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Cristiano and Messi flopped quite a bit....

I don't see them flopped because they got kicked from every direction. There are factors to that, if you want to talk about flopping, before it comes to being kicked about.

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This is a classic example of being overly critical of our own and overrating or overhyping other players. This is normal. If Hazard was a Man Utd player, the wankfest on here would have been crazy. And that's not a criticism, Barbara. I expect a surgeon to know more about the human anatomy than a geologist for example.

(1) You mention the Belgium matches, okay, let's talk about the Belgium gane and Hazard "fading". Let's take the Russia game for example. It's very common for us casual fans to overstate the importance of a player's individual efforts and understate the team effort. Will James look as good as he does if Colombia was playing poorly, no. Belgium have not been playing well. They have been playing, slow, ponderous, predictable football and have had the unfortunate ignominy of playing two defensive minded teams (at least in the games that Hazard started). This is obviously going to have a negative effect on individual performances, particularly of the forwards. Even more so for Hazard as he got double-marked on that left wing in both games vs Russia and Algeria. He is the only player on the Belgian team that gets this treatment. This is a big problem for him because as been discussed a 1000 times, Vetorghnen (sp?)/ Vermalean are CB's and simply do not support the winger in attack, so Hazard is left in a situation were he has to beat two players OR receives the ball with his back to goal and is closed down quickly. Back to ^^^^^^^ in a moment.

(a) It was only in when Algeria came out to play a little and lost the ball in transition that Hazard had an opportunity to launch a counter and the result was a goal for Mertens.

The Russia game was similar. The first half, stranded on the left side, facing the problems I discussed in (1). It was late in the 2nd half, when Wilmots became less defensive minded and focused on "shape" did he give Hazard a free role and he wrecked havoc on Russia's backline in a 10 minute cameo. He started drifting in to the centre where he was able to influence the game more.

What happens next, Belgium win the ball in transition, Origi lays it to Hazard and he blows by a Russian defender, cutting it back on his "weaker" foot for Origi. Goal for Origi.

So, two key actions when his team are not playing well, when the football is slow and predictable, in searing heat (both those games played at midday), when his coach is tactically inept, he still provides to match-winning moments. Very similar to Messi vs Iran and Bosnia. I dunno about you guys, but that is the mark of a world class player.

(2) It's up to Wilmots to solve the problems in (1), that even we arm-chair experts and analysts can see. Give Hazard a free role. You play with 5 centre-halves for fuck's sake. If not, start him as a 10 where he has more breathing space. Also, stop playing Dembele all the time cos he's been shit for a year or so and start Origi ahead of Lukaku because the USA are coming to defend deep, frustrate and park the bus. It's a shame Vanden Borre got injured because he looks like the only decent fullback in the Belgian team (why didn't he start in 1st two games?)

(3) You said Hazard is "lazy", no he's not. Check the facts. He covers an insane amount of kilometres per game for a winger. People also accused Messi of being lazy, calling him Walkessi and all that silliness. None of them highlighted how Barca's system was not as fluid as before. Iniesta, Xavi and Busquets triumvirate was not as good as before. Pressing game was not as good as before. Pep, the guy responsible for a fair share of the success of that GREAT Barcelona was no longer there. Then comes the "Messi is just walking". . "He's not calling for the ball" etc, without mentioning all the other subtleties. It's the same with Hazard. People, like you (no offense) criticize him for things that are beyond his control instead of looking at the broader picture.

Then the Bale thing is wrong. This is what annoys me. Bale has been known to disappear from games at his time with Tottenham and Madrid. Watch him, he does those exact same things you say Hazard does. Bale does not demand the ball. He is quiet on the pitch. What you did there is what I call overrating the opposition player and underrating our own. I even read someone here put Bale in the same sentence as Messi and Ronaldo. Many players disappear from games for various reasons, Messi included.

You can't deny that Hazard has not suffered from this problem this past season because he's under the best tactician in the world, Mourinho. Almost everything good about our attacking play came through Hazard. Maybe when we have a better team than the average one we saw last season, we can see Hazard in a more fluid system.

It's amazing how many conclusions you come to from a bunch of games. Surely, most of what you said doesn't hold true for the Hazard that we all saw dazzle for Chelsea this past season, so I'm assuming it's mostly based on the World Cup.

All the names thrown around. Reus, Bale, Neymar, Robben, Sanchez Ribery. I won't take any of these players ahead of Hazard. I don't consider any of these players to be better than Hazard, neither do I consider them to have his talent. The thing this guy is able to do with a football is beyond scary. The only winger I put above him is Ronaldo and that guy is not even a winger anymore. The only player I'll swap him for is Messi. And I say this as a football fan, not a Chelsea one.

The only part I disagree with is the last. I think Hazard is on par with most of those names. I'd say it is mostly form the deciding factor between them currently, other than that I agree. Most of all, I loved the organization with all those (1) (2) (a), if I did write all that it would be messy as heck.

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I had to double check if I was still on Hazard's thread as it went pages and pages without his name mentioned.

I don't like to compare players, I say it all the time and like Jason I don't get why we keep comparing, but I agree and disagree about a lot of things that were said individually about some players here.

I'll start with our player, of course. I really don't know if Hazard is better as a LW or a CAM at Chelsea. With his dribbling ability and how the play is much more physical in England than in Spain - where Messi plays more centered, maybe Hazard suits better in the wing - which normally is less populated - than in the middle. If we see 2-3 and even 4 players surrounding him in the wing, how many are we going to see through the middle? Belgium is a completely different story and maybe he's better as a #10 there. Actually I'd need a streak of matches of him playing as a #10 for us to have a proper answer. A lot of people here talk about his potential as fact - which is a big lie. And that's my second point about him. When we compare Hazard with any of those players, sometimes I feel we're comparing the potential rather than the reality - although we're using the other players' reality instead of potential to make the comparison. Fact is - and that's not an opinion - his last goal scored for us that didn't come from a penalty was in February 6th (or some other day in the first week of February). I hate the chances created stats - because it's a big lie - but if people want to use that, be my guest, but you can't use that to compare him to other players, when other players have more goals and assists. It's like intentions - in Brazil we say hell is filled of good intentions. Chances created is all but good intentions, but at the end of the day what counts is assisting and scoring and some matches have different weights. Hazard lacked there, but that's absolutely okay. The same way I defend Oscar for being inconsistent, I defend Hazard for not fulfilling his full potential because they're too young. They're entitled to disappoint our expectations because let me tell you something, many times our expectations aren't fair and sometimes even attainable because we all look to their potential, but we forget they're still under development. So yeah, unfair and sometimes unattainable. But I feel like Hazard gets a lot of slack (not comparing to anyone) because he's a dribbler. People are saying he's criticized because he doesn't score and scorers are more forgiven and have more spotlight than players who assist, but dribblers have the same compared to hard workers or to players with less flair. Hazard is cut a lot of slack simply because his game is more beautiful, but still is far from as effective as it could be. So we have people forgetting he's 23 and people overlooking the many matches he does nothing effectively because he has 130942039434 dribbles per match.

If there was one person that cursed Bale's fee it was me and I even said many times RM didn't even need him. I was partially proved wrong. He's still not worth 100M, but RM did need him and even if he had scored only a handful goals (although he did way more than that), when RM needed him the most he gave the assist or scored the goal. Tap in or not, he was at the right place, at the right time and he didn't disappear or chocked at the big games. That's a winner trademark and he seems to have it. I do agree he's not the most talented. Among all names I read here - Hazard, Cris, Messi, Neymar, Robben, Ribery - Bale is definitely the most limited talent wise, but don't deny his determination to win and his hard work. If Hazard worked half as hard as Bale does - and sorry if it hurts and upsets some of you, I'm not stating this as a fact, but solely as my opinion - he would have at least 50% better numbers than he does. Still Bale is nowhere near Messi and Ronaldo. Nobody is. No matter the numbers, no matter how important the goals and the assists were in the most important games of them season; I agree with whoever said that ever since Messi and Ronaldo people changed the standards. Sorry to disagree with many again, but scoring 30-40 goals a season and 15-25 assists isn't the norm, isn't the standard, that's an exception created by two of the best players of the history of the football who fortunately for us - were born in the same generation. That's not the bar, that's not raising the bar, that's having a bar of their own, no one else should be compared to that or expected to have nearly as good numbers.

I don't know why so many people discredit Neymar so much on this forum. And again I'm not comparing him to Eden or anyone else. The kid - and he's also only 22 - is a prodigy. You can't seriously blame him for a less than spectacular season at a fading Barcelona when everything in that team was a mess. I do think Messi will get in the way of his growth there - Neymar is the kind of guy that is supposed to be the team's star and he said so many times when joining Barça that he was there to help Messi continue to being the best in the world, but that's not a role he can fulfill at his full potential. He's better than that and he didn't realize how much he took away from his game - consciously or unconsciously - to keep propping Messi. And then there were also the many problems Barça had and Neymar going through transition and why not - thinking about the world cup. So we can accuse Oscar of doing it - consciously or not we'll never know - but Neymar didn't? Neymar has much more responsibility and pressure on his shoulders than Oscar has to lead Brazil to win a WC in their own soil. The boy is 22 and he 'only' has this in his shoulders: make a less than talented Brazilian generation win a title at home in the most desired tournament in the world. It's almost unfair to him.

What I feel is that a lot of people want him to fail and do badly. Some because he's Brazilian - and yeah, maybe not here (or maybe even here) some people hate that Brazil continue to produce little geniuses - some because they want our own little genius to be better than him, some because they hate Barcelona and some maybe even gratuitously, but I'll tell you what, you're in for a big deception. The kid has the same will to win I mentioned about Bale and he may not work as hard (although he works very hard too), but he's absolutely thirsty to win and he has one of the best mentalities among all those names we've mentioned. Of course, I hate his diving ways and it will only get worse while he plays for Barcelona, but many of you are undermining and underrating a player that will make you eat yourown words. Maybe he won't be as big as he could be somewhere else because of Messi, but I have no doubts he'll be immense for them; Messi or no Messi.

And for me it doesn't really matter if he's better than Hazard or Hazard is better than him or Bale is better or worse than either of them. As a Brazilian, of course I want Neymar to reach his full potential, as a Chelsea fan I also feel the same for Eden and I want Bale to succeed for as long as he is at Real Madrid - but even if I wasn't any of those, I would want those young players to reach the heights of their games. Although Messi won many more Balon D'Ors than Cris did, it didn't take away how absolutely wonderful Cris is. The same will happen between those three young players. It doesn't matter who will win more Balon d'Ors - we may be lucky to have yet another chance to watch two very gifted players (I'm excluding Bale from the talent bracket - but talent isn't the only factor, so I won't diminish him completely) in the same generation at Hazard and Neymar and for the good of football - which I'm a big fan of - I hope they live up their potential and we have guys like them filling up - partially - the void that Messi and Cris will leave when the descending years of their careers are here. I feel blessed and privileged to have watched Zidane, then Cris and Messi and hopefully Eden and Neymar. Not everything has to be a competition - it's quite the privilege to watch Nadal and Federer, Messi and Cris, LeBron and Bryant in the same generations, I actually wish there were more of them spread in the teams, rather than less.

Very good post. I only want to comment 3 things:

1- Bale price tag was immense, and most people thought he wasn't worth that price. He went to Real trying to prove his value. He knew who the big star is. But he tried the whole season to justify his purchase. He scored decisive goals for Madrid, Copa Del Rey and the biggest of all: UCL. Hazard already arrived at Chelsea as a big star. Before he played one single match for us, he already was a star. I never saw Hazard as a player trying to prove his value. One year ago he was talking about score 60 goals in a season, like Messi and Ronaldo. It seems he believes he is bigger than he really is. Just think about his comments after UCL exit: "Often I'm required to do it all by myself and it's not easy".

2- About the hate for Brazil, I think this forum is a different case, since I joined this forum 4 years ago, it was clear some people really don't like Brazil. We have some hyper critical members here when the subject is our own brazilian players. Just think about Luiz, Oscar or William topic. They are the same people in Brazilian NT team topic saying bad things about our team.

3- 4 years ago some people were sure Ganso would be Brazil #10 in 2014 WC. To imagine Ganso playing for Brazil today is a laughable idea. I'm not comparing Ganso and Hazard, but in 2018 Hazard can be a football superstar, Ballon D'or Winner, or can be the same player he is today. I'm still waiting for a great performance in UCL decisive match, before I can't even mention his name alongside Messi and Ronaldo.

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The only part I disagree with is the last. I think Hazard is on par with most of those names. I'd say it is mostly form the deciding factor between them currently, other than that I agree. Most of all, I loved the organization with all those (1) (2) (a), if I did write all that it would be messy as heck.

Thank you :yes: I need to spell-check sometimes though :)

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It's been brough up quite a few times already by many including me but have you ever seen a player like Hazard who not only in club but also in NT has next to zero support from the FB ? I'll repeat it once again but if people seriously expect someone to get past defenders again and again when that defender KNOWS he only had this option or back pass the ball then something is wrong with your way of thinking.

When Hazard will have the same support and creativity around him than Ronaldo/Bale or Messi has, then you'll be able to compare them.

On another note, once again he has proven how deadly he's on counterattack, could already have gotten 3 assist in this WC just from counter.... How many more goal scoring chance does he need to create from counterattack to consider leaving him more often higher on the pitch when not in possession ? He's presence near the midfield for a posible counterattack will always bring more to a team than his presence in defense ( minus a few exceptions ).

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3- 4 years ago some people were sure Ganso would be Brazil #10 in 2014 WC. To imagine Ganso playing for Brazil today is a laughable idea. I'm not comparing Ganso and Hazard, but in 2018 Hazard can be a football superstar, Ballon D'or Winner, or can be the same player he is today. I'm still waiting for a great performance in UCL decisive match, before I can't even mention his name alongside Messi and Ronaldo.

Yes, I still remember the insane hype around Ganso. It seems ridiculous now, but back then, so many people and pundits were sure he'd be the next big thing. It shows that football is very fickle and unpredictable. Hazard has the talent and potential to be a true superstar, but he isn't yet and might never become one unless he seriously improves his consistency. Comparing him to the likes of Messi and Ronaldo is premature. Talent isn't everything. There have been many talented players who never quite realized their potential.

But it's worth remembering that the likes of Messi and Ronaldo have other amazing creative players around them. It helps. It makes everything easier. Having Fabregas in the team will take some pressure off Eden on the creative front and should only improve his stats, considering Cesc's talent for providing the final ball.

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This is a classic example of being overly critical of our own and overrating or overhyping other players. This is normal. If Hazard was a Man Utd player, the wankfest on here would have been crazy. And that's not a criticism, Barbara. I expect a surgeon to know more about the human anatomy than a geologist for example.

(1) You mention the Belgium matches, okay, let's talk about the Belgium gane and Hazard "fading". Let's take the Russia game for example. It's very common for us casual fans to overstate the importance of a player's individual efforts and understate the team effort. Will James look as good as he does if Colombia was playing poorly, no. Belgium have not been playing well. They have been playing, slow, ponderous, predictable football and have had the unfortunate ignominy of playing two defensive minded teams (at least in the games that Hazard started). This is obviously going to have a negative effect on individual performances, particularly of the forwards. Even more so for Hazard as he got double-marked on that left wing in both games vs Russia and Algeria. He is the only player on the Belgian team that gets this treatment. This is a big problem for him because as been discussed a 1000 times, Vetorghnen (sp?)/ Vermalean are CB's and simply do not support the winger in attack, so Hazard is left in a situation were he has to beat two players OR receives the ball with his back to goal and is closed down quickly. Back to ^^^^^^^ in a moment.

(a) It was only in when Algeria came out to play a little and lost the ball in transition that Hazard had an opportunity to launch a counter and the result was a goal for Mertens.

The Russia game was similar. The first half, stranded on the left side, facing the problems I discussed in (1). It was late in the 2nd half, when Wilmots became less defensive minded and focused on "shape" did he give Hazard a free role and he wrecked havoc on Russia's backline in a 10 minute cameo. He started drifting in to the centre where he was able to influence the game more.

What happens next, Belgium win the ball in transition, Origi lays it to Hazard and he blows by a Russian defender, cutting it back on his "weaker" foot for Origi. Goal for Origi.

So, two key actions when his team are not playing well, when the football is slow and predictable, in searing heat (both those games played at midday), when his coach is tactically inept, he still provides to match-winning moments. Very similar to Messi vs Iran and Bosnia. I dunno about you guys, but that is the mark of a world class player.

(2) It's up to Wilmots to solve the problems in (1), that even we arm-chair experts and analysts can see. Give Hazard a free role. You play with 5 centre-halves for fuck's sake. If not, start him as a 10 where he has more breathing space. Also, stop playing Dembele all the time cos he's been shit for a year or so and start Origi ahead of Lukaku because the USA are coming to defend deep, frustrate and park the bus. It's a shame Vanden Borre got injured because he looks like the only decent fullback in the Belgian team (why didn't he start in 1st two games?)

(3) You said Hazard is "lazy", no he's not. Check the facts. He covers an insane amount of kilometres per game for a winger. People also accused Messi of being lazy, calling him Walkessi and all that silliness. None of them highlighted how Barca's system was not as fluid as before. Iniesta, Xavi and Busquets triumvirate was not as good as before. Pressing game was not as good as before. Pep, the guy responsible for a fair share of the success of that GREAT Barcelona was no longer there. Then comes the "Messi is just walking". . "He's not calling for the ball" etc, without mentioning all the other subtleties. It's the same with Hazard. People, like you (no offense) criticize him for things that are beyond his control instead of looking at the broader picture.

Then the Bale thing is wrong. This is what annoys me. Bale has been known to disappear from games at his time with Tottenham and Madrid. Watch him, he does those exact same things you say Hazard does. Bale does not demand the ball. He is quiet on the pitch. What you did there is what I call overrating the opposition player and underrating our own. I even read someone here put Bale in the same sentence as Messi and Ronaldo. Many players disappear from games for various reasons, Messi included.

You can't deny that Hazard has not suffered from this problem this past season because he's under the best tactician in the world, Mourinho. Almost everything good about our attacking play came through Hazard. Maybe when we have a better team than the average one we saw last season, we can see Hazard in a more fluid system.

It's amazing how many conclusions you come to from a bunch of games. Surely, most of what you said doesn't hold true for the Hazard that we all saw dazzle for Chelsea this past season, so I'm assuming it's mostly based on the World Cup.

All the names thrown around. Reus, Bale, Neymar, Robben, Sanchez Ribery. I won't take any of these players ahead of Hazard. I don't consider any of these players to be better than Hazard, neither do I consider them to have his talent. The thing this guy is able to do with a football is beyond scary. The only winger I put above him is Ronaldo and that guy is not even a winger anymore. The only player I'll swap him for is Messi. And I say this as a football fan, not a Chelsea one.

haven't seen this until now.

I praised Eden and compared him to Messi's efficiency in this WC by deciding matches in a few minutes, so your first whole point hasn't been ignored by me. Most of my ideas regarding Hazard come from me watching him at Chelsea, not Belgium, although Belgium is the NT I've watched more matches from the last couple of years. So you telling me the obvious about how he solved the matches for Belgium is nothing new and nothing I haven't said myself in the post you quoted and in the match threads and Belgium NT during the WC.

If we're are going to wait until teams don't have 2 players marking Hazard for him to solve matches for us, we better wait the end of the season, when most teams are tired and player won't have much gas to double on him 90 minutes. How many players do you think mark the Robben, Ribery, Bale, Suarez (and I'm making a point to keep Messi and Ronaldo out of the conversation, as they're a league of their own and I can't compare Eden to them). I'm quite aware Eden is developing, is growing, but I don't suck him up, ignoring all his limitations, pretending he's the best thing since sliced bread. I call the areas I see he needs improvement and putting more effort is one of them. I said with all words I didn't call him lazy, so I didn't even bother to read a word further in that section of your post. If you can't say the difference between passive and lazy, find a dictionary.

The difference between Bale and Hazard now - other than one being older and therefore being further in his development curve is that while both disappear in many matches as you said, Bale was decisive in many important matches for Madrid - especially the ones Ronaldo himself disappeared. That's not my opinion, those are facts (about Bale) and Henrique mentioned some of those matches in his post. Now where was Hazard in the UCL SF? Allow me to be harsh, but he was allowing his man to get passed him as if he didn't care. Where was him against those small sides we couldn't break? Lacking as much interest and looking as uninspired as many of the other players (nearly all players, all in the attack, definitely). I have no problem calling those young players flaws, the areas they need to improve because they're suppose to mature. But I won't close my eyes and pretend they're astonishing just because they play for us.

Thanks for stating the obvious - about the Belgium matches - something I did myself in another post. I don't expect you to retract from your assumption that I called him lazy when I said I didn't and better luck next time to talk about Bale. But hey, at least it's popular ;)

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And is it just me or are Chelsea fans in particular overly critical of their players? We've become like Barcelona fans.

I think you're placing far too much stock in the internet fans and the bs spouted on Twitter. Even on here most people are fair-minded about our players so I don't know where you get off comparing Chelsea supporters to Barcelona supporters.

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02

haven't seen this until now.

02

I praised Eden and compared him to Messi's efficiency in this WC by deciding matches in a few minutes, so your first whole point hasn't been ignored by me. Most of my ideas regarding Hazard come from me watching him at Chelsea, not Belgium, although Belgium is the NT I've watched more matches from the last couple of years. So you telling me the obvious about how he solved the matches for Belgium is nothing new and nothing I haven't said myself in the post you quoted and in the match threads and Belgium NT during the WC.

If we're are going to wait until teams don't have 2 players marking Hazard for him to solve matches for us, we better wait the end of the season, when most teams are tired and player won't have much gas to double on him 90 minutes. How many players do you think mark the Robben, Ribery, Bale, Suarez (and I'm making a point to keep Messi and Ronaldo out of the conversation, as they're a league of their own and I can't compare Eden to them). I'm quite aware Eden is developing, is growing, but I don't suck him up, ignoring all his limitations, pretending he's the best thing since sliced bread. I call the areas I see he needs improvement and putting more effort is one of them. I said with all words I didn't call him lazy, so I didn't even bother to read a word further in that section of your post. If you can't say the difference between passive and lazy, find a dictionary.

02

The difference between Bale and Hazard now - other than one being older and therefore being further in his development curve is that while both disappear in many matches as you said, Bale was decisive in many important matches for Madrid - especially the ones Ronaldo himself disappeared. That's not my opinion, those are facts (about Bale) and Henrique mentioned some of those matches in his post. Now where was Hazard in the UCL SF? Allow me to be harsh, but he was allowing his man to get passed him as if he didn't care. Where was him against those small sides we couldn't break? Lacking as much interest and looking as uninspired as many of the other players (nearly all players, all in the attack, definitely). I have no problem calling those young players flaws, the areas they need to improve because they're suppose to mature. But I won't close my eyes and pretend they're astonishing just because they play for us.

02

Thanks for stating the obvious - about the Belgium matches - something I did myself in another post. I don't expect you to retract from your assumption that I called him lazy when I said I didn't and better luck next time to talk about Bale. But hey, at least it's popular ;)

I think he's misunderstanding what u said.

We all love hazard, but we are allowed to express our opinions on his positives and weaknesses.

Like mourinho said, the people with more talent to reach higher levels will get more criticism because we know they can do more than other players. If we criticize him it doesn't mean we hate him, it means we care for his development and hopes he reaches higher heights as fast as possible.

Hazard isn't lazy, he is just different from our typical wingers. He isn't direct like schurrle, u'll never see hazard make runs in goal scoring positions like schurrle did for Germany yesterday. One of the most important attributes of a winger is the ability to run into space, and this is not a strong point for hazard. He is a creator more than the scorer, he'll rather come to collect the ball instead of run. He should be having the most touches of the ball in the team with that attribute of his. That's what will suit him IMO, its bad for a player with his extraordinary talent to have 10-15mins spells without touching the ball because of being triple marked and secluded away from teammate's support in the wings(this won't happen in the centre).

He is one of the best in the world at keeping the ball in tight spaces, and making turns, very similar to iniesta in play style in terms of strengths and weaknesses baring speed. All these attributes point to a fantastic AM to me. But that's just my opinion.

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poor 1st half from him. and another time poor attitude from him. is barely running aroudn, just jogging and seems without any motivation whatsoever. dont know what is going on with him in this WC...

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poor 1st half from him. and another time poor attitude from him. is barely running aroudn, just jogging and seems without any motivation whatsoever. dont know what is going on with him in this WC...

Maybe just being clever, it's very important to keep control of the stamina in this World Cup.

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