🇧🇷 Oscar

[OhForAGreavsie 6,074]

no its easy ,,, you actually play one against the other ....

A neat piece of wit which often does the rounds in chess playing circles and which even made it into Darren Brown's act but of course you did say, "I can play chess against..." which is not really true now is it? Maybe saying with instead of against would work and still raise a smile.

If everyone will forgive a little bit of pedantry the joke doesn't really work anyway since the best player, human or computer, will sometimes win as well as sometimes losing against the second best so at least a draw would not always follow.

P.S. I'm not even county standard. Middling to weak club standard at best and I'm no better at bridge. Mind you, I play a lot more bridge than I do chess these days.

[Viper22 2,418]

I'm not using FM or FIFA to state a fact, just saying that Rekin's use of it was nowhere near as bad as CL11 is patronisingly saying it is.

Anyone that watched Firmino and Oscar wouldn't say that Oscar is significantly faster.

Maybe fair enough, but sometimes FIFA/FM do seem to pluck values out of their arse.

Case in point being to compare RVP and Costa from this years FIFA/FM game:

(FM / FIFA)

Costa RVP

Finishing: 17/90 18/91

First Touch: 16 19 (No FIFA stats)

Passing: 14/65/48 16/85/75 (FM/FIFA Short/FIFA Long)

Balance: 13/62 16/59

Composure: 13 17 (No FIFA stats)

They're just the first ones I looked at. Does RVP have more balance under pressure or more composure than Costa? I really don't think so.

And even an area where RVP is deffo better (heading), weirdly Diego is better there. They sometimes make very odd rating is all i'm saying, so it's hard to draw anything from them.

So while they're sometimes not completely wrong, they also sometimes can be. And so it's hard to take anything tangible from the data both games supply.

Not a personal attack, jus' sayin'.

[Dion 2,476]

To be fair, while it is undeniable that Firmino is more creative, has better dribbling and way more flair than Oscar (which makes watching him more pleasant), the few times I could watch him play he missed A HELL LOT of passes, if you get annoyed but Oscar's inconsistent passing you all would go crazy watching Firmino. Still, Firmino is a good player, has a very good work rate and the defensive side of his game is at least on Oscar's level if not better. All in all, I consider them similar players, although I believe Firmino wouldn't be near as good if he was in Oscar's shoes (as Chelsea's nº 10) playing in the EPL.

[Chelsea Legend 11 4,062]

To be fair, while it is undeniable that Firmino is more creative, has better dribbling and way more flair than Oscar (which makes watching him more pleasant), the few times I could watch him play he missed A HELL LOT of passes, if you get annoyed but Oscar's inconsistent passing you all would go crazy watching Firmino. Still, Firmino is a good player, has a very good work rate and the defensive side of his game is at least on Oscar's level if not better. All in all, I consider them similar players, although I believe Firmino wouldn't be near as good if he was in Oscar's shoes (as Chelsea's nº 10) playing in the EPL.

Thank you. I analyzed some data and it backs up what you saw. Firmino passes the ball on the same level as Phil Bardsley(73%). yes he is more pleasing on the eyes because he is a dribbler, but the overall quality of his game is so-so. If we swapped out Oscar for Firmino I really don't see how it improves our team greatly... That's the point I was trying to make.

When you buy a player for 19m you are buying one with a few warts... simple, easy, to the point.

[Yeboii 1,844]

To be fair, while it is undeniable that Firmino is more creative, has better dribbling and way more flair than Oscar (which makes watching him more pleasant), the few times I could watch him play he missed A HELL LOT of passes, if you get annoyed but Oscar's inconsistent passing you all would go crazy watching Firmino. Still, Firmino is a good player, has a very good work rate and the defensive side of his game is at least on Oscar's level if not better. All in all, I consider them similar players, although I believe Firmino wouldn't be near as good if he was in Oscar's shoes (as Chelsea's nº 10) playing in the EPL.

I think he could become back up nr 10 at best here. The grass is always greener on the other side for some posters here...

[Dion 2,476]

Thank you. I analyzed some data and it backs up what you saw. Firmino passes the ball on the same level as Phil Bardsley(73%). yes he is more pleasing on the eyes because he is a dribbler, but the overall quality of his game is so-so. If we swapped out Oscar for Firmino I really don't see how it improves our team greatly... That's the point I was trying to make.

When you buy a player for 19m you are buying one with a few warts... simple, easy, to the point.

I've watched some compilations of him playing today (those sort of 'every time player X touched the ball in the match' videos) just to be sure my memory wasn't tricking me and there's one against Bayern Munich which is particularly relevant to the comparison with Oscar. In that game he was literally what Oscar has been for us in most of these recent matches, he scored once or twice (not too sure, just got home after working pretty much the whole day - exhausted as fuck), but the amount of misplaced/intercepted passes and the amount of times he lost possession trying to dribble is mind blowing, I was truly shocked. I won't be too harsh because it was Bayern after all, but that's the typical Oscar performance of recent, poor overall game but contributing to the score nonetheless - except the very last games Oscar couldn't even do that, but you get the point.

[Oscar 441]

Both ericksen and coutinho lost the ball numerous times today in a somewhat open game...

on whoscored.. Coutinho had a 64 percent pass accuracy. Ericksen had 68 percent. Coutinho was dispossed 3x, while ericksen 2x. Coutinho had 1 key pass and ericksen had 0...

People complain about Oscar, yet, when they say these 2 names as replacements, it really baffles me. If it was silva, pogba, modric, or someone along that line, I can understand completely, even if they don't fit Jose's tactics that much. However, neither ericksen nor coutinho is an upgrade from oscar.

[didierforever 7,349]

i dont get what was wrong in REKIN's argument.

poster A said "oscar is way faster than firmino"

poster B gave the only stats available on pace anywhere to simply say that the difference in their pace is no where as much as he previously thought.

if someone actually read rekin's post, he does say that firmino is slightly slower but not as slow as people would have you believe.

as for people saying its easy to judge who is faster, well i cant do that for players with similar pace. i mean i know who is faster between JT and willian or who is faster between walcott and mertesacker, but i wont bet anything on who is faster between rambo and willian. all you can say is that they are fast and have similar paces.

[Bir_CFC 3,455]

Its pretty elementary really, I don't need some video game to tell me what I can see for myself.

but since you want to use video games as a reference

http://i.imgur.com/oVl7S7M.jpg

http://fmscreenshots.weebly.com/hoffenheim.html

Its says here that Oscar is a 15 in dribbling and firmino is a 16... I would've thought Firmino was wayyyy better...I digress.

Flair Oscar is a 16??? and Firmino is a 17??? Something must be wrong here....

tackling Oscar is a 14 and Firmino is a 10???? Are they not paying attention over there at FM15???

Agility they are equals???

Decision making Oscar is a 15 and Firmino is a 12????

But most astonishing of them all is Oscar is a 16 for vision and Firmino is a 14?? are these scores out of 20?? What about all of Firmino key passes? don't they account for that??

Doesn't look like Firmino is determined enough either, maybe thats why he's still at Hoffenheim.

Hahaha, enjoyed that!

[Bir_CFC 3,455]

If I could pick any #10 for Chelsea it wouldn't be Oscar.

However, the obvious choices don't really fit us and what Jose seems to want from his #10.

In that sense, i'd say we have Willian who can press like Oscar but is one best attackers on a technical level. Just use him.

Who else is there really?

Who can work as hard as Oscar defensively and out produce him offensively?

Sanchez, Koke, Reus, Isco. Anyone else? Not a lot of options really that are clear upgrades.

[kellzfresh 7,229]

Oscar is not my number one choice, which is conflicting because I really like the guy and appreciate what a fully realised Oscar could bring to a team, I just don't think he's going to realise his potential.

But a moment of caution, it has been Oscar who has scored a lot of our best goals and has come up with moments of brilliance as much as others if not more this season.

This.

If I had a magic wand, I'll buy isco to replace oscar as that is my ideal Am. But until that level of quality is available we can't throw away our third highest goals contributer.

Both ericksen and coutinho lost the ball numerous times today in a somewhat open game...

on whoscored.. Coutinho had a 64 percent pass accuracy. Ericksen had 68 percent. Coutinho was dispossed 3x, while ericksen 2x. Coutinho had 1 key pass and ericksen had 0...

People complain about Oscar, yet, when they say these 2 names as replacements, it really baffles me. If it was silva, pogba, modric, or someone along that line, I can understand completely, even if they don't fit Jose's tactics that much. However, neither ericksen nor coutinho is an upgrade from oscar.

The thing with ericksen and coutinho is that they fall under the AMs that are terrible under pressure. Ericksen will practically kick the ball away if he is chased.

But quality like modric, thiago and isco are on another level because they can escape by dribbling easily or use their bodies to win a foul (Busquets way) rather than cheaply losing the ball.

This is the type of quality I'll gladly throw oscar under the bus for, because they have better vision and are better under pressure. But they are few and rare.

[BlueLion. 21,491]

Is it now fashionable to slag off Oscar, then? I suppose so. Mikel is injured and Cahill actually had a good game on Saturday. Ivanovic scored so that spares him for criticism. No Filipe Luis so we can't mock him for being too offensively minded. Can't slag off Drogba too much because he's a legend. No penalty decisions or refereeing debacles to complain about, either. Leaves poor Ossie to feel the brunt of it. We're not satisfied unless we have someone or something to moan about.

I've said it before - you don't measure his productivity in terms of goals and assists, because he'll never be your Frank Lampard or Cesc Fabregas in those regards. He might be operating in the number ten position, but he plays so deep that effectively when we line up he might as well be operating next to Matic and Cesc might as well just stay between Eden and Willian. Oscar is a combative, tenacious little bastard who has one of the highest work rates I've ever seen in a young player.

If you want him to be more like Phil Coutinho, then he can, quite easily. Coutinho is by far the better dribbler but his decision making makes Willian or even Theo Walcott look like Iniesta in comparison. But that would mean us losing a massive degree of our defensive stability, and when we're playing with such a higher defensive block like we are this season we need every player to pull his weight defensively. Look at Liverpool - their front five do next to nothing in a defensive sense. They're entirely reliant on the three centre-backs and the two defensive midfielders to do all the dirty work. If you want us to do the same then that is more than possible. We only open up against the shit sides in the league. In every game where we've scored 3+ goals, Oscar has been outstanding in an attacking sense, with Swansea away being the best and most recent example. When we play with a tighter midfield, he knows he has to do a massive defensive job so you don't see that flair, spark and creative output you might otherwise see.

Face it, people. Under José he's never going to be the next Kaka. But under José he, and Chelsea, will win a fuckload of trophies. We could let him off the leash like we did in his first season under RDM/Rafa, and we'd get picked off by the big clubs and have to settle for third and another Europa League. I know what I'd choose. Every big side needs "mechanical" players who do their job and they do it well. Barcelona have Busquets; Bayern have Alonso; Real have Khedira (when he's fit); City have Fernandinho; United have Blind; Liverpool have Lucas. They are by no means the best players in their sides, but they do a job that allows the players around them more creative licence.

[manpe 10,861]

Barcelona have Busquets; Bayern have Alonso; Real have Khedira (when he's fit); City have Fernandinho; United have Blind; Liverpool have Lucas. They are by no means the best players in their sides, but they do a job that allows the players around them more creative licence.

I know what you mean and I somewhat agree with your post, but all the players you named are either defensive mids or B2B. Actually I view Oscar more as a b2b mid who's position on paper is the nr. 10, but in reality his role is different. Oscar (+Willian) makes it easier for Fabregas to advance. I've noticed a few times in defensive situations Willian and Oscar (both are basically b2b players) drop close to Cesc's zone when he's out of position or simply overloaded in his area. I've no doubt if both him and Willian were given more freedom, they would be less sloppy and more productive in attack and be viewed more as classical playmaker and winger. But we would be conceding shitloads as a result, and we all know this is not the Mourinho way.

[AndersonBLUE 819]

Back at the beginning of the season when I said Oscar was the weak link in the team I was slagged off big time. Fast forward to today and people have started to realize it. He has done nothing remarkable since, sure, he has made a couple assists, but he is not nearly consistent enough or has shown any signs of improvement. I could see it last season too. He has had arguably one good season with us so far. He better buck his ideas up sooner rather than later, sure his work rate is high but he does nothing with it. His passing is awful and seems worse when we are trying to build attacks. He seems a bit better when we are playing on the edge of the opponent's box, he actually looks comfortable, but anywhere else he is utterly average.

[Chelsea Legend 11 4,062]

i dont get what was wrong in REKIN's argument.

poster A said "oscar is way faster than firmino"

poster B gave the only stats available on pace anywhere to simply say that the difference in their pace is no where as much as he previously thought.

if someone actually read rekin's post, he does say that firmino is slightly slower but not as slow as people would have you believe.

as for people saying its easy to judge who is faster, well i cant do that for players with similar pace. i mean i know who is faster between JT and willian or who is faster between walcott and mertesacker, but i wont bet anything on who is faster between rambo and willian. all you can say is that they are fast and have similar paces.

But you can't use FM15 or FIFA as proof because clearly I've exposed why that theory is wrong. He would've been better off to just show me a clip where Firmino is running hard and point that out, similar to Oscar on our first goal against Villa.

[Chelsea Legend 11 4,062]

They are by no means the best players in their sides, but they do a job that allows the players around them more creative licence.

Pretty much everything you wrote culminates on this last piece right here and I think that's where some of his detractors have a hard time coming to grips with. They seem to think that because he's deployed as our ACM that his assignment is to be a playmaker or a traditional no.10.

Our playmakers are Cesc Fabregas and Hazard obviously they are the guys given the most freedom to create.

[Dylan_91 90]

I would love to see highlights of oscars last few games. Think it would be very interesting. He seems to lose the ball and break down so many attacks. I do quite like him though and think he plays much better from a deeper position. He really struggles in tight spaces.

[BlueLion. 21,491]

I know what you mean and I somewhat agree with your post, but all the players you named are either defensive mids or B2B. Actually I view Oscar more as a b2b mid who's position on paper is the nr. 10, but in reality his role is different. Oscar (+Willian) makes it easier for Fabregas to advance. I've noticed a few times in defensive situations Willian and Oscar (both are basically b2b players) drop close to Cesc's zone when he's out of position or simply overloaded in his area. I've no doubt if both him and Willian were given more freedom, they would be less sloppy and more productive in attack and be viewed more as classical playmaker and winger. But we would be conceding shitloads as a result, and we all know this is not the Mourinho way.

That's what I'm trying to point out. I think you've said it better than me - Oscar, forget his position in the Sky infographic in the team line-up. He's effectively a B2B midfielder, as you say. Absolutely agree. I just think people get caught out by the fact he is "supposed" to be a CAM. So was Mikel, but José converted him into a defensive player. He's converting Oscar - a player he clearly loves from the fact he sold Mata and made Oscar his chosen third midfielder - into the sort of role Lampard operated in in his earlier years.

Pretty much everything you wrote culminates on this last piece right here and I think that's where some of his detractors have a hard time coming to grips with. They seem to think that because he's deployed as our ACM that his assignment is to be a playmaker or a traditional no.10.

Our playmakers are Cesc Fabregas and Hazard obviously they are the guys given the most freedom to create.

Agreed. As Manpe said, we could let Oscar/Willian "off the leash". Sometimes we do, against weaker sides, and we end up winning 5-0 or something along those lines (think how good WIllian was at Schalke away, for instance). But if we opened up against PSG, we'd concede a shitload. Sometimes you have to sacrifice a strength to cover up a weakness and that is what Mourinho does with his "defensive" duo of Oscar and Willian.

[didierforever 7,349]

But you can't use FM15 or FIFA as proof because clearly I've exposed why that theory is wrong. He would've been better off to just show me a clip where Firmino is running hard and point that out, similar to Oscar on our first goal against Villa.

fair enough, but i remember watching a video of an antonio valencia run which clocked him to be faster than usain bolt. so separate video clips would hardly have been the ideal source in this case too.

when comparing pace, there is no right or wrong but simply perception. for eg - i will again go back to the rambo-willian comparision. very hard to know who is the pacy one between them and i doubt if a couple of videos would be able to make up my mind.

[AndersonBLUE 819]

Agreed. As Manpe said, we could let Oscar/Willian "off the leash". Sometimes we do, against weaker sides, and we end up winning 5-0 or something along those lines (think how good WIllian was at Schalke away, for instance). But if we opened up against PSG, we'd concede a shitload. Sometimes you have to sacrifice a strength to cover up a weakness and that is what Mourinho does with his "defensive" duo of Oscar and Willian.

It's a fair point but Willian offers more in attack (even when we are playing more defensive) than Oscar does and he is better at tracking and defending, even closing down opponents. I would play Willian in the middle and Cuadrado on the right and drop Oscar considering his last performances. In fact I think Willian is the better player currently.