Formation and Tactics Discussion

[Blue-in-me-Veins 4,067]

It really is unrealistic to be wanting a new DM. We've already spent a hefty amount and our next signings will probably be a RB and a ST. IF we do decide to buy a new CM/DM it will most likely be NEXT summer.

thank you.

[Jype 6,398]

I don't think the 4-2-3-1 formation is the real problem here. Watching Brazil playing with this same formation right now at the Olympics I'm thinking that's what our play is supposed to look like. Hulk, Oscar and Neymar occupy those three spots behind the striker and they are very fluid and swap places all the time and every one of them have been given the freedom to roam around the pitch, making it very hard for the opponents to mark them. With Hazard, Mata and Oscar the quality is definitely there and we should be able to do something similar once they have got to know each other and develop an understanding on the pitch. Trust me guys, the future is very bright. :blue scalf:

[Strike 7,489]

I don't think the 4-2-3-1 formation is the real problem here. Watching Brazil playing with this same formation right now at the Olympics I'm thinking that's what our play is supposed to look like. Hulk, Oscar and Neymar occupy those three spots behind the striker and they are very fluid and swap places all the time and every one of them have been given the freedom to roam around the pitch, making it very hard for the opponents to mark them. With Hazard, Mata and Oscar the quality is definitely there and we should be able to do something similar once they have got to know each other and develop an understanding on the pitch. Trust me guys, the future is very bright. :blue scalf:

sadly that's not happening with us. the opposition lines up with 7-8 defenders and our 4 little attackers run into a brick-wall. midfield needs to support the 4 attackers.

plus yeah, we are not WINNING the ball back in mid. we are actually letting it go past the mid easily

[Jype 6,398]

sadly that's not happening with us. the opposition lines up with 7-8 defenders and our 4 little attackers run into a brick-wall. midfield needs to support the 4 attackers.

plus yeah, we are not WINNING the ball back in mid. we are actually letting it go past the mid easily

I'm not saying it will happen right away, but with Hazard - Oscar - Mata we are set for years to come and maybe we can improve in other areas in the future as well. Not expecting them to be setting the world alight from day one but it's not all doom and gloom as one could assume reading some of these posts.

[Kojo 4,676]

It really is unrealistic to be wanting a new DM. We've already spent a hefty amount and our next signings will probably be a RB and a ST. IF we do decide to buy a new CM/DM it will most likely be next summer.

You really have it in for me, for your own safety you should put me on ignore list

[Magic Lamps 11,692]

Indeed can't see the club spending for more than a RB adn a ST/RW. We'll atleast have a try until Winter before buying a new CM/DM. We lack a bit of quality in that position but perhaps its an opportunity for Romeu or McEachran to demonstrate their ability to step ahead.

ATM a major factor is numbers. We have to get rid of players to buy new ones whilst at CM we are - with regard to numbers - fulled up. Provided Essien and Meireles leave us ( which I wish they would and still trasnfers are not off as Ess is past it and Meireles has always been an average player with a bit of shooting ability and experience )there would be a blatant neccessity, but don't expect the club to rush before. .

As for Mikel, he's always been a decent defensive midfielder, of course he lacks the drive and commitment wich becomes more obvious in a doubole pivot than in a midfield three. aS he's our only viable opiton it leads us back to the initial topic, our system.

I think a 4-3-2-1 interchanging with a 4-3-3 would fit most players individual strengths

-------------Mikel-----------

---Ramires-------Lamps--

-----Mata----------Hazard-

--------------Torres--------

Mikel - works best in a midfield three as the holding midfielder

Ramires - has not quite the technique for RW but his pace, drive, energy are wasted in a double pivot. Best position is RCM

Lamps - always likes to draw back before making his trademark runs, so a classic numer 10 would place him too far in front, whilst his offensive abilities would be limited too much in a double pivot

Mata & Hazard have very much freedom roaming about, interchanging sides both being kinda number 10 AND winger whilst having enough space not to stmap on each others toes.

As for width, I assure u this system would provide our fullbacks the opportunity to sprint forward and otherwise Hazard is a brillant and Ramires a decent winger with their pace, so they could both do a job there by changing position. In case it should have to be really offensively this can easily turn into a 4-1-4-1 with Lamps going next to mata in a double no. 10 hazard left, rambo right, a 4-2-3-1 with either lamps going forward to no 10, mata on wing or lamps withdrawing into double pivot with mikel and rambo on wing or if we need to counter it could be a classic 4-3-3 with mata nd hazard on the wings

[nerry 3]

this guy that started this topic has the biggest vendetta against mikel, biggest tool on this forum....the kojo guy. I do not know why people reply to his views.

[Blue-in-me-Veins 4,067]

You really have it in for me, for your own safety you should put me on ignore list

there is no way we're buying a dm this summer. i dont see it, a rb is a lock in then what? we buy a dm cuz TIOTE is miles better than mikel?! no! we buy the rw so our attack can win us of games for once and be the intimidating factor we're all dreaming of. we're switching from defense to fluidity in attack how can that happen when we're always lookin to the past. nobody said the transformation had to be formed in a fortnight. Rome was not built in a day. and we're in the process of building that empire, and this year will be the test year, we play what we have and if our defense fails we will improve it next summer. and also yes defense is important and if our pivot fails theres always our old reliable 433 so no a dm in not NEEDED now, and @KonohasOrangeFlash, is right bout it coming next summer.

[DDA 9,938]

==========Torres==========

Mata================Hazard

==========Oscar==========

======Mikel====Lampard====

Cole====JT====Luiz====Ivanovic

==========Cech===========

Subs: Marin, Ramirez, Hilarious, Cahill, Sturridge, Hopefully Azpi and Cavani

I would think this starting eleven would be our strongest. It's hard to leave out Ramirez and Cahill and of course my imaginary Cavani but given rotation they would feature in half if down to injury most of the games anyways. Cor It gives me a boner just typing that team down.

[sleazyB 58]

That double pivot was an important part of the champions league campaign last year. We won with DEFENSE. I think our pivot is more than fine, some of you guys sre just looking for something to bitch about Mikel romeu and mikel are all great options at DM, I just worry about Lampard. A player like Xabi Alonso Creates so many opportunities for Real Madrid, that is the element we are lacking.

[Bir_CFC 3,455]

I posted this in another thread, but it makes sense here. And, it's pretty simple really.

4-3-3

Cech

Ivan - Luiz - JT - Cole

Ramires - Mikel - Oscar

Mata - Torres - Hazard

Everyone is in their best position imo, except Mata but we will allow Mata to drift inside and roam as much as he wants since he has Ramires at RCM who will cover everything on the right side. Mata can drift inside and Ramires can make runs down the right overlapping Mata and make runs into space vacated by Mata as he drifts inside.

Oscar on the other side can also go forward when play is switched to the left but he'll make runs to the centre ala Lampard.

The main help with this compared to the double pivot is that we will always have Mikel + another midfielder in the midfield at all times, so always better cover cause honestly counter attacks will be our main threats in 90% of the matches.

When Mata moves center, Ramires moves to the right. Oscar holds with Mikel.

If Oscar moves central as a number 10, Mata stays right and Ramires holds back with Mikel.

Any thoughts?

[Ramzi 233]

I posted this in another thread, but it makes sense here. And, it's pretty simple really.

4-3-3

Cech

Ivan - Luiz - JT - Cole

Ramires - Mikel - Oscar

Mata - Torres - Hazard

Everyone is in their best position imo, except Mata but we will allow Mata to drift inside and roam as much as he wants since he has Ramires at RCM who will cover everything on the right side. Mata can drift inside and Ramires can make runs down the right overlapping Mata and make runs into space vacated by Mata as he drifts inside.

Oscar on the other side can also go forward when play is switched to the left but he'll make runs to the centre ala Lampard.

The main help with this compared to the double pivot is that we will always have Mikel + another midfielder in the midfield at all times, so always better cover cause honestly counter attacks will be our main threats in 90% of the matches.

When Mata moves center, Ramires moves to the right. Oscar holds with Mikel.

If Oscar moves central as a number 10, Mata stays right and Ramires holds back with Mikel.

Any thoughts?

Good stuff, probably the best option with the players we have.

[BleedsBlue 1,549]

Keep Calm and let RDM choose the best formation.

[EskWeston 696]

Based on what i have seen in pre season we are going to make things hard for us playing 4-2-3-1 with Mikel and Lamps as the 2 in midfield. It just isn't working and making things so hard for us get quick attacking moving up the park. I don't think we HAVE to change formation but i would be interested to see a personnel change and have Romeu and Ramires as the midfield 2, much more dynamic and quicker on ball, with a fluid 3 behind Torres of Mata, Hazard and Oscar it would be a really dynamic team. Ramires is much more effective in the middle of the park as is wasted out wide.

[Naked Mole Rat 437]

I posted this in another thread, but it makes sense here. And, it's pretty simple really.

4-3-3

Cech

Ivan - Luiz - JT - Cole

Ramires - Mikel - Oscar

Mata - Torres - Hazard

Everyone is in their best position imo, except Mata but we will allow Mata to drift inside and roam as much as he wants since he has Ramires at RCM who will cover everything on the right side. Mata can drift inside and Ramires can make runs down the right overlapping Mata and make runs into space vacated by Mata as he drifts inside.

Oscar on the other side can also go forward when play is switched to the left but he'll make runs to the centre ala Lampard.

The main help with this compared to the double pivot is that we will always have Mikel + another midfielder in the midfield at all times, so always better cover cause honestly counter attacks will be our main threats in 90% of the matches.

When Mata moves center, Ramires moves to the right. Oscar holds with Mikel.

If Oscar moves central as a number 10, Mata stays right and Ramires holds back with Mikel.

Any thoughts?

Mata is the only reason why we currently use the 4-2-3-1 instead of the familar 4-3-3. When he plays right behind the striker, he's a much better player than he is when he's on the (left) wing. Even when asked to converge to the middle, he wasn't all that effective, and it makes sense. Whether he's allowed to go to the centre or not, if he plays on the wing, he has some positional duties to do, whereas if he's given the typical no. 10 role, he doesn't have to worry about such things. He can just freely roam the pitch, looking for the ball, and when he gets it, he can put a through ball or whatever. There is no doubt that he is currently the most important player on the team in terms of attacking, so it makes sense to build the team around him, and that's why I would like to see us stick to the 4-2-3-1.

[The Rising Sun 711]

While i have full faith in RDM and his abilities as our manager, i dont think he has it in him to drop Lampard from the team, as many Lineups suggest.

I am FOR the 4-4-1-1 formation or 4-1-4-1 formation.

---------CECH----------

Ivan-----Luiz-----Terry-----Cole

Ramires-Oscar-Lampard-Mata

------------Hazard-----------------

------------Torres------------------

While the 4-4-1-1 formation could leave us open in the middle, The only way i can fully support Lampard is if he agrees with this new position as DM-Transition Of play Playmaker, otherwise Mikel/Essien/Romeu deserve that position based on that being their Natural Position.

-------------CECH-----------------

Ivan-------Cahill-----Terry----Cole

---------------Mikel----------------

Marin----Oscar----Lampard----Hazard

--------------Torres-------------------

This 4-1-4-1 formation seems to be the most balanced Formation we can have. Mikel has to break up play at times, and pass it on to Lampard , who then looks for Marin oscar hazard, giving torres the best chances of exploiting space between defenders. The Mikel position can also be occupied by either Romeu/Essien. Now the problem here is that Mata deserves to be in the Attacking 4, and the only person he should replace is Lampard. I did not know much about Oscar, but after watching his performances with Brazil, he is ridiculously good and deserves to be part of the starting 11. It will be a shame to buy a player like him and sit him on the bench.

The advantage of having Lampard in this Formation is that he can do his fair share of defensive duties as well, while Mata is not good at defense at all.

If we were to go with a 4-2-3-1 , then maybe these players would fill the bill

------------CECH------------

IVA----LUIZ----TERRY----COLE

------ESSIEN----LAMPARD------

HAZARD-----OSCAR-----MATA

-----------TORRES---------

In this Formation, my only doubt is Essien. Every comeback that he has made, he has always looked great in his first few appearances, sparking talks such as "the beast is back"

However, this time, everyone knows he has lost his pace, but he looks composed and has looked good IMO. A DM doesnt necessarily need pace, but has to have the intelligence to be in the right places at the right time and be able to throw in tackles. I also prefer Romeu over mikel, but that is a judgement i came to last season itself.

Marin is not yet a starter, simply because he needs to work on his game a bit more and force himself into the team. He has looked good in pre season, but his inability to play for the team in the final third reminds me of sturridge a bit. However, this was pre season so he was trying to impress. Let him win his place in the squad, as he has been injured last season and has not played that often over the last few years. He has great potential though, as long as he takes the right approach to team football.

Do we really need to keep player just because of experience though? Most of us realistically are expecting a 3-4th placed finish, so shouldnt we be able to do that with our world class new players, with more possibly coming?

I love Lampard, yet i would have been happy had he left for LA Galaxy this season. However, im not unhappy that he is still here. Cannot decide what i feel about Lamps, i guess he is a legend and deserves another season here. He has earnt it.

But that creates problems when it comes to the World Class players who are coming in and would otherwise command a starting 11 place, now you wonder which one to choose, and experienced but possibly not as effective as before player(Lamps) as his position is not his anymore, and he has to do another job/another position(DM), for which there are possibly better players who could be playing there.

Anyhow, those were my views!!

[TorontoChelsea 4,064]

The problem with Ramires is not that he doesn't fit in at RW, it's that he doesn't fit into the system Chelsea are trying to bring in. He's a counter-attack player and is at his best when he gets into space where he can use his blazing speed. He's not a particularly good passer nor is he he inventive and he's not a real DM so where does that leave him? Probably as a sub who can provide cover for a number of positions. (and mostly as a defensive substitution for one of the wingers) It's an issue when you have so many different managers using different systems. You end up with quality players that just don't fit in.

[BlueLion. 21,491]

To be fair, di Matteo's system isn't a rigid system with five designated positions. The two holding midfielders are the only consistency to it. In reality, the three forward players are all in 'floating' positions and two of those need to be wider berths to facilitate a wing formation. In essence, it's a 4-2-1-3 when attacking, with either Mata or Hazard (or whoever) pushing onto the wing. I think we'll see something akin to United in 07/08 with Nani/Giggs/Ronaldo rotating on the wings and Scholes or Carrick (or in our case, Essien or Lampard) the attacking midfielder player.

[Kojo 4,676]

To be fair, di Matteo's system isn't a rigid system with five designated positions. The two holding midfielders are the only consistency to it. In reality, the three forward players are all in 'floating' positions and two of those need to be wider berths to facilitate a wing formation. In essence, it's a 4-2-1-3 when attacking, with either Mata or Hazard (or whoever) pushing onto the wing. I think we'll see something akin to United in 07/08 with Nani/Giggs/Ronaldo rotating on the wings and Scholes or Carrick (or in our case, Essien or Lampard) the attacking midfielder player.

Someone said its rigid?

But to have such creative freedom you need am engine in your team, we have Ramires but we lack a good DM.

[Blue-in-me-Veins 4,067]

actually i agree with @The Rising Sun, in fact that 4141. can be our fall back or even lead formation for couple of weeks till oscar and hazard get feet set. the advanded four could have in order: mata, lampard,rambo,hazard. those four with respect to lampard could roam around casuing havoc. its not as pretty as 4231 but i think can hold their own for first coupleweeks of season.

we need to forget about exposure on the wing becasue all top team that play attacking football have to give up something. united give up wings, as do totenham, as do bayern, but hey we have cole and ivanovic, we no longer NEED them as much as before to supprot in attack like past seasons. everytime malouda had ball cole HAD to be there overlapping, if he didnt malouda would have lost ball everytime in attack. players like lampard and mata can easily do one-two's or cross ball across pitch, or give through ball to runnin rambo down centre of field.hazard on the right can beat his man head one, which we have to finally utilize. we have not had this in along ass time, if he can, im sorry when he eventually causes double teams like nani and bale, we no longer would have problems with likes of aston villa, wba, and other lower teams. it frees up space for rambo and torres up top aswell.

on the subject of rabo, if he could be our Yaya toure that 4141 would be unstopable, no doubt about it. in fact i believe our dm would be romeu (if givin chance) because he could really thrive in that system becasue everybody is infront of him and unlike a double pivot, he has four outlets and with his calmness and astitute passing, i reckon he would have field day picking out the options. while on defensive side he probably only has to cover left side more often than right side for rambo could/would most likely cover hazard's ass most of time if he forgets to track back or loses possesion . but from what i've seen hazard has underated defensive game, and if he develops that messi attitude (always chase ball if HE loses it) the more and more i love 4141.

some food for though, for RDM HAS PLAYED 4141 before in opener vs seatle so its not something i pulled out of thin air praying, and hoping we can use like some 352 someone suggested earlier, hahaha