Politics & Stuff

[Rmpr 8,977]

This is no war, it's a massacre!

[Peace. 4,352]

We are telling them to leave. Hamas telling them to stay and be a human shield.

They took their choice.

This leaves me voiceless.

Your country dehumanize you (you, just like your country fellow man over here) through propaganda ; tomorrow they'll hand you some M16 and you'll be the ones remorselessly killing innocent children. You are the tomorrow's Himmler, Ratko Mladic and Ariel Sharon. Jesus Christ...

[CHOULO19 24,332]

The definition of twisting the facts: The Israeli army kills 100 people, and CNN's news headline reads: "100 people dead in Israel today."

:doh:

[dave30 728]

How anyone jewish can have a right wing ideology, with right wing groups throughout the world wanting to see the destruction of the jewish race is beyond me.

Many commentators, and indeed a few in the knesset have called israel a fascist racist state, because the government calls it a jewish state. But to embrace an ideology that nearly extinguished judaism in the 1940s is like the abused going on to be the abuser.

'Right wing's' such an outdated term, what does someone who is right wing believe? you seem to equate the term to Nazism?

[Peace. 4,352]

What I have just read on Amnesty International website :

Israeli air strikes and shelling have also caused devastating damage to water and sanitation infrastructure across the Gaza Strip. Three workers have been killed trying to make critical repairs and continuing hostilities have made such work too dangerous in many areas. On 16 July, the UN reported that at least half of Gaza’s population – some 900,000 people – were not receiving water. Damage to sewage and pumping facilities and the resulting potential for contamination of water supplies has created a public health emergency.

“Gaza’s infrastructure is on the verge of collapse and the consequences of a continuing lack of clean water could be catastrophic,” said Philip Luther.

Since the conflict began, at least 84 schools in Gaza have been damaged and at least 13 health facilities have been forced to close. When the al-Wafa rehabilitative hospital in Shuja’iyyeh came under fire for a second time on 17 July, staff were forced to evacuate all the patients, reportedly under fire, and then the hospital was destroyed.

“Instead of targeting medical facilities in violation of international law, Israeli forces must protect medics and patients, and ensure that people wounded can safely reach medical facilities in Gaza and, when necessary, outside the Strip,” said Philip Luther.

On an other hand, Noam Chomsky schools us that in an article he has recently written :

It is important to understand what life is like in Gaza when Israel’s behavior is “restrained,” in between the regular manufactured crises like this one. A good sense is given in a report to UNRWA by Mads Gilbert, the courageous and expert Norwegian physician who has worked extensively in Gaza, also throughout the vicious and murderous Cast Lead operation. In every respect, the situation is disastrous. Just keeping to children, Gilbert reports: “Palestinian children in Gaza are suffering immensely. A large proportion are affected by the man-made malnourishment regime caused by the Israeli imposed blockage. Prevalence of anaemia in children <2yrs in Gaza is at 72.8%, while prevalence of wasting, stunting, underweight have been documented at 34.3%, 31.4%, 31.45% respectively.” And it gets worse as the report proceeds.

When Israel is on “good behavior,” more than two Palestinian children are killed every week, a pattern that goes back over 14 years. The underlying cause is the criminal occupation and the programs to reduce Palestinian life to bare survival in Gaza, while Palestinians are restricted to unviable cantons in the West Bank and Israel takes over what it wants, all in gross violation of international law and explicit Security Council resolutions, not to speak of minimal decency. And it will continue as long as it is supported by Washington and tolerated by Europe – to our everlasting shame.

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article39071.htm

The sad truth is that it is all calculated. To use Chomsky's words, when Israel is on "good behaviour", they instil a great terror into Palestinians. They barely let them live in human condition. Moreover, to add to that terror, Israeli imprison them behind high wall with sniper-towers. Because of that, a part of Gaza population, out of hatred caused by desperation, radicalize themselves and enter organization such as Hamas. And, unfortunately, those people fall into Israeli traps : they eventually start to shoot rockets onto their gaolers' land .... That is it, Israel government can legitimate an awful massacre.

When Israel will stop its attack massacre, hundreds civilians will be killed, thousands houses destroyed and civilians will be left into worse than Bronze Age living conditions. Yet, the Hamas will have survived — worse, it will get only stronger and get more support from the people, because Gaza people will be more and more desperate from living the Hell on Earth. As a matter of fact, Hamas will once again shot rockets on Israeli cities ; the Israelite government will once again have the opportunity to justify a new massacre of the Gaza population. And this will continue untill Israel have managed to kill the last Gazan and indexed Gaza strip to the state of Israel....

On the topic of the war on terrorism by USA, Noam Chomsky used the definition of terrorism given by the US army manual : "the calculated use of violence or threat of violence to attain goals that are political, religious, or ideological in nature. This is done through intimidation, coercion, or instilling fear". He also said "Wanton killing of innocent civilians is terrorism, not a war against terrorism." .... By no mean one can justify what Hamas is doing ; but the real terrorists are not Hamas but the Israeli government — Israel is a Terror Sate.

We are witnessing a cynically calculated genocide, and we have only our eyes to cry since no government do something to stop that...

[Mohammed Seif 1,451]

What I have just read on Amnesty International website :

On an other hand, Noam Chomsky schools us that in an article he has recently written :

The sad truth is that it is all calculated. To use Chomsky's words, when Israel is on "good behaviour", they instil a great terror into Palestinians. They barely let them live in human condition. Moreover, to add to that terror, Israeli imprison them behind high wall with sniper-towers. Because of that, a part of Gaza population, out of hatred caused by desperation, radicalize themselves and enter organization such as Hamas. And, unfortunately, those people fall into Israeli traps : they eventually start to shoot rockets onto their gaolers' land .... That is it, Israel government can legitimate an awful massacre.

When Israel will stop its attack massacre, hundreds civilians will be killed, thousands houses destroyed and civilians will be left into worse than Bronze Age living conditions. Yet, the Hamas will have survived — worse, it will get only stronger and get more support from the people, because Gaza people will be more and more desperate from living the Hell on Earth. As a matter of fact, Hamas will once again shot rockets on Israeli cities ; the Israelite government will once again have the opportunity to justify a new massacre of the Gaza population. And this will continue untill Israel have managed to kill the last Gazan and indexed Gaza strip to the state of Israel....

On the topic of the war on terrorism by USA, Noam Chomsky used the definition of terrorism given by the US army manual : "the calculated use of violence or threat of violence to attain goals that are political, religious, or ideological in nature. This is done through intimidation, coercion, or instilling fear". He also said "Wanton killing of innocent civilians is terrorism, not a war against terrorism." .... By no mean one can justify what Hamas is doing ; but the real terrorists are not Hamas but the Israeli government — Israel is a Terror Sate.

We are witnessing a cynically calculated genocide, and we have only our eyes to cry since no government do something to stop that...

Here is a sad part, Obama doesn't s see that the damage done is to Gaza infrastructure. He sees it as damage to Hamas infrastructure. Gives you an indication of what that means as far as differentiating between Hamas and Palestinians. And he also talks as if the civilian lives lost on both sides are the same as far as numbers, as if he doesn't know that only 1 civilian (who according to Isrealis was giving IDF soldiers food) died, while 70% of 500+ civilians have been killed in Gaza. Yeah all civilian lives are the same imo, but they way it is said by Obama, indicates that both are really suffering. That is SAD.

[CHOULO19 24,332]

So, Israel finally admits that they have a soldier "missing" after insisting for two days that it was "another Hamas lie":

http://www.jpost.com/Operation-Protective-Edge/IDF-soldier-missing-in-Gaza-reportedly-presumed-dead-368420

Oh IDF, if you're this lost and failing miserably against Hamas, whatever will you do if you have to face Hezboullah in the future?!

[Fulham Broadway 17,333]

'Right wing's' such an outdated term, what does someone who is right wing believe? you seem to equate the term to Nazism?

Right wing is anything from one nation toryism to Greeces Golden dawn, nazis, and any shade in between. Many political thinkers consider Israel a racist, fascist state because it calls itself a jewish state.

[We Hate Scouse 10,327]

Really interested in the discussion going on its really informative and insightful to see both sides views.

We always hear about Israel getting attacked by Hamas and there was a ridiculous figure I read of the amount of rockets fired in the thousands in a short period, but how many of these actually make it past Israels iron dome? Is there any figures?

[xPetrCechx 13,573]

Really interested in the discussion going on its really informative and insightful to see both sides views.

We always hear about Israel getting attacked by Hamas and there was a ridiculous figure I read of the amount of rockets fired in the thousands in a short period, but how many of these actually make it past Israels iron dome? Is there any figures?

Emmm...

Like 70~196 Rockets Every Day (24 Hours).

Iron Dome only attacks the rockets that fly into Populated places ( like 25~70 ).

How many of these actually make it past iron dome? I think that like 3-7. (24 hours).

but the biggest problem is:

terrorists attempting to infiltrate Israel through tunnels...

[Fulham Broadway 17,333]

Here is a sad part, Obama doesn't s see that the damage done is to Gaza infrastructure. He sees it as damage to Hamas infrastructure. Gives you an indication of what that means as far as differentiating between Hamas and Palestinians. And he also talks as if the civilian lives lost on both sides are the same as far as numbers, as if he doesn't know that only 1 civilian (who according to Isrealis was giving IDF soldiers food) died, while 70% of 500+ civilians have been killed in Gaza. Yeah all civilian lives are the same imo, but they way it is said by Obama, indicates that both are really suffering. That is SAD.

We know why that is though saif, every US govt whether republican on democrat is beholden to Aipac and the zionist lobby groups in the United States. The amount of US tax payers dollars given in "aid" to Israel does not waiver, regardless of which denomination is in the power. Many Israelis boast of running the white house.

[Mohammed Seif 1,451]

Really interested in the discussion going on its really informative and insightful to see both sides views.

We always hear about Israel getting attacked by Hamas and there was a ridiculous figure I read of the amount of rockets fired in the thousands in a short period, but how many of these actually make it past Israels iron dome? Is there any figures?

Hamas uses crap for rockets. As far as accuracy, damage and damage radius are concerned, these rockets are not the type that you can use in a proper army. The iron dome is an anti rocket rocket defense system that " officially" can intercept rockets from a distance of 70km according to wikipedia. It also says that the range can be maximized to intercept rockets from a distance of 250km. As far as true stats are concerned, I doubt you would find true or accurate stats. On a personal opinion, I doubt the number "thousands" or anything close ti that figure is true. Simply because Hamas is a militia not an army, and fatalities on the Israeli side would have definitely been more than 1 civilian.

Having said that, Hamas are true terrorists. They know their rockets are not going to do much damage. They know that the Israelis will definitely retaliate with overwhelming power and stupidity. They are well aware that there will be many civilian casualties. They assume the more civilian casualties, the more support they will get from the international community. They are playing a sick game, and Israel is helping them by retaliating with such irrational power. They are desperate to redeem themselves. Israel is just helping them do that, unintentionally. The increase in IDF casualties portray them as heros, not to mention the capture of a soldier during combat which is a first for Hamas. It is a fucked up situation from both sides and the only victims are the civilians.

[xPetrCechx 13,573]

Hamas uses crap for rockets. As far as accuracy, damage and damage radius are concerned, these rockets are not the type that you can use in a proper army. The iron dome is an anti rocket rocket defense system that " officially" can intercept rockets from a distance of 70km according to wikipedia. It also says that the range can be maximized to intercept rockets from a distance of 250km. As far as true stats are concerned, I doubt you would find true or accurate stats. On a personal opinion, I doubt the number "thousands" or anything close ti that figure is true. Simply because Hamas is a militia not an army, and fatalities on the Israeli side would have definitely been more than 1 civilian.

Having said that, Hamas are true terrorists. They know their rockets are not going to do much damage. They know that the Israelis will definitely retaliate with overwhelming power and stupidity. They are well aware that there will be many civilian casualties. They assume the more civilian casualties, the more support they will get from the international community. They are playing a sick game, and Israel is helping them by retaliating with such irrational power. They are desperate to redeem themselves. Israel is just helping them do that, unintentionally. The increase in IDF casualties portray them as heros, not to mention the capture of a soldier during combat which is a first for Hamas. It is a fucked up situation from both sides and the only victims are the civilians.

[Mohammed Seif 1,451]

What about the rest Petr?

Can't you see you are helping them?

[xPetrCechx 13,573]

What about the rest Petr?

Can't you see you are helping them?

I can see, yes. but to seriously damage hamas, we need to attack...

[Mohammed Seif 1,451]

I can see, yes. but to seriously damage hamas, we need to attack...

I agree you need to damage Hamas, but how is this damaging Hamas?

Do you think the Palestinians, whom you know are being oppressed every day, would be angry at Hamas after seeing their loved ones killed without having nothing to do with this?

Don't you think, that due to the civilian deaths which are A LOT, people will not sympathize with Hamas?

Don't you think, that when Israel tried this in 2008 and 2012, Hamas just got stronger?

When will Israel know that this approach doesn't help its cause, but as a matter of fact damages it more?

These are questions you need to think about carefully. You need to put aside your sense of patriotism and think more rationally. You will find that the answers to those questions are not in your favor. If you want to get rid of Hamas, then certainly you need a different approach.

[Peppen 934]

I can see, yes. but to seriously damage hamas, we need to attack...

Why not launch small-scale operations to take out the cells one by one? You spend so much money on your intelligence services, you should be able to gather decent intel on their location, and act accordingly. Not bomb every street, just to be sure.

[Peppen 934]

I agree you need to damage Hamas, but how is this damaging Hamas?

Do you think the Palestinians, whom you know are being oppressed every day, would be angry at Hamas after seeing their loved ones killed without having nothing to do with this?

Don't you think, that due to the civilian deaths which are A LOT, people will not sympathize with Hamas?

Don't you think, that when Israel tried this in 2008 and 2012, Hamas just got stronger?

When will Israel know that this approach doesn't help its cause, but as a matter of fact damages it more?

These are questions you need to think about carefully. You need to put aside your sense of patriotism and think more rationally. You will find that the answers to those questions are not in your favor. If you want to get rid of Hamas, then certainly you need a different approach.

This.... This is the truth. You are not hurting Hamas, you are fueling the extremism by killing innocent people, and breeding the anti-Israel hate.

[Mohammed Seif 1,451]

Why not launch small-scale operations to take out the cells one by one? You spend so much money on your intelligence services, you should be able to gather decent intel on their location, and act accordingly. Not bomb every street, just to be sure.

Not to mention that they have demonstrated that they can do that before. They have taken out several Hamas leaders with tactical operations. They have the state of the art technology and, as you said, one the strongest intelligence in the world. It is all about elections mate. They don't really care. Just feed their people on fear. That is why in the past days you have been getting some really weird responses when you tried to have a rational discussion. Btw, I felt your frustration and you had every right.

This.... This is the truth. You are not hurting Hamas, you are fueling the extremism by killing innocent people, and breeding the anti-Israel hate.

Well said. They are two faces of the same coin. Can't live or execute their political agenda with or without each other.

[xPetrCechx 13,573]

I agree you need to damage Hamas, but how is this damaging Hamas?

Do you think the Palestinians, whom you know are being oppressed every day, would be angry at Hamas after seeing their loved ones killed without having nothing to do with this?

Don't you think, that due to the civilian deaths which are A LOT, people will not sympathize with Hamas?

Don't you think, that when Israel tried this in 2008 and 2012, Hamas just got stronger?

When will Israel know that this approach doesn't help its cause, but as a matter of fact damages it more?

These are questions you need to think about carefully. You need to put aside your sense of patriotism and think more rationally. You will find that the answers to those questions are not in your favor. If you want to get rid of Hamas, then certainly you need a different approach.

Why not launch small-scale operations to take out the cells one by one? You spend so much money on your intelligence services, you should be able to gather decent intel on their location, and act accordingly. Not bomb every street, just to be sure.

It's Not so easy to take them " one by one ".

You need to destroy Not only Hamas people, you need to destroy Rockets, bases etc...

And when those rockets are so close to innocent people... it's a big shame that innocent people died, but really, the blame is on hamas too ( hiding them so close to people and fire them from houses and near to children etc...).

( and i'm not saying that we are clean of mistakes ).