Politics & Stuff

[MrExcalibur100 7,124]

You have some serious issues. To say something like that, and then say that my views are delusional is just crazy. Murder is a MURDER. If you have any moral, you'd know that.

Now I can put for example ''video - how the jews treat christians in israel''

and I could say: All the Jews are like that. That's what you are doing.

And, of course, I know that those on the video are only small percentage and extremes.

If you dont understand the difference between extreme muslims and those who want to live in peace, then I must say that you're an idiot.

I'm not sure why you're typing in bold, the video I put up was only to show how Hamas officials use the Qur'an and Hadith to justify their genocidal beliefs encoded in their charter.

And isn't it ironic how the "extreme Muslims" were democratically voted in by the Palestinians who "just want to leave in peace"? How does that work?

Also, you're yet to prove the "genocide". Only a person with serious issues will believe such nonsense. A "genocide" but the population keeps on increasing and increasing. Time to wake up from La La land and come back to the real world, dude.

[MrExcalibur100 7,124]

I don't understand Karen Armstrong, she is a great writer and her books would be brilliant if she could be at least honest with both sides of the story.

Someone needs to find the middle ground between people like Robert Spencer and Karen Armstrong in these discussions/books.

She's definitely paid to write what she writes. You don't even have to read some book written by some Westerner 1000's of years after the event on Islam or Muhammad. All that needs to be done is read the Qur'anic verses and the Tafsir of these verses in context. Then read the Hadith and the biography of Muhammad and finally the Reliance of the Traveler. Any sane, partial person who has done these things will surely side with a Robert Spencer over a Karen Armstrong.

[dUMB 189]

I'm not sure why you're typing in bold, the video I put up was only to show how Hamas officials use the Qur'an and Hadith to justify their genocidal beliefs encoded in their charter.

And isn't it ironic how the "extreme Muslims" were democratically voted in by the Palestinians who "just want to leave in peace"? How does that work?

Also, you're yet to prove the "genocide". Only a person with serious issues will believe such nonsense. A "genocide" but the population keeps on increasing and increasing. Time to wake up from La La land and come back to the real world, dude.

I'm done talking with you. Find some professional help because you've been brainwashed with some serious American propaganda.

[MrExcalibur100 7,124]

In certain parts of the world, you can lose your life for saying that. I wonder why.

Like you said, it's the teachings, the fruits and the fruits are rotten and in desperate need of reform, be it in Gaza, Chechnya or Iraq. Be it ISIL, Boko Haram or Al Shabaab. They all read from the same book and are all fighting, waging Jihad, in the name of the same deity and prophet.

Trying to play a blame game and restrict this to "land" helps nobody. ISIS are literally cutting the heads off of other human beings, something Muhammad did as well to the Qurayza Jews. They aren't doing this because of "land" or "occupation", or are they trying to implement Sharia or the Caliphate because of the West or Israel, It's because of Islam.

And as for "Phobia", anyone will be phobic to a religion that is threatening and taking the lives of countless millions of people (of different creeds and nationalities) around the world today.

Edited November 19, 2014 by CHOULO19

[dUMB 189]

Have you read the articles you have posted?

1) True too many Palestinians have died, one is too many. He also says too many Israeli's have died. No mention of a genocide. He speaks of a conflict.

2) An Al-Jazeera editiorial and electronic-intifada site? Shall I post some from the Jerusalem times? No mention of the continued indiscriminate rocket firing at Israeli and when they miss their own position. Both are in the wrong in their actions but there is no evidence of a state sponsored genocide like you claimed.

3) Much better an impartial article. 5,315 deaths on both sides since 2000 . A state sponsored genocide? Where?

What you need to do is show proof that Israel is on purpose killing Palestinians in an effort to wipe them out. That is a genocide, that is what some Turks attempted to do to the Armenians or what happened in the Holocaust. What is happening in the Israel/Palestinian conflict is not the same.

Most of those killed in the conflict have been civilians not involved in the fighting. Deliberately targeting civilians is strictly prohibited in international law in all circumstances: a rule which applies to all combatants whether from government armed forces or members of militia groups. Persons protected under occupation law are considered as civilians except for that period of time that they may be actively engaged in hostilities or are carrying arms.

Amongst Israelis, 69% of those killed were civilians and 31% members of the IDF. The number of Israeli civilians killed, from attacks by Palestinian armed groups or individuals, has declined steadily, peaking in 2002 at an average of 22 deaths per month, and dropping markedly to an average of one civilian per month in 2007. 6/

In contrast to Israeli figures, however, Palestinian civilian fatalities have remained high. Palestinian civilians, killed by Israeli security forces, peaked with an average of 35 deaths per month in 2002, and again in 2004. In 2007 they dropped slightly to an average of ten civilian deaths per month.

It is considerably more difficult to distinguish precisely who amongst those Palestinians killed were civilians. Since September 2000, of Palestinians killed by Israeli security forces, whose status was known 7/, 59% were civilians and 41% were engaged in hostilities at the time of their death. - See more at: http://unispal.un.org/UNISPAL.NSF/0/BE07C80CDA4579468525734800500272#sthash.0wI0DUxo.dpuf

You need to see things from both sides. Unprocessed hate crimes doesn't help in improving situation. I think that people (both Palestinians and Israelis) are tired of their leaders and their aggressive politics. Mr.Excalibur fails to see people as individuals with their own opinions and just puts all Muslims in the same box and that is racist. But that is his problem.

I live in a Christian country so I cant tell much about Muslims, but what I know is that not all Christians are the same. And I know that goes for Muslims too.

[CHOULO19 24,332]

Firstly I'd agree with you. Israeli's conduct with Lebanon has been greatly outside the the scope of modern diplomacy and being all the way in North Wales (was born in Scotland) we haven't got anything comparable. However remember there was a conflict between Hezbolah and Israel in 2006 after the withdrawal of Israeli forces due to continuing rocket attacks from southern Lebanon.

Incorrect. The 2006 war was on the surface because of the continued imprisoning of Lebanese people in Israeli prisons and Hizboullah kidnapping two Israeli soldiers to trade them with the prisoners. Looking deeper it was a US war started as the "labor for the birth of the new middle east" as Rice put it.

The struggle has everything do with the people on the ground on both sides. However for a solution to be found, Israel has to withdraw but can't as it doesn't have the assurances that attacks won't return from the territory from the controlling political party.

They can't get assurances that the rockets will stop because the rockets are a direct result of the Israeli occupation and the daily atrocities committed by it. Withdrawing is not enough. The only way to stop the rockets is to make the Palestinian people (not parties, not militias) not support the launching of rockets and that is achieved by giving them a proper free life.

Don't forget about Israeli's missile Iron dome system, how many lives has it saved? You talk of the lack of casualties in the recent conflict but think how many there would have been otherwise? There were 4,954 rockets and mortar fired into Israel in July. Think how many would have died if it wasn't for that system? Do you really believe 4,954 of them were the aimed rockets?

That is besides the point. The dome is there so it needs to be factored in when talking about the launching of rockets. On any account, the dome intercepts mostly the long range rockets, i.e. the undirected ones, plus the rockets fulfill their purpose when they are launched. Their aim is to trigger the alarms and scare people, not to kill as many civilians as possible.

I don't believe per say, that the conflict is an Islamic/Jewish conflict completely, the failure to able to resolve the conflict has strong foundations in there though. As has been written, Israel recognizes Palestine right to exist but it isn't reciprocated and for what reason? Is it political or is it religious?

Means absolute nothing when Israel can and have always stopped the existence of a Palestinian state while the Palestinians cannot (and probably never) stop the existence of the Israeli state. All bullshit political statements. Israel wants to appease the 'international community' and views of it while the Palestinian leaders want to make meaningless political slogans.

As for Shahid, you know where the philosophy of death comes from in Islam. Do you believe those that commit the suicide attacks are doing out an attempt to help their fellow countrymen in the present or for something even greater?

Bukari Volume 9, Book 90, Number 333:

Abu Huraira said, Allah's Apostle said, "By Him in Whose Hand my life is, I would love to fight in Allah's Cause and then get martyred and then resurrected (come to life) and then get martyred and then resurrected (come to life) and then get martyred, and then resurrected (come to life) and then get martyred and then resurrected (come to life)." Abu Huraira used to repeat those words three times and I testify to it with Allah's Oath.

That's hardly proof of anything. History is full of people and groups of all different faiths volunteering to die for what they believed is the greater good.

I can't agree with you there is no way that by sacrificing yourself in a suicide attack can ever be the solution to your loved ones problems. Who has appointed you judge over the people you kill? Yes, I might be idealistic over this and far away but the point remains, if do what they did in Jerusalem yesterday then what have you achieved but murder? You haven't defended the honor of the Palestinian or the Al-Asqa Mosque you have killed people that you have no right to do.

What you achieve is enough pressure from the Israeli citizens on their leaders to force them to put a halt on their daily terrorizing of Palestinians and their plans to occupy Al Aqsa and build new settlements. It the difference between "Meh, another Lebanese shepherd was shot dead" and "Why are we provoking them, we don't want to open the Lebanese front again."

Just to make sure, I fully support both states' right to exist and the complete equal rights of any citizen in both states.

I don't. The only hope for peace is a single state where everyone lives as equals regardless of religion or ethnicity. Now THAT is Utopian!

[DCS1984 28]

You need to see things from both sides. Unprocessed hate crimes doesn't help in improving situation. I think that people (both Palestinians and Israelis) are tired of their leaders and their aggressive politics. Mr.Excalibur fails to see people as individuals with their own opinions and just puts all Muslims in the same box and that is racist. But that is his problem.

I live in a Christian country so I cant tell much about Muslims, but what I know is that not all Christians are the same. And I know that goes for Muslims too.

dUMB you have continually argued from the Palestinian "side" have you tried to put an argument together for the Israeli side? The information you have posted so far has mainly came from Palestinian sources but perhaps you should take a look at their sources

Muslims aren't a race, they are individual people who follow a faith.

If Mr.Excalibur brings up a un-emotional (though it can be so hard with what's going on) point with the correct quotations and references to back them up hopefully they can be responded to by who-ever feels free to respond

[CHOULO19 24,332]

Right back at ya, CHOULO19. You said it yourself. You live in Lebanon, an incredibly racist Jew-hating country, like majority of the Muslim world. You've been brainwashed to the tilt without even knowing it and it shines right through your posts on this particular thread. That's why you accuse me of "propaganda", it's all you can do.

Dude, don't make me dig up the countless times you've magically disappeared after me, Stingray or FB genuinely address one of your posts and you cannot come up with an answer.

I haven't made a single posts insulting Jews or Judaism while all your posts are attacks on Islam using very reliable YouTube videos. I think it is very clear to anyone who is spouting propaganda in here.

What's that supposed to mean? Is this a moral justification for firing thousands of rockets into civilian areas to kill and maim?

Yes it is, actually. "Thousands of Palestinian rockets" that kill 2 Israeli civilians but force a stop to the attacks on Gaza are a more moral than a single Israeli shell on a school full of refugees that achieves nothing except the killing of tens of them.

Prove it.

Fuck off! Go read before you debate anything. I have relatives who were killed and detained by Israeli forces. My own home village had one of two torture centers in Lebanon. I don't know to prove anything to you. If you know nothing of the issue, don't debate it.

That's vile. You sir, have a dangerous mind and you don't even realize it.

Haha. Says the guy defending the killing of thousands of civilians in this past year alone and a supporter of the "human shields" crap! THAT is rich!

The struggle (Jihad?) has absolutely EVERYTHING to do with Islam. The justification for Suicide (Jihadi) bombing is Islam. Have you read the Hamas charter? They quote from the Qur'an and they also quote the genocidal exortations of Muhammad concerning the Jews "judgement day shall not come till Muslims kill Jews". We see Hamas officials quoting the Qur'an as justification for their actions. That is pure ISLAM and blatant racism, the land issue is secondary. A catch 22 to the hatred of Jews in Islam.

No, the Palestinian-Israeli struggle. Have you ever read the charter of the Lebanese communist part or the PLO who gave countless martyrs fighting Israel and were the first to do so, lots of them Christians?

Spout all the shit you want about why the resistance is fighting Israel, and I'll only respond with this link to anti-Zionist Rabbis with Hezboullah leaders in the south of Lebanon: http://dailystar.com.lb/News/Local-News/2012/Apr-02/168930-rabbis-in-surprise-visit-to-south-lebanon.ashx#axzz3JY5p86BG

"Read" and learn more? What justification can there ever be for that aside from Qur'an 9:111 and the promise of virgins in Paradis

Ask the Christians who died fighting against Israel.

Sure let's blame the West and the "Zionists" as always. They create everything fucked up about Islam. Always the blame game. Let's just ignore the fact that these people quote the Qur'an as justification for their actions. It's amazing how people from all different races, ethnicities and creeds all blow themselves up in the name of one Ideology, be it in Palestine, Iraq or Nigeria.

Yeah, the modern Jihadism that was first created by the UK and US in Afghanistan to fight against the Soviet Union. That is not a secret nor a conspiracy. Neither the US nor the UK have ever even tried to deny that because it was VERY publicized at the time. It was no secret operation, it was even voted on in the US congress. Learn your own history FFS!

I won't respond to attacks on my country from someone living in the country with the lowest percentage of believers that global warming is a scientific fact and the highest percentage believers that WWE is real Especially when it is as ignorant as calling Lebanon a "Muslim country" when we have 18 different sect and half of our population is Christian and when we've always had pro-Israel political parties and certainly anti-Palestinian, opinions that I am exposed to and debate everyday.

I KNOW that I won't have to debate you much longer in this thread as you will no doubt vanish after a few posts like you always do. My advice to you is read more and watch less YouTube and foxnews...

[CHOULO19 24,332]

@lucio, your post is not politically related and does not really add anything to the discussion here except the risk of someone getting very insulted. I respect your opinion but we can't have such a post that can be viewed as incredibly offensive by SO MANY people in here. I'm sorry, but I have removed it.

[MrExcalibur100 7,124]

@lucio, your post is not politically related and does not really add anything to the discussion here except the risk of someone getting very insulted. I respect your opinion but we can't have such a post that can be viewed as incredibly offensive by SO MANY people in here. I'm sorry, but I have removed it.

Of course you have to remove it. In other parts of the world, he'll have been killed. How pathetic.

[CHOULO19 24,332]

Of course you have to remove it. In other parts of the world, he'll have been killed. How pathetic.

Yes, religious people tend to be touchy about their beliefs and do crazy stuff like spout bullshit propaganda about other religions and kick millions of people out of their land and houses and kill tens of thousands of them because they think their god gave them that land. It's super weird...

[DCS1984 28]

Incorrect. The 2006 war was on the surface because of the continued imprisoning of Lebanese people in Israeli prisons and Hizboullah kidnapping two Israeli soldiers to trade them with the prisoners. Looking deeper it was a US war started as the "labor for the birth of the new middle east" as Rice put it.

True the conflict wasn't a conflict between the state of Israel and the state of Lebanon. The problem is it was a conflict between a state and a terrorist group acting with impunity in southern Lebanon. Remember there was never a state of war between Lebanon and Israel. The two captured soldiers was just the lightening of the fuse of the bomb ticking between the two groups. You are taking Condoleezza Rice's statement out of context what she is explaining is that the conflict will hopefully lead to an end to terrorist groups attacking sovereign nations pushing forward to a new middle east which of course hasn't happened.

That is besides the point. The dome is there so it needs to be factored in when talking about the launching of rockets. On any account, the dome intercepts mostly the long range rockets, i.e. the undirected ones, plus the rockets fulfill their purpose when they are launched. Their aim is to trigger the alarms and scare people, not to kill as many civilians as possible.

You believe that the aim of the people that fire the rockets is to trigger alarms and scare people? Really? If one gets through the Iron dome then what? People will die. You are still advocating the murder of innocent people by people firing rockets miles away.

Means absolute nothing when Israel can and have always stopped the existence of a Palestinian state while the Palestinians cannot (and probably never) stop the existence of the Israeli state. All bullshit political statements. Israel wants to appease the 'international community' and views of it while the Palestinian leaders want to make meaningless political slogans.

That is true, there is at present time no way for the Palestinian's to affect the Israeli state's existence but out of interest what do you think would happen if they could?

What you achieve is enough pressure from the Israeli citizens on their leaders to force them to put a halt on their daily terrorizing of Palestinians and their plans to occupy Al Aqsa and build new settlements. It the difference between "Meh, another Lebanese shepherd was shot dead" and "Why are we provoking them, we don't want to open the Lebanese front again."

No you achieve nothing but death, the death of people who the people with the guns and machete's had no right to take yesterday.

Out of you interest what is your position on the Al - Aqsa in Islam and why you believe the Jew's shouldn't be allowed to worship at the temple mount?

That's hardly proof of anything. History is full of people and groups of all different faiths volunteering to die for what they believed is the greater good.

Again I didn't say they were just dying for what they believed is the greater good, I was arguing that the higher rationale was the acceptance of Shahid (as shown by the hadith of Muhammad) as an form of warfare that is completely unacceptable in Judaism and Christianity.

I don't. The only hope for peace is a single state where everyone lives as equals regardless of religion or ethnicity. Now THAT is Utopian!

Wow, that's a higher goal than I can ever believe happen in my lifetime

Out of interest, may I ask what faith you are?

Perhaps we should rename this the Politics and religions of the middle east thread

[lucio 5,418]

@lucio, your post is not politically related and does not really add anything to the discussion here except the risk of someone getting very insulted. I respect your opinion but we can't have such a post that can be viewed as incredibly offensive by SO MANY people in here. I'm sorry, but I have removed it.

no problem. i dont want to upset anyone

[CHOULO19 24,332]

True the conflict wasn't a conflict between the state of Israel and the state of Lebanon. The problem is it was a conflict between a state and a terrorist group acting with impunity in southern Lebanon. Remember there was never a state of war between Lebanon and Israel. The two captured soldiers was just the lightening of the fuse of the bomb ticking between the two groups. You are taking Condoleezza Rice's statement out of context what she is explaining is that the conflict will hopefully lead to an end to terrorist groups attacking sovereign nations pushing forward to a new middle east which of course hasn't happened.

I don't even know what 'terrorist' means, so if that was meant as a provocation, then I will have to disappoint you. But that group gad the backing of the majority of the Lebanese people, does that make us all terrorists? Give me a definition of "terrorist" then we can discuss this point further.

Regarding Rice's words, we both know what she meant, there's no point hiding behind our fingers (like I said, I don't like 'shy debates'). The "new middle east" that was defeated in 2006 was reincarnated through the so-called Arab spring and has yielded success in certain areas. Too bad Frankenstien got loose on the village and is coming back after its creator...

You believe that the aim of the people that fire the rockets is to trigger alarms and scare people? Really? If one gets through the Iron dome then what? People will die. You are still advocating the murder of innocent people by people firing rockets miles away.

Yes, like I said, it's the so called 'balance of terror'.

Yes, innocent people will occasionally die, this is a war! But it can succeed in stopping the death of ten if not a hundred times more people on the other side as it did in Lebanon. Are suicide attacks or car bombs better? Suggest to me an effective way of resistance that is less like to kill civilians and I'm all for it.

That is true, there is at present time no way for the Palestinian's to affect the Israeli state's existence but out of interest what do you think would happen if they could?

If the Palestinians could affect the existence of Israel then you would not have been occupied and terrorized by it and hence they would have had no reason hate it, but then it wouldn't exist! It's a "self-destructing" question that doesn't have an answer.

No you achieve nothing but death, the death of people who the people with the guns and machete's had no right to take yesterday.

Yesterday's 'operation' only achieves more hatred and tarnishing the image of the Palestinian case. I was clear of that since the beginning. I am talking about rocket launching, not barbaric attacks on unarmed civilians.

Out of you interest what is your position on the Al - Aqsa in Islam and why you believe the Jew's shouldn't be allowed to worship at the temple mount?

To me? It's just some building. But to millions it is a symbol to something they believe in and because of that it is being used by Israel as a sure-proof provocation.

Again I didn't say they were just dying for what they believed is the greater good, I was arguing that the higher rationale was the acceptance of Shahid (as shown by the hadith of Muhammad) as an form of warfare that is completely unacceptable in Judaism and Christianity.

And I was arguing that people of other faiths have been considered as martyrs in the same manner even for the same cause here. Maybe I'm not getting your point here. Can you elaborate more, please?

Wow, that's a higher goal than I can ever believe happen in my lifetime

So is the peaceful coexistence of two states.

Out of interest, may I ask what faith you are?

Why? I think you've guessed my faith my answers above.

[DCS1984 28]

I don't even know what 'terrorist' means, so if that was meant as a provocation, then I will have to disappoint you. But that group gad the backing of the majority of the Lebanese people, does that make us all terrorists? Give me a definition of "terrorist" then we can discuss this point further. Regarding Rice's words, we both know what she meant, there's no point hiding behind our fingers (like I said, I don't like 'shy debates'). The "new middle east" that was defeated in 2006 was reincarnated through the so-called Arab spring and has yielded success in certain areas. Too bad Frankenstien got loose on the village and is coming back after its creator...

Firstly, it wasn't meant as a provocation at all. Hezbollah are classified as a terrorist group in the vast majority of countries worldwide, you may not agree with it's description as one which is up to you.

A political movement that uses terror as a weapon to achieve its goals - Terror e.g rocket attacks, suicide bombers against civilian targets.

Can you argue that Hezbollah haven't used these tactics against Israel?

You'll have to be clear on what you mean by the new middle east that was supposed to be created by America and possibly proxy Israel, I assume in 2006.

Yes, like I said, it's the so called 'balance of terror'. Yes, innocent people will occasionally die, this is a war! But it can succeed in stopping the death of ten if not a hundred times more people on the other side as it did in Lebanon. Are suicide attacks or car bombs better? Suggest to me an effective way of resistance that is less like to kill civilians and I'm all for it.

What war, there is no declared war between Israel and Palestine or Lebanon in international politics. You may turn around and call naive but it's true. There is no war between these countries. There is however agents or groups within the countries causing these events. This a critical difference between say a war between France and Germany where there are Governments to negotiate with. There should be no "balance of terror". As for a better way, Israel like the British Empire in India/Pakistan/Bangledesh is a democracy, could you not try Civil disobedience?

Yesterday's 'operation' only achieves more hatred and tarnishing the image of the Palestinian case. I was clear of that since the beginning. I am talking about rocket launching, not barbaric attacks on unarmed civilians.

At least we somewhat agree on something but still Rocket Launching is not some kind of high precision targeting system that you believe it to be. The majority are these -> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qassam_rocket

No one in their right mind believes these are high precision rockets. Since 2001, there has been 25207 rockets fired into Israel. Think about that for a second, do you believe these are all aimed at military targets?

To me? It's just some building. But to millions it is a symbol to something they believe in and because of that it is being used by Israel as a sure-proof provocation.

I am always interested in Muslim's believe about the Dome of the Rock and Al-Asqa mosque within the context of the night journey but it seems from you answers, you are not a Muslim (if you are sorry ) On the Al-Asqa mosque, yeah some Israeli's do want to open up the mount for themselves which has been denied since a short time in 618-20 c when the Persians controlled Jerusalem.

And I was arguing that people of other faiths have been considered as martyrs in the same manner even for the same cause here. Maybe I'm not getting your point here. Can you elaborate more, please?

Of course, I'll try to. What I am arguing is an elaboration on your point that you believed that the suicide bombers were doing it in a hope that it would bring their children or relatives a better life. While I was arguing the highier rationalization was the Shahid martyrdom philosophy that drove them too in a way that none of the other world religions can do. The other two Abrahamic Faiths have no such comparable (maybe Samson in the Philistine temple perhaps) to the "great reward" 4.74, the "trade" of your life in sacrifice to escape hell and enter the Garden (of eden) in 61:10-12 and the stories of Houri's in heaven for Martyrs etc which we can go into more detail if you want. It is not man made rewards that drive some of these people but god given rewards.

So is the peaceful coexistence of two states.

So do you believe that the conflict could/or would have been solved by a two state system? Because I wish I could see it happen but I doubt it

[CHOULO19 24,332]

Firstly, it wasn't meant as a provocation at all. Hezbollah are classified as a terrorist group in the vast majority of countries worldwide, you may not agree with it's description as one which is up to you.

That's factually incorrect. Only the US and Israel have Hezbollah on their terrorist list. Recently, the European council listed the "military branch" of Hezbollah as terrorist under US pressure which is just a big bag of meaningless political bullshit because the US was putting a lot of pressure on them but they can't practically put Hezbollah down as a terrorist group. That is because first they have a huge fan base in Lebanon, they have parliament and government members, political allies including the biggest Christian party in Lebanon atm, and all ambassadors of the European union and even the US in Lebanon have to deal and organize with them.

As for whether or not I think they are terrorists, I've answered this before and my answer remains the same: http://forum.talkchelsea.net/topic/7709-the-pub-discuss-anything/?p=760690

A political movement that uses terror as a weapon to achieve its goals - Terror e.g rocket attacks, suicide bombers against civilian targets.

Can you argue that Hezbollah haven't used these tactics against Israel?

I'm fine with that definition, but it makes the US, Israel, the UK and every single major force in the world a terrorist state as well. How can terrorist states decide who is terrorist?

Can you argue that Israel haven't used much much more brutal force on Lebanese and Palestinian civilians?

You'll have to be clear on what you mean by the new middle east that was supposed to be created by America and possibly proxy Israel, I assume in 2006.

The middle-east lost in what looks like a sectarian war between Sunnis and Shias with a completely destroyed Syrian and Iraq. Don't think a 'rogue' ISIS was on the plans, though.

What war, there is no declared war between Israel and Palestine or Lebanon in international politics. You may turn around and call naive but it's true. There is no war between these countries. There is however agents or groups within the countries causing these events. This a critical difference between say a war between France and Germany where there are Governments to negotiate with. There should be no "balance of terror".

That's not naive, that's anti-realistic. You're looking for loopholes in small technicalities to try and deny reality. What do you call two invasions, an 18 year occupation and countless battles? But I can be technical too. According to the Lebanese constitution, Israel is an enemy and the official Lebanese governments since 1990 have all considered the Israeli attacks on Lebanon as a war and have addressed the UN as such. So, from Lebanese point of view, the 93, 96 , and 06 were all wars between Israel and Lebanon.

And no, the agents and groups aren't causing the events simply because the effect can't come before the cause. What is causing the conflicts is the creation of a military state out of thin air to kick millions of people out of their houses to be replaced with people brought in from all around the world and that state happens to have constant ambitions to expand its borders at the expense of the neighboring countries.

As for a better way, Israel like the British Empire in India/Pakistan/Bangledesh is a democracy, could you not try Civil disobedience?

Civil disobedience? You really have no idea what Palestinians go through, do you? People in Gaza are living in an open air dense packed prison forced to be impoverished by the Israeli siege that is "putting Palestinians on a diet" according to an Israeli officer while getting bombed by the newest weaponry in the world every other year "like shooting fish in a barrel." In the West Bank, the people have their homes demolished and land stolen on a daily basis while having to face daily racism like Jew-only schools, Jew-only buses, Jew-only football clubs and even some Jew-only roads! Even the Palestinians who have an Israeli nationality are subject to hate crimes on a daily basis just like the West Bankers. Settlers and police kill Palestinians, run them over, burn down their mosques, break into their homes on a daily basis while 92% of hate crimes against Palestinians never even make it to Israeli courts according an Israeli NGO. You can't fight that kind of apartheid with civil disobedience.

At least we somewhat agree on something but still Rocket Launching is not some kind of high precision targeting system that you believe it to be.

The majority are these -> http://en.wikipedia....i/Qassam_rocket No one in their right mind believes these are high precision rockets. Since 2001, there has been 25207 rockets fired into Israel. Think about that for a second, do you believe these are all aimed at military targets?

I never said that they were highly accurate nor that they only target military targets. I was merely pointing out the advancement of rockets that Hamas have. What I said was that they are an effective and low-casualty means of resistance.

I am always interested in Muslim's believe about the Dome of the Rock and Al-Asqa mosque within the context of the night journey but it seems from you answers, you are not a Muslim (if you are sorry ) On the Al-Asqa mosque, yeah some Israeli's do want to open up the mount for themselves which has been denied since a short time in 618-20 c when the Persians controlled Jerusalem.

I won't debate it from a religious point of view because those are not my beliefs, but from a legal point of view, the Jews can't pray at the mount of rock because Israel has treaties and international agreements that says so most notably the peace treaty with Jordan. Politically, the timing for bringing up the issues now is no coincidence when the Israeli government seems to be inflicting collective punishment on the Palestinians for its own failure to achieve any of its goals in the last war Gazza.

Of course, I'll try to. What I am arguing is an elaboration on your point that you believed that the suicide bombers were doing it in a hope that it would bring their children or relatives a better life. While I was arguing the highier rationalization was the Shahid martyrdom philosophy that drove them too in a way that none of the other world religions can do. The other two Abrahamic Faiths have no such comparable (maybe Samson in the Philistine temple perhaps) to the "great reward" 4.74, the "trade" of your life in sacrifice to escape hell and enter the Garden (of eden) in 61:10-12 and the stories of Houri's in heaven for Martyrs etc which we can go into more detail if you want. It is not man made rewards that drive some of these people but god given rewards.

What are you assuming that the motivation of such act can only be religious? Can't atheists willingly die to protect their country and loved ones?

So do you believe that the conflict could/or would have been solved by a two state system? Because I wish I could see it happen but I doubt it

The two state solution is just a hoax to distract from any real attempts at peace and even if it is somehow implemented (which won't happen), there can never be peace between the two states.

[DCS1984 28]

That's factually incorrect. Only the US and Israel have Hezbollah on their terrorist list. Recently, the European council listed the "military branch" of Hezbollah as terrorist under US pressure which is just a big bag of meaningless political bullshit because the US was putting a lot of pressure on them but they can't practically put Hezbollah down as a terrorist group. That is because first they have a huge fan base in Lebanon, they have parliament and government members, political allies including the biggest Christian party in Lebanon atm, and all ambassadors of the European union and even the US in Lebanon have to deal and organize with them.

Bahrian, Kuwait, Oman, Qatar, UAE, Canada, France, Israel, Netherlands and US for their entire organization.

The European Union, all 28 countries have the military wing as a terrorist organization. What part of Hezbollah does the terror? Think about it, the only reason the whole organization isn't on the terrorist list is they can actually negotiate with someone when problems occur without being hit with the "we don't negotiate with terrorists" accusation.

I'm fine with that definition, but it makes the US, Israel, the UK and every single major force in the world a terrorist state as well. How can terrorist states decide who is terrorist? Can you argue that Israel haven't used much much more brutal force on Lebanese and Palestinian civilians?

You know it doesn't work like that internationally and you are taking a terrorist or a party with military capabilities and put them on the same level as a state. Israel, the UK and the US are all signatures to the Geneva convention. Hammas, Hezbollah are not. Those countries are responsible for the actions they take and can be made accountable through due process. While there is no process for Hamas at all, who can put rockets in schools and hospitals etc while the Israeli's can't, they have to follow the rules of warfare.

The middle-east lost in what looks like a sectarian war between Sunnis and Shias with a completely destroyed Syrian and Iraq. Don't think a 'rogue' ISIS was on the plans, though.

I doubt a 'rogue' ISIS was in anyone's plans but you'll still have to prove that this was the purpose of the American government and not just conjecture.....

That's not naive, that's anti-realistic. You're looking for loopholes in small technicalities to try and deny reality. What do you call two invasions, an 18 year occupation and countless battles? But I can be technical too. According to the Lebanese constitution, Israel is an enemy and the official Lebanese governments since 1990 have all considered the Israeli attacks on Lebanon as a war and have addressed the UN as such. So, from Lebanese point of view, the 93, 96 , and 06 were all wars between Israel and Lebanon. And no, the agents and groups aren't causing the events simply because the effect can't come before the cause. What is causing the conflicts is the creation of a military state out of thin air to kick millions of people out of their houses to be replaced with people brought in from all around the world and that state happens to have constant ambitions to expand its borders at the expense of the neighboring countries.

That isn't true in 1993, 1996 or 2006 there was no state of war between Lebanon and Israel at all. Each time was it Israeli's firing into Lebanon to kick the conflict off? Was it a strike by the Lebanese airforce/army/navy on Israeli targets that started it? No it was attacks by a group that started the conflict not states. Also the creation of a military state? Why do you think Israel is a "military" as you call it? What happened in 1948, who refused to the Israeli's?

Civil disobedience? You really have no idea what Palestinians go through, do you? People in Gaza are living in an open air dense packed prison forced to be impoverished by the Israeli siege that is "putting Palestinians on a diet" according to an Israeli officer while getting bombed by the newest weaponry in the world every other year "like shooting fish in a barrel." In the West Bank, the people have their homes demolished and land stolen on a daily basis while having to face daily racism like Jew-only schools, Jew-only buses, Jew-only football clubs and even some Jew-only roads! Even the Palestinians who have an Israeli nationality are subject to hate crimes on a daily basis just like the West Bankers. Settlers and police kill Palestinians, run them over, burn down their mosques, break into their homes on a daily basis while 92% of hate crimes against Palestinians never even make it to Israeli courts according an Israeli NGO. You can't fight that kind of apartheid with civil disobedience.

It's terrible what's happening in the Gaza Strip no-one can deny this. The quote you have used from Dov Weissglass who isn't an Israeli officer but a business man with close links to the old Ariel Sharon government.

"The idea is to put the Palestinians on a diet, but not to make them die of hunger." It is in reference to a carrot and stick approach to stop the attacks on Israel not a planned genocide. However he has always denied saying this.

There are Muslim/Christian/Jewish only faith schools here in the UK too. There is Athletic Bilbao that only allows Basques to play for them. The Jew only roads, I can believe that being in Palestine with the checkpoints. I'm surprised you have mentioned the giant wall they have built too, which is a disgrace.

Sadly it does seem that the previous attempts at Civil disobedience are quickly nipped in the bud so to say by Israeli capturing of their leaders. However this happened to the Congress Party too and they managed to keep the protests going non-violently. Imagine how the world would react to a complete strike by Palestinians rather than isolated attacks.

I never said that they were highly accurate nor that they only target military targets. I was merely pointing out the advancement of rockets that Hamas have. What I said was that they are an effective and low-casualty means of resistance.

It's not Hamas that should be firing these rockets, they are the government of Palestine now and should be working through diplomatic channels to attempt for however long it takes to resolve this with the Israelis. Again, the rockets kill innocent people and as you say are not highly accurate or military targets, my argument is these people firing the rockets have no right to aim inaccurate rockets from highly populated civilan areas into highly populated civilian areas. It's a crime Choulo and these people are committing murder not warfare.

I won't debate it from a religious point of view because those are not my beliefs, but from a legal point of view, the Jews can't pray at the mount of rock because Israel has treaties and international agreements that says so most notably the peace treaty with Jordan. Politically, the timing for bringing up the issues now is no coincidence when the Israeli government seems to be inflicting collective punishment on the Palestinians for its own failure to achieve any of its goals in the last war Gazza

True closing the Temple mount is in violation of the 1994 treaty as Jordan is the holder of the Muslim holy places in Jerusalem also Jew's can't pray at the Temple mount until the 3rd Temple is built. That obviously would require the demolition of the Dome of the Rock and the Al-Asqa Mosque which well would probably cause World War 3

What are you assuming that the motivation of such act can only be religious? Can't atheists willingly die to protect their country and loved ones?

Choulo I'm talking about the higher reasoning behind many (not all) of the suicide bombings not the secular, earthly ones. How do you protect your loved ones by blowing up a cafe? All you do is commit murder.

The two state solution is just a hoax to distract from any real attempts at peace and even if it is somehow implemented (which won't happen), there can never be peace between the two states.

Maybe.... one day. You have to hope/pray.

[CHOULO19 24,332]

Bahrian, Kuwait, Oman, Qatar, UAE, Canada, France, Israel, Netherlands and US for their entire organization.

The European Union, all 28 countries have the military wing as a terrorist organization. What part of Hezbollah does the terror? Think about it, the only reason the whole organization isn't on the terrorist list is they can actually negotiate with someone when problems occur without being hit with the "we don't negotiate with terrorists" accusation.

Bahrain, Kuwait, Oman, Qatar, UAE and Canada all have the same list of terrorists as the USA. And that's not "a lot of countries" at all. All of them, including the listing of the "military branch" (which does not exist, because Hezbollah is Hezbollah, in leaders and management in all domains) are political bullshit to put pressure on Iran. All of these countries still coordinate with Hezbollah publicly regarding all issues on Lebanon.

You know it doesn't work like that internationally and you are taking a terrorist or a party with military capabilities and put them on the same level as a state. Israel, the UK and the US are all signatures to the Geneva convention. Hammas, Hezbollah are not. Those countries are responsible for the actions they take and can be made accountable through due process. While there is no process for Hamas at all, who can put rockets in schools and hospitals etc while the Israeli's can't, they have to follow the rules of warfare.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Yeah, Israel, the UK and US are always held responsible for their terrorist activities!

Seriously, let's not insult anyone's intelligence with statements like that. The label "terrorist" is owned by the father of real terrorism that are the so called superpowers of the world and they slap it on anyone that disagrees with them to scare the public when in fact it has lost all meaning because of the glaringly obvious double standards.

I doubt a 'rogue' ISIS was in anyone's plans but you'll still have to prove that this was the purpose of the American government and not just conjecture.....

Hey look, John McCain with the 'Khaleefa' of ISIS and some of the highest ranking Al Qaeda related group leaders in Syrian:

That isn't true in 1993, 1996 or 2006 there was no state of war between Lebanon and Israel at all. Each time was it Israeli's firing into Lebanon to kick the conflict off? Was it a strike by the Lebanese airforce/army/navy on Israeli targets that started it? No it was attacks by a group that started the conflict not states. Also the creation of a military state? Why do you think Israel is a "military" as you call it? What happened in 1948, who refused to the Israeli's?

The Lebanese constitution and every single Lebanese government in the past 25 years considers Israel an enemy of Lebanon and any military action by it on Lebanese soil an act of war. On our side, they are officially wars. Don't try to dress them up.

And yes, Israel is a military state because the state was created by the military and not the other way around. It was created by the force of the British army and maintained by extremist Jewish militias that were later transformed into the Israeli army. The citizens of the state were brought in from all over the world and the original citizens of the land kicked out by this military force.

It's terrible what's happening in the Gaza Strip no-one can deny this. The quote you have used from Dov Weissglass who isn't an Israeli officer but a business man with close links to the old Ariel Sharon government. "The idea is to put the Palestinians on a diet, but not to make them die of hunger." It is in reference to a carrot and stick approach to stop the attacks on Israel not a planned genocide. However he has always denied saying this.

It's not the quote itself but the mentality that it conveys that is very wide spread among all Israelis that Palestinians are their inferiors and they can basically do anything to them with no implications.

There are Muslim/Christian/Jewish only faith schools here in the UK too. There is Athletic Bilbao that only allows Basques to play for them. The Jew only roads, I can believe that being in Palestine with the checkpoints. I'm surprised you have mentioned the giant wall they have built too, which is a disgrace.

You make it sound so natural when in fact it is the same kind of racism that was in the US 50 years ago and the same kind of apartheid that was in South Africa.

On a related note, was Mandela a terrorist? He was listed as one by "a lot of countries around the world" and stayed on the US list until a few years before his death.

Sadly it does seem that the previous attempts at Civil disobedience are quickly nipped in the bud so to say by Israeli capturing of their leaders. However this happened to the Congress Party too and they managed to keep the protests going non-violently. Imagine how the world would react to a complete strike by Palestinians rather than isolated attacks.

Strike of what exactly? How can the Gazans strike? The non-violent protests by Palestinians in the West Bank and Al Quds have always been met with live fire from the Israeli police. "If you lived in Gaza you would fire rockets on Israel too."

It's not Hamas that should be firing these rockets, they are the government of Palestine now and should be working through diplomatic channels to attempt for however long it takes to resolve this with the Israelis. Again, the rockets kill innocent people and as you say are not highly accurate or military targets, my argument is these people firing the rockets have no right to aim inaccurate rockets from highly populated civilan areas into highly populated civilian areas. It's a crime Choulo and these people are committing murder not warfare.

Crime, not warfare? They should get into their F16s and drop tons of explosives civilians instead? These people are murdered and dehumanized everyday and you're saying that their only means of genuine resistance is a crime?! I wonder what you think of Israel's military activities in Gaza, then?

Choulo I'm talking about the higher reasoning behind many (not all) of the suicide bombings not the secular, earthly ones. How do you protect your loved ones by blowing up a cafe? All you do is commit murder.

On Sept. 24, 1982, Khalid Alwan walked into the Wimpy Cafe in Beirut. He didn't blow it up, but he shot 4 Israeli soldiers. That operation sparked the resistance against the Israeli invasion of Beirut and the operations and attacks continued until a few months later the Israeli army was shouting through megaphones in Arabic: "Citizens of Beirut, stop your fire we are withdrawing."

Tell me he or the suicide bomber who took out the US marines barracks didn't help ensure that their kids and family live in a free city.

Maybe.... one day. You have to hope/pray.

I don't pray, and I may be a cynic, but false hope is foolish.