Politics & Stuff

[Stingray 9,441]

Politicus and idiots can be found at both sides .... See a lot of the former posts. My favorite was the young neonazi Israeli. Go figure.

Unfortunately the humanitarian disaster continues. People would do best to focus on that. Some think having an ethically stance it is a political statement. Be it as it may, the ethically load is on the supporters of these crimes against humanity.

UNRWA commissionair general new official statement:

MULTIPLE DEATHS AND INJURIES AT UNRWA SCHOOL IN BEIT HANOUN, GAZA

Jerusalem

The scenes of carnage and human suffering that we witnessed today at our elementary school in Beit Hanoun were so appalling and intolerable, that it is difficult to find the words to convey adequately my indignation. As has happened so many times in this pitiless conflict, civilians are paying the highest price of the current military escalation. I condemn this callous shelling and the extensive loss of life in the strongest possible terms and call for an immediate investigation to ensure that circumstances and responsibilities are comprehensively and irrefutably established.

At approximately 14:55 today, as hostilities were intensifying, UNRWA’s Beit Hanoun Elementary Co-Ed A and D school compound was struck by explosive projectiles, causing death and injuries to multiple displaced Palestinian civilians who had sought refuge in this UN installation. This school had been designated as an UNRWA Emergency Shelter.

The security situation in the Beit Hanoun area was deteriorating rapidly and over the course of the day UNRWA had been attempting to negotiate with the Israeli Defence Forces a pause in the fighting during which they would guarantee a safe corridor to relocate staff and any displaced persons who chose to evacuate to a more secure location. Approval for that never came to UNRWA. In addition, the school’s coordinates had been formally conveyed to the Israeli authorities on 12 occasions, most recently at 10:56 this morning.

These Palestinians, many of them women and children had come to this school for refuge believing that a UN installation would offer them a higher level of safety and security having been displaced from their homes as a result of the current fighting. That belief was based on the binding commitment of the international community and on the binding obligation of parties to the conflict under international law to respect the inviolability and sanctity of UN premises, and on the many years during which UNRWA has done its utmost to provide them protection.

This is the fourth time in the past four days that an UNRWA school has been struck by explosive projectiles. Today’s tragedy was yet another illustration that no one in Gaza is safe. I call once again on all parties to this conflict to recognize and respect the sanctity, neutrality and inviolability of UN premises. I further call for an immediate cease-fire to end the killing and maiming as well as the devastation and traumas that will mark the population for decades. Enough is enough.

[Fulham Broadway 17,091]

Four schools in four days - it is patently obvious that there is an official Israeli policy to murder women and little children.

[cosmicway 1,333]

The Pals although definitely wronged, never in their lives tried a peaceful approach.
They started with Leila Khaled beck in 1968, who at least did not hurt the passengers and she managed to enchant Sir Alec.
But 46 years later they keep using bombs and rockets against airplanes, passenger boats, street shops, to destroy the state of Israel. That way it does n't work and in the end the same weapons are used against them.

[Fulham Broadway 17,091]

To maintain and enforce its gains, Israel has to keep the Palestinians down or out, the Arabs away, and draw the West in. For this, it needs to employ pre-emptive and overwhelming force, while at the same time embrace, even embody victimhood, (bit like Liverpool), to elicit western as well as Jewish sympathy and support.

This is best captured by the Hebrew phrase, yorim ve bochim, literally "shooting and crying". This is done with cheap cliches and crude lies using Western media.

Another Yiddish word 'Chutzpah'.

Its meaning is best explained in anecdotes. For example, killing one's own parents and then begging the court to have mercy on an orphan. Or, as the Arab proverb goes, "He hit me and cried, went ahead of me and whined."

'Chutzpah' in israel is seen as street, nervy and clever. It is used in everyday life and Foreign Policy.

The mother of all chutzpahs came from the late Israeli premier Golda Meir about half a century ago: "We can forgive the Arabs for killing our sons , but we can never forgive them for forcing us to kill their children." The new version blames the Palestinians for civilian deaths in Gaza, and praises Israel for sparing lives, even after the Israel offensive kills over a thousand Palestinians.

It's the ultimate chutzpah when Israel government expresses empathy with the ill-fated civilian victims, as it gives the orders to the Israeli military to bomb entire Palestinian communities.

Rarely is chutzpah more pronounced as when Israel provokes attacks and cries self-defence.

Israel's offensive against Gaza in 2006 came after the killing of 85 Palestinians, including many children, in attacks aimed at carrying out illegal extrajudicial assassinations. At the time, the Hamas government maintained a one-sided ceasefire for 15 months, but continued Israeli attacks made Palestinian retaliation only a question of time.

Although Israel's provocations don't justify suicide bombings against Israeli civilians, they demonstrate why the main source of violence lies first and foremost in Israel's pre-emptive strategy.

So when you hear those responsible for more than 40 years of occupation ranting about the violation of a four-hour ceasefire, think chutzpah. And when the occupiers continue to whine about security in order to deny the indigenous people of the land the same rights for security and peace in their own land, think chutzpah.

If Israelis have a right to security, independence and freedom, the Palestinians have the same rights and perhaps more of a right after decades of Israeli terror, military occupation, and dispossession.

[CHOULO19 24,332]

Another two massacres today. Another attack on an UNRWA school in the morning killed 19; almost all women and children.

Then during the 4-hour "ceasefire" in the afternoon, when people went out to the market to restock, the IOF targeted the crowded market place. 17 people killed including a journalist and cameraman and two paramedics and about 200 injured.

I don't have words anymore. Sigh...

[Dion 2,476]

How likely is it for muslim countries to interfere military again in the conflict if Israel goes on with this massacre? How attached are they to the palestinians, who are fellow muslims?

Realistically speaking, I can see only two outcomes to this. Israel killing the last palestinian and nobody giving a shit or muslim countries deciding it's enough and wiping Israel from existance.

[Fulham Broadway 17,091]

  On 30/07/2014 at 20:06, CHOULO19 said:

Another two massacres today. Another attack on an UNRWA school in the morning killed 19; almost all women and children.

Then during the 4-hour "ceasefire" in the afternoon, when people went out to the market to restock, the IOF targeted the crowded market place. 17 people killed including a journalist and cameraman and two paramedics and about 200 injured.

I don't have words anymore. Sigh...

Know what you mean. Its not flavour of the month with corporate media headlines now -ebola virus and immigration taken over here.

What is cathartic though when youve lost words is actions. I have been on two demonstrations now. Maybe it doesnt change much, but you can let off steam. Are there any protests in lebanon ?

[Mohammed Seif 1,451]

  On 30/07/2014 at 20:25, Dion said:

How likely is it for muslim countries to interfere military again in the conflict if Israel goes on with this massacre? How attached are they to the palestinians, who are fellow muslims?

Realistically speaking, I can see only two outcomes to this. Israel killing the last palestinian and nobody giving a shit or muslim countries deciding it's enough and wiping Israel from existance.

First of all it is not a religious war, so the terminology is somewhat inaccurate. It is not some sort of crusade. But let us look at the region. Which "Arab Muslim" has an army capable of fighting Israel? No more Syria, no more Iraq. There is only one country that has the military capability to take on Israel and that is Egypt. We have a peace treaty with Israel so that can't happen. You also have to know that if Israel is attacked by a "proper army", other countries will join with Israel, That was the case in 1973, where the U.S sent in planes with fighters. A war with Israel means a war with atleast two or three countries. I don't think the U.K will sit and watch. Some sort of coalition will be formed to defend Israel. You need more than one army. If Egypt didn't have the treaty, things might have been different.

[CHOULO19 24,332]

  On 30/07/2014 at 20:46, Fulham Broadway said:

Know what you mean. Its not flavour of the month with corporate media headlines now -ebola virus and immigration taken over here.

What is cathartic though when youve lost words is actions. I have been on two demonstrations now. Maybe it doesnt change much, but you can let off steam. Are there any protests in lebanon ?

Not 'protests' because by our constitution Israel is an enemy; more like support rallies. I went to one, but there aren't many happening because car bombs are still a threat, so the gouvernment is wary of any crowded demonstrations.

There have been a few gestures which probably psychelogically help more. The parliament had a special session in support of Gaza and Am Musil in Iraq, and the names if all the martyrs were hung on the iconic Rawshe rock in Beirut.

But the gesture that really moved me, was all the news stations of all the political parties in Lebanon, the parties that have been fighting since forever, came together and broadcasted a unified news bulliten in support of Gaza. If you know the depth of the political disagreements in Lebanon, you'd know how big a step that is.

Social media and on forums is where I let off steam. I think exposing the truth to the whole world, especially people in the west, can make a difference. Tjanks to social media, this has been one of the best covered attack on Gaza I have witnessed, and this has helped sway the opinions of a lot of people, especially in Europe.

[Dion 2,476]

  On 30/07/2014 at 21:01, Mohammed Seif said:

First of all it is not a religious war, so the terminology is somewhat inaccurate. It is not some sort of crusade. But let us look at the region. Which "Arab Muslim" has an army capable of fighting Israel? No more Syria, no more Iraq. There is only one country that has the military capability to take on Israel and that is Egypt. We have a peace treaty with Israel so that can't happen. You also have to know that if Israel is attacked by a "proper army", other countries will join with Israel, That was the case in 1973, where the U.S sent in planes with fighters. A war with Israel means a war with atleast two or three countries. I don't think the U.K will sit and watch. Some sort of coalition will be formed to defend Israel. You need more than one army. If Egypt didn't have the treaty, things might have been different.

I never said it was a religious war. But muslim countries seem the most probable candidates to care about what happens to the palestinians. I also didn't mean only the countries who share borders. Does Iran care, for example?

[CHOULO19 24,332]

  On 30/07/2014 at 20:25, Dion said:

How likely is it for muslim countries to interfere military again in the conflict if Israel goes on with this massacre? How attached are they to the palestinians, who are fellow muslims?

Realistically speaking, I can see only two outcomes to this. Israel killing the last palestinian and nobody giving a shit or muslim countries deciding it's enough and wiping Israel from existance.

Very unlikely. There is a lot if sympathy and outrage in the region from the people, Muslim or otherwise, but all the governments don't come near living up to the peoples wishes when it comes to Palestine. Arab leaders are mostly traitors that would sell their own children for power.

It's a bit more complicated than that though. Arabs are notoriously terrible at politics. Our cultures seem unable to see long term in anything so either decisions are made on current petty political issues. Right now, Qatar supports and fund Hamas because they are trying to buy their way into a political role in the region that is bigger than them. KSA naturally does the opposite and are most likely funding the Israeli army in secret. Under the table as well, Iran is arming some of the Palestinian resistance militias, including Hamas (or some parts of Hamas, at least). Hamas is coy of the Iranan support because their main sponsor, Qatar, are in a Cold War, a long with most of the gulf, with Iran. But the Iranians are much better at politics than us and can see the big long term picture so they are fine with arming them without getting the recognition.

In Lebanon, Hezbollah has trained the Palestinian resistance before the war in Syria and even helped arming both directly and indirectly through teaching them how to manufacture the weapons themselves. This attack seems to have mended the broken relationship between Hezboullah and Hamas.

[Mohammed Seif 1,451]

  On 30/07/2014 at 21:20, Dion said:

I never said it was a religious war. But muslim countries seem the most probable candidates to care about what happens to the palestinians. I also didn't mean only the countries who share borders. Does Iran care, for example?

Sure, Arab Muslim countries are the candidates, but you have to look at their current economical status and military power. The strongest military countries are Egypt and Algeria. Before it was those two plus Syria and Iraq. Still they weren't that strong, but sufficient enough to cause damage if united with Egypt and Algeria. 25% of the Arab population are Egyptian. Iraq is lost so is Syria. So out of the Arab countries two are still capable only. Now Let us look at Iran like you suggested. Iran has one of the strongest military power in the region. Economically devastated. They are capable of defensive operations but not an offensive one. Even of they do have the capability to attack. The U.S have been targeting Iran since they removed the Shah of Iran. Just before the U.S turned its back on Iraq, it aided them to enter a long 8 year war with Iran in 1980. It was a chemical warfare btw, where the U.S aided the aggressors at the time (Iraq). That failed and they have been waiting since to figure a way to dismantle Iran. That was actually one of the main reasons Iran seeked nuclear power because it is feeling constant threat. Now Iran is being portrayed throughout the world as a major threat, not only to the region but to the world. Can you imagine what would happen if Iran fires a bullet towards Israel? Do you know how many countries will attack Iran? Not only will Iran fail to defend Palestinians, it will fail to protect itself. Fighting Israel means fighting more than one country. It means atleast fighting Israel and the U.S. So by all means it is not a simple decision. But, if you observe carefully, things are about to change within the next decade or so.

[Fulham Broadway 17,091]

  On 30/07/2014 at 21:19, CHOULO19 said:

Not 'protests' because by our constitution Israel is an enemy; more like support rallies. I went to one, but there aren't many happening because car bombs are still a threat, so the gouvernment is wary of any crowded demonstrations.

There have been a few gestures which probably psychelogically help more. The parliament had a special session in support of Gaza and Am Musil in Iraq, and the names if all the martyrs were hung on the iconic Rawshe rock in Beirut.

But the gesture that really moved me, was all the news stations of all the political parties in Lebanon, the parties that have been fighting since forever, came together and broadcasted a unified news bulliten in support of Gaza. If you know the depth of the political disagreements in Lebanon, you'd know how big a step that is.

Social media and on forums is where I let off steam. I think exposing the truth to the whole world, especially people in the west, can make a difference. Tjanks to social media, this has been one of the best covered attack on Gaza I have witnessed, and this has helped sway the opinions of a lot of people, especially in Europe.

Good that lebanon is united about it. Just watched a film on al jazeera, and before the terrified gaza residents can blame Israel many are saying 'where are our arab brothers ?'

Its a tragic situation, and you know israel before they stop will commit an even bigger atrocity, as they always do.

Its not a normal situation, however the media like to portray it as two equal sides, as we know. In a normal conflict situation, the bottom line in terms of resolution is talk. Jaw, jaw, not war war. However this is the last thing Israel wants, they want to get rid of Gaza and have it like they have all the other occupied land, so they will constantly provoke and kill. Unfortunately there are no organisations that can help that much - we learned during my politics degree how US controlled the UN is- but perhaps the best hope is from the Arab league. They need to make concerted efforts, not to israel as this is pissing in the wind, but to the US and the west. History would need to be dug up, and truths presented about the artificial borders set up by the west and colonialism. A united arab diplomatic front, composed of muslim, christian, jewish representatives is to my mind the best hope of restraining israel, and a more important goal than a two state solution. Thoughts ?

[CHOULO19 24,332]

  On 30/07/2014 at 21:47, Mohammed Seif said:

Sure, Arab Muslim countries are the candidates, but you have to look at their current economical status and military power. The strongest military countries are Egypt and Algeria. Before it was those two plus Syria and Iraq. Still they weren't that strong, but sufficient enough to cause damage if united with Egypt and Algeria. 25% of the Arab population are Egyptian. Iraq is lost so is Syria. So out of the Arab countries two are still capable only. Now Let us look at Iran like you suggested. Iran has one of the strongest military power in the region. Economically devastated. They are capable of defensive operations but not an offensive one. Even of they do have the capability to attack. The U.S have been targeting Iran since they removed the Shah of Iran. Just before the U.S turned its back on Iraq, it aided them to enter a long 8 year war with Iran in 1980. It was a chemical warfare btw, where the U.S aided the aggressors at the time (Iraq). That failed and they have been waiting since to figure a way to dismantle Iran. That was actually one of the main reasons Iran seeked nuclear power because it is feeling constant threat. Now Iran is being portrayed throughout the world as a major threat, not only to the region but to the world. Can you imagine what would happen if Iran fires a bullet towards Israel? Do you know how many countries will attack Iran? Not only will Iran fail to defend Palestinians, it will fail to protect itself. Fighting Israel means fighting more than one country. It means atleast fighting Israel and the U.S. So by all means it is not a simple decision. But, if you observe carefully, things are about to change within the next decade or so.

The KSA has spent hundreds of billions of dollars on weapons. So has half the gulf countries..

But forget the weapons, even forget the oil card, which is one the most powerful cards on the world, no fat king or prince or even official from the gulf has so much as condemned the attack so far. We are all partners in the crime.

[Dion 2,476]

If none of them is going to interfere I can only assume Palestinians are definitely doomed. The israeli right wing only grows stronger by the day. Extremists gather more and more followers in both sides, which only takes us further away from peace and will only bring more attacks and hatred.

But what pisses me off more than anything else about this is that jews should know better than anyone else how it feels to be expelled from your own land and to be discriminated against. Or how it feels to have another people try to exterminate your own people. Hypocrisy doesn't even come close to describe the situation. When they were weaker and minority in Palestine, this was not the way they were treated. I mean, there were of course problems here and there, as one should expect from two different groups living together, but not government enforced discrimination like what we're seeing now.

Human stupidity annoys me like no other.

[CHOULO19 24,332]

  On 30/07/2014 at 21:50, Fulham Broadway said:

Good that lebanon is united about it. Just watched a film on al jazeera, and before the terrified gaza residents can blame Israel many are saying 'where are our arab brothers ?'

Its a tragic situation, and you know israel before they stop will commit an even bigger atrocity, as they always do.

Its not a normal situation, however the media like to portray it as two equal sides, as we know. In a normal conflict situation, the bottom line in terms of resolution is talk. Jaw, jaw, not war war. However this is the last thing Israel wants, they want to get rid of Gaza and have it like they have all the other occupied land, so they will constantly provoke and kill. Unfortunately there are no organisations that can help that much - we learned during my politics degree how US controlled the UN is- but perhaps the best hope is from the Arab league. They need to make concerted efforts, not to israel as this is pissing in the wind, but to the US and the west. History would need to be dug up, and truths presented about the artificial borders set up by the west and colonialism. A united arab diplomatic front, composed of muslim, christian, jewish representatives is to my mind the best hope of restraining israel, and a more important goal than a two state solution. Thoughts ?

Honestly, I have more faith in Israel than in the Arab league! They're all a bunch of over fed tyrants that know nothing and care nothing about the people. All they care about is power and sex. Just look up the quotes by Tzipi Livni where she said that she slept with some Arab leaders when she the minister of foreign affairs to get them to change their political stance including dropping their support for Lebanon during the 2006 assault.

If there ever will be a change to the current 'equation' it would mostly likely come from the people themselves.

[Dion 2,476]

I also find it funny when israelis talk about fighting terrorism and not compromising with terrorist groups when they had the "paramilitary" group Haganah/Irgun - it never ceases to amaze me which groups history decides to name terrorist or paramilitary/freedom fighters/resistance/militia/whatever.

[Fulham Broadway 17,091]

  On 30/07/2014 at 22:07, CHOULO19 said:

Honestly, I have more faith in Israel than in the Arab league! They're all a bunch of over fed tyrants that know nothing and care nothing about the people. All they care about is power and sex. Just look up the quotes by Tzipi Livni where she said that she slept with some Arab leaders when she the minister of foreign affairs to get them to change their political stance including dropping their support for Lebanon during the 2006 assault.

If there ever will be a change to the current 'equation' it would mostly likely come from the people themselves.

Jesus! ' More faith in israel than the arab league' they must be bad. Unfortunately "change from the people" would not include israelis seeing as more than 90% support the slaughter. Even knesset dissenters are ousted and branded as traitors.

The future looks very bleak for Palestinians, save an ideological global moment of truth -we're all spinning on a ball in space, all money spent on weapons should be spent on exploring that space, no nation states, no gods, no masters.