery,Muller and Lewadowski - all top class, top performing players even their squad players like Shaqiri and Gotze in particular are superior to some of our first choice attacking players. Real madrid: Ronaldo,Bale,Isco,Rodriguez and benzema: the same as Bayern, Barcelona: Messi, Neymar,Suarez and Iniesta (an out of form iniesta is still significantly better than Oscar and Willian).

For example,Last year before we bought Fabregas and Matic, some posters were trying to argue that there was nothing wrong with Ramires and he was good enough to be our first choice CM. It's a simple concept, to be the best, you have to strive towards perfection in terms of manager and personnel recruitment. once you start settling and compromising, you either slip into abject mediocrity, remain stagnant or fall short of achieving your ultimate objective/aim.

You will never hear Europe elite clubs make excuses and compromise for average and/or perenial underperforming players and that's why they are Europe's elite.

[Styles 9,790]

Actually I believe one of them is necessary for the always-mentioned balance. The two of them together is redundancy and is detracting our attack with their low return.

Mourinho has to pick one of them for certain matches, the other for others and stop with this BS of playing the two of them. It's unacceptable that out of our 3 AMs only one really offers something as an attacking midfield. Oscar + Willian may balance our pressing and our pivot, but they unbalance our attack. One of them is more than enough to offer support to the pivot. All players under Mourinho - including Hazard, the one that had least reason to do it - track back, press, offer something for the collective play. While some are much better at work rate than others, it doesn't mean the others are completely incapable of offering some support.

I'm starting to find the whole balance thing such a cop-out.* I used to argue for the inclusion of certain players for that very reason but, ultimately, that is just not enough at the highest level. I've given up on Oscar completely and have even conceded defeat with Willian (even though I think there's some talent there) because his numbers are ridiculously bad.

I've said this before and I'll say it again: for a club with our resources and aspirations we can and should do better than the likes of Oscar, Willian, Schurrle and Salah.

They can't be relied on to constantly deliver in tough times but it's not like they are completely unable to produce from time to time.

Bayern and Real are probably the only sides in football that can field a starting XI with class players in every position. It's so rare, even if you go back in time and look at old teams (including our own club).

Going through a tough time right now but it's not like the season is ruined, far from it.

But then carrying players that can only produce when the going is easy but who'll fall away when it really matters is setting us up for failure. So when Hazard/Costa get extra attention (which is happening more frequently) and these guys have to take more responsibility the reality is they almost certainly won't step up. So why persist with them?

How about a worker bee that's productive in the final third as well?

People talk as if those two qualities are mutually exclusive but they're not.

Absolutely right.

Let's assess the first choice attacking options of Europe's elite. Bayern-Robben, Ribery,Muller and Lewadowski - all top class, top performing players even their squad players like Shaqiri and Gotze in particular are superior to some of our first choice attacking players. Real madrid: Ronaldo,Bale,Isco,Rodriguez and benzema: the same as Bayern, Barcelona: Messi, Neymar,Suarez and Iniesta (an out of form iniesta is still significantly better than Oscar and Willian).

For example,Last year before we bought Fabregas and Matic, some posters were trying to argue that there was nothing wrong with Ramires and he was good enough to be our first choice CM. It's a simple concept, to be the best, you have to strive towards perfection in terms of manager and personnel recruitment. once you start settling and compromising, you either slip into abject mediocrity, remain stagnant or fall short of achieving your ultimate objective/aim.

You will never hear Europe elite clubs make excuses and compromise for average and/or perenial underperforming players and that's why they are Europe's elite.

That's the reality; other top clubs strive for the best and work around things like balance. We shouldn't handicap ourselves.

[DYC. 7,542]

But then carrying players that can only produce when the going is easy but who'll fall away when it really matters is setting us up for failure. So when Hazard/Costa get extra attention (which is happening more frequently) and these guys have to take more responsibility the reality is they almost certainly won't step up. So why persist with them?

I hear what you're saying but it's not like top players are out there, waiting to be picked up. Top players are scarce, that's what makes them quality. Real and Barca have an appeal the rest of the top sides can't compete with. They're capable of buying just about anyone (though I don't think Barca are a force anymore and I don't see the Neymar-Messi-Suarez trio working out).

Bayern got to the position where they are by buying talented players and developing youngsters at the club. Neuer and Ribery came in as a top talents, but were definitely not top players or household names in football. Gotze is a top talent, one of the very most talented young players for me, but he's not a top player yet imo. Too inconsistent.

Robben was a Real reject. Though already a fantastic player, he was too inconsistent to be labled a top player. Top sides in Europe weren't exactly jumping to sign him back in '09. Javi Martinez was bought for a huge amount of money but it was a gamble. Hardly achieved anything before he joined Bayern. It worked out for them though, but Guardiola doesn't seem to be a fan (of course he's been unlucky with injuries)

Lahm, Alaba, Badstuber, Boateng, Schweini, Muller were developed at the club. Lewandowski and Xabi were high profile signings (comparable to Cesc and Costa). Benatia was high profile-ish after his great season at Roma.

It's not easy. Chels will have to do something similar to assemble a ridiculously talented squad. I doubt they have the pulling power and proper resources (FFP restrictions) to go out and buy those among the best in the game. Utd spent €200 mil (!) on the likes of Rojo, Shaw, Herrera, Blind... Di Maria being the top player. Look at the crap Liverpool ended up with.

[Styles 9,790]

I hear what you're saying but it's not like top players are out there, waiting to be picked up. Top players are scarce, that's what makes them quality. Real and Barca have an appeal the rest of the top sides can't compete with. They're capable of buying just about anyone (though I don't think Barca are a force anymore and I don't see the Neymar-Messi-Suarez trio working out).

Bayern got to the position where they are by buying talented players and developing youngsters at the club. Neuer and Ribery came in as a top talents, but were definitely not top players or household names in football. Gotze is a top talent, one of the very most talented young players for me, but he's not a top player yet imo. Too inconsistent.

Robben was a Real reject. Though already a fantastic player, he was too inconsistent to be labled a top player. Top sides in Europe weren't exactly jumping to sign him back in '09. Javi Martinez was bought for a huge amount of money but it was a gamble. Hardly achieved anything before he joined Bayern. It worked out for them though, but Guardiola doesn't seem to be a fan (of course he's been unlucky with injuries)

Lahm, Alaba, Badstuber, Boateng, Schweini, Muller were developed at the club. Lewandowski and Xabi were high profile signings (comparable to Cesc and Costa). Benatia was high profile-ish after his great season at Roma.

It's not easy. Chels will have to do something similar to assemble a ridiculously talented squad. I doubt they have the pulling power and proper resources (FFP restrictions) to go out and buy those among the best in the game. Utd spent €200 mil (!) on the likes of Rojo, Shaw, Herrera, Blind... Di Maria being the top player. Look at the crap Liverpool ended up with.

All valid points. I understand how difficult it is to build a super talented squad like those mentioned but the idea we have to settle because of that is what I have an issue with. We shouldn't standstill because we have talent in Hazard, Fabregas and Costa and have filler make up the rest of the attack. If anything we should try and take advantage of their talent by giving them better support.

[Tomo 21,681]

All valid points. I understand how difficult it is to build a super talented squad like those mentioned but the idea we have to settle because of that is what I have an issue with. We shouldn't standstill because we have talent in Hazard, Fabregas and Costa and have filler make up the rest of the attack. If anything we should try and take advantage of their talent by giving them better support.

I can see where your coming from but in a lot of cases average player's can end up making a team purely because they put in the donkey work that the superstars aren't willing to do to the same extent.

United are the biggest example, Fletcher and Ji Sung Park on paper weren't good enough for top half sides let alone the top team yet were a key reason United were so successful between 2006-2011.

[Sir Mikel OBE 4,744]

All valid points. I understand how difficult it is to build a super talented squad like those mentioned but the idea we have to settle because of that is what I have an issue with. We shouldn't standstill because we have talent in Hazard, Fabregas and Costa and have filler make up the rest of the attack. If anything we should try and take advantage of their talent by giving them better support.

We have a supporting cast right now, able to produce more.

I know Victor Moses isn't the most star-studded name out there, but look at what he has produced in the league. He is a guy who came come in, and score/assist in this league. That is a perfect supporting cast member we already have. This is more than what Willian has done in attacking.

Keep young players like him that are growing/homegrown, and shift the players who can't produce out. I don't see any reason why we can't have an academy player providing the high work rate willian does. No reason to take up a spot for that.

[DYC. 7,542]

All valid points. I understand how difficult it is to build a super talented squad like those mentioned but the idea we have to settle because of that is what I have an issue with. We shouldn't standstill because we have talent in Hazard, Fabregas and Costa and have filler make up the rest of the attack. If anything we should try and take advantage of their talent by giving them better support.

Yes, of course the club should strife to become better and definitely not settle. But it does take time (and a little bit of luck), even though that sucks. And proper planning. Again, coming back to Bayern, remember them in let's say 2003-2009? Not the most impressive teams. And Barca's legendary team was a side mostly made up out of former youth players.

But I have to say, Tomo made a good point on the last page I think. Fergie's Utd teams weren't exactly superstar packed. And Mourinho has proven to be succesful in the past with teams that weren't as talented as Real and Bayern currently are. Same goes for Klopp and Simeone.

[Styles 9,790]

I can see where your coming from but in a lot of cases average player's can end up making a team purely because they put in the donkey work that the superstars aren't willing to do to the same extent.

United are the biggest example, Fletcher and Ji Sung Park on paper weren't good enough for top half sides let alone the top team yet were a key reason United were so successful between 2006-2011.

Nobody would really describe Fletcher and Ji Sung Park as attacking midfielders. Park was a utility man who covered certain roles in particular games.

Oscar and Willian are supposed to be creative attacking midfielders who create and score goals.

Also, Hazard defends excellently now and still does the business. Costa presses like a mad man and still makes the difference. Even Fabregas, who I had my doubts about, works hard and he still has the ability to make things happen.

[Oscar 441]

If chelsea lost willian and oscar, the lack of pace and atleticism will be exposed.

Matic will get overrun in the midfield, the opposition would run circles on cesc and cahill/ivan would get burned everytime...

Hazard has improved tremendously defensively, but he is no where near the level oscar and willian are..

[Barbara 15,149]

If chelsea lost willian and oscar, the lack of pace and atleticism will be exposed.

Matic will get overrun in the midfield, the opposition would run circles on cesc and cahill/ivan would get burned everytime...

Hazard has improved tremendously defensively, but he is no where near the level oscar and willian are..

That's why I'm proposing we stick with one of them, and then work from there.

Thing is Terry can do a job, but he's way too slow and when the pivot has problems, his slowness will be exposed.

Cahill has always been an average player (couldn't get tired of saying that in the Luiz-Cahill debacle, although people thought the ones judging Cahill were just Luiz's fangirls) that had a system that protected him to the most and allowed him to be in the team.

Ivanovic is like kamikaze. It hurts me to admit that - because I love him and how much he gives in each match - but while he sometimes offer something good in the attack, very often he exposes the back. And I think Mourinho knows that and that's why he insists on playing Willian there, so he can try to reduce the exposition Iva brings.

I don't have any complaints about our LB. Luís is a great player that I still hope will get used to the league and Azpi - even offering very little in the attack - is a lion.

I don't think we have any problems in our pivot at all - except a more suitable replacement for Cesc.

Then we move to the AMs and it becomes frustrating. Oscar is way too inconsistent (although I expect as much from a player his age), Willian doesn't add ANYTHING to attack at all. With all his faults, Oscar at least tries to link up with Cesc and Eden and they have linked up very well on occasions this season, but then again, Oscar's inconsistency doesn't allow him to carry on.

Hazard has to carry the entire AM on his shoulders more often than not. If we were more balanced in the defense and RB maybe we wouldn't need Willian - let alone Willian and Oscar to bring the outrageous balance. I mean, we need the damn balance because we have a slow defense, a right side completely exposed, because Cahill AND Iva play that side. We worn out our most important player tactically - Matic - and now we're paying for that. But if we had more quality players as many of you have been demanding for a while, we'd be in a better place. It took me a long while to admit that and see beyond my own prejudice of people playing FM in real life.

I don't think we need someone out of this world in the defense, only a player that can do a job. If we were able to find another Azpilicueta for the RB (and that's ironic as he IS a RB) and a fast and decent CB to partner with Terry, we wouldn't need to allow Oscar and Willian in the team in the name of balance and we could have someone there. I think the RW needs to be addressed ASAP - not sure about Reus though, even though I love him - but we'd be deluding ourselves if we think that's the answer to our problems. It may be the answer to our attacking frustration, but what seems like such a great team, isn't all that great if the players I mentioned aren't overachieving or playing amazingly well. And that's why I - and probably others - were so excited about the prospects when the season started. Because some of those 'not-good-enough-for-elite-team' players I just mentioned were performing way above their level in one way or other. Now they're back to the average players they actually are and the team as a whole suffers and we have to sacrifice our attack with workhorses, otherwise results like Spurs' would happen more often than we'd like.

Unfortunately it's a domino effect that reverberates the most in our attack... our defense isn't as good as it should (or as Mourinho believes it is), unless we sacrifice part of our pivot and AM's to cover for it. And from there is downhill.

[mediator 2,026]

I like your post Barbara, one solution could be to play them like this:

Azpi - Ivan - Terry - Luis

[Shakez 755]

That's why I'm proposing we stick with one of them, and then work from there.

Thing is Terry can do a job, but he's way too slow and when the pivot has problems, his slowness will be exposed.

Cahill has always been an average player (couldn't get tired of saying that in the Luiz-Cahill debacle, although people thought the ones judging Cahill were just Luiz's fangirls) that had a system that protected him to the most and allowed him to be in the team.

Ivanovic is like kamikaze. It hurts me to admit that - because I love him and how much he gives in each match - but while he sometimes offer something good in the attack, very often he exposes the back. And I think Mourinho knows that and that's why he insists on playing Willian there, so he can try to reduce the exposition Iva brings.

I don't have any complaints about our LB. Luís is a great player that I still hope will get used to the league and Azpi - even offering very little in the attack - is a lion.

I don't think we have any problems in our pivot at all - except a more suitable replacement for Cesc.

Then we move to the AMs and it becomes frustrating. Oscar is way too inconsistent (although I expect as much from a player his age), Willian doesn't add ANYTHING to attack at all. With all his faults, Oscar at least tries to link up with Cesc and Eden and they have linked up very well on occasions this season, but then again, Oscar's inconsistency doesn't allow him to carry on.

Hazard has to carry the entire AM on his shoulders more often than not. If we were more balanced in the defense and RB maybe we wouldn't need Willian - let alone Willian and Oscar to bring the outrageous balance. I mean, we need the damn balance because we have a slow defense, a right side completely exposed, because Cahill AND Iva play that side. We worn out our most important player tactically - Matic - and now we're paying for that. But if we had more quality players as many of you have been demanding for a while, we'd be in a better place. It took me a long while to admit that and see beyond my own prejudice of people playing FM in real life.

I don't think we need someone out of this world in the defense, only a player that can do a job. If we were able to find another Azpilicueta for the RB (and that's ironic as he IS a RB) and a fast and decent CB to partner with Terry, we wouldn't need to allow Oscar and Willian in the team in the name of balance and we could have someone there. I think the RW needs to be addressed ASAP - not sure about Reus though, even though I love him - but we'd be deluding ourselves if we think that's the answer to our problems. It may be the answer to our attacking frustration, but what seems like such a great team, isn't all that great if the players I mentioned aren't overachieving or playing amazingly well. And that's why I - and probably others - were so excited about the prospects when the season started. Because some of those 'not-good-enough-for-elite-team' players I just mentioned were performing way above their level in one way or other. Now they're back to the average players they actually are and the team as a whole suffers and we have to sacrifice our attack with workhorses, otherwise results like Spurs' would happen more often than we'd like.

Unfortunately it's a domino effect that reverberates the most in our attack... our defense isn't as good as it should (or as Mourinho believes it is), unless we sacrifice part of our pivot and AM's to cover for it. And from there is downhill.

Let me expand on that. Ivanovic probably has instructions to bomb forward because Willian likes to drift inside. When Schürrle plays, Ivanovic doesn't have the space to go wide because André tends to stay wide.

Im probably playing to much football manager, but if we are gonna spend some hard cash in the summer. Signing Pogba will arguably make a bigger impact than adding Reus (altough i like Reus alot). Pogba can play the box-to-box midfielder helping Matic in defense, and Cesc offensively. Cesc has been overall pretty good in the pivot, but against the bigger teams our midfield tends to get bullied pretty hard (City, Tottenham). With an extra CM Fabrégas defensive responsibilty's will lower a ton. Just look at the games against West-Ham and second half Southampton. Cesc enjoyed so much offensive freedom there with Matic and Mikel behind. Just imagine a midfield trio of Matic/Pogba and Fabregas in CAM. Oscar is probably the odd man out, but imo he's still too lightweight to rely upon against the bigger clubs.

Mourinho already really likes Pogba (named him his favorite young player at the World Cup), and i would not be surprised we will bid for him in the summer. I hope Reus comes but let's say Cuadrado would also be fine. A winger that is offensive, but also good in the build up/linkup.

[CurlyHairLikeLuiz 1,625]

That's why I'm proposing we stick with one of them, and then work from there.

Thing is Terry can do a job, but he's way too slow and when the pivot has problems, his slowness will be exposed.

Cahill has always been an average player (couldn't get tired of saying that in the Luiz-Cahill debacle, although people thought the ones judging Cahill were just Luiz's fangirls) that had a system that protected him to the most and allowed him to be in the team.

Ivanovic is like kamikaze. It hurts me to admit that - because I love him and how much he gives in each match - but while he sometimes offer something good in the attack, very often he exposes the back. And I think Mourinho knows that and that's why he insists on playing Willian there, so he can try to reduce the exposition Iva brings.

I don't have any complaints about our LB. Luís is a great player that I still hope will get used to the league and Azpi - even offering very little in the attack - is a lion.

I don't think we have any problems in our pivot at all - except a more suitable replacement for Cesc.

Then we move to the AMs and it becomes frustrating. Oscar is way too inconsistent (although I expect as much from a player his age), Willian doesn't add ANYTHING to attack at all. With all his faults, Oscar at least tries to link up with Cesc and Eden and they have linked up very well on occasions this season, but then again, Oscar's inconsistency doesn't allow him to carry on.

Hazard has to carry the entire AM on his shoulders more often than not. If we were more balanced in the defense and RB maybe we wouldn't need Willian - let alone Willian and Oscar to bring the outrageous balance. I mean, we need the damn balance because we have a slow defense, a right side completely exposed, because Cahill AND Iva play that side. We worn out our most important player tactically - Matic - and now we're paying for that. But if we had more quality players as many of you have been demanding for a while, we'd be in a better place. It took me a long while to admit that and see beyond my own prejudice of people playing FM in real life.

I don't think we need someone out of this world in the defense, only a player that can do a job. If we were able to find another Azpilicueta for the RB (and that's ironic as he IS a RB) and a fast and decent CB to partner with Terry, we wouldn't need to allow Oscar and Willian in the team in the name of balance and we could have someone there. I think the RW needs to be addressed ASAP - not sure about Reus though, even though I love him - but we'd be deluding ourselves if we think that's the answer to our problems. It may be the answer to our attacking frustration, but what seems like such a great team, isn't all that great if the players I mentioned aren't overachieving or playing amazingly well. And that's why I - and probably others - were so excited about the prospects when the season started. Because some of those 'not-good-enough-for-elite-team' players I just mentioned were performing way above their level in one way or other. Now they're back to the average players they actually are and the team as a whole suffers and we have to sacrifice our attack with workhorses, otherwise results like Spurs' would happen more often than we'd like.

Unfortunately it's a domino effect that reverberates the most in our attack... our defense isn't as good as it should (or as Mourinho believes it is), unless we sacrifice part of our pivot and AM's to cover for it. And from there is downhill.

I agree with your post but I have to say I like Oscar playing. He's such a good potential.

Don't forget, our AMs don't really have positions. Wingers drift to each other's sides, #10s swap with wingers, etc. Personally I think that just talking of the firt team, Reus is more important, because our wingers are useless (unless Salah proves us otherwise in the coming games) while Oscar does offer creativity and offensive play. Plus, I quite like Fabregas in the pivot. Getting Khedira as well would be my pref, because then in bigger games we can move Cesc up and bench Oscar - he is still young, after all, and in smaller games rest either Matic or Cesc. After getting Reus, we can bench Ivan because we simply will need a much more defending full back there because imagine Reus will not track back like Willian does, and we already have one too. Luis on the left, then we can rotate Iva and Cahill on the CB spot, while playing Zouma in small games.

I'm almost certainly sure we're not gonna get Reus, though, and I think Chelsea doesn't want Khedira, so basically it's fantasy, unfortunately. Who knows, Jose might surprise me.

We do criticise Jose for lack of rotation, but in attacking and midfield positions at least, it's because the rest of the team is simply sub par.