Politics & Stuff

[haranr 485]

Hey guys, you have told me it's the biggest lie ever that the Quran encourages to fight everyone who isn't a Muslim.

Can anyone explain me this line?:Fight those who do not believe in Allah or in the Last Day and who do not consider unlawful what Allah and His Messenger have made unlawful and who do not adopt the religion of truth from those who were given the Scripture - [fight] until they give the jizyah willingly while they are humbled.

[Mohammed Seif 1,451]

Hey guys, you have told me it's the biggest lie ever that the Quran encourages to fight everyone who isn't a Muslim.

Can anyone explain me this line?:Fight those who do not believe in Allah or in the Last Day and who do not consider unlawful what Allah and His Messenger have made unlawful and who do not adopt the religion of truth from those who were given the Scripture - [fight] until they give the jizyah willingly while they are humbled.

Chapter and verse?

Nvm. its Surat El Tawba, verse 29

Edited July 13, 2014 by Mohammed Seif

[Stingray 9,441]

1999-2000 Israel offers 95% of the West Bank to the Palestines. They refuse. Why? I really don't know.

Try this to find an answer

http://www.filmsforaction.org/watch/occupation_101_voices_of_a_silenced_majority/

95% of a prison is still a prison. Not my quote. UN Human rights persons quote.

[haranr 485]

Chapter and verse?

Nvm. its Surat El Tawba, verse 29

Can you explain this to me?

[haranr 485]

Try this to find an answer

http://www.filmsforaction.org/watch/occupation_101_voices_of_a_silenced_majority/

95% of a prison is still a prison. Not my quote. UN Human rights persons quote.

??? doesn't make any sense. Israel offered them land. There is no excuse for declining that. You have to be objective mate.

[Stingray 9,441]

??? doesn't make any sense. Israel offered them land. There is no excuse for declining that. You have to be objective mate.

I am. Just watch all the footage. There is a reason i posted that video.

I mean no hostility with my post.

[haranr 485]

Israel SHOULD raid Hamas from the ground and set-up a new system in Gaza for the sake of most innocent Palestines AND South Israel's population. At the same time, they should continue 'peace talks' and try to promote a solution.

Israel are the ones with the 'power' therefore they should act as the 'mature' figure and help out the majority of Palestines who are NOT radical.

[haranr 485]

It's simple they not interested in parts of the land, they want all the land a thing that they will never get. they will never compromise and that's why peace is not achievable.

They HAVE and WILL compromise.

[Muzchap 8,966]

They HAVE and WILL compromise.

It's a tough situation that continues to fester

It's just so unfair on many Palestine people - Hamas are a militant faction - I bet most people just want to live their life.

I have no problem with Israel taking action - just wish Hamas weren't such cowards - bunkering themselves with women and children as shields (if the news stories are to be believed)

Sad times indeed

[Fulham Broadway 17,306]

Try this to find an answerhttp://www.filmsforaction.org/watch/occupation_101_voices_of_a_silenced_majority/

95% of a prison is still a prison. Not my quote. UN Human rights persons quote.

Excellent film, good analysis

[LDN Blue 7,903]

Stingray, what do you think about Norman Finkelstein?

[Mohammed Seif 1,451]

Hey guys, you have told me it's the biggest lie ever that the Quran encourages to fight everyone who isn't a Muslim.

Can anyone explain me this line?:Fight those who do not believe in Allah or in the Last Day and who do not consider unlawful what Allah and His Messenger have made unlawful and who do not adopt the religion of truth from those who were given the Scripture - [fight] until they give the jizyah willingly while they are humbled.

Can you explain this to me?

Now that the game is over I can concentrate and answer you . I will try to be as short as possible. Now when a non Muslim throws a text at me an tells me explain this, one can only assume two motives:

a) This person is trying to take a shot at Islam and portray it as a " bloody religion or violent one". In that case my response would be: go somewhere else and spread your hatred and you can stop reading at the end of this sentence.

b ) Someone who wants to understand and hence I would say, I am delighted to explain and share my knowledge of my faith, Islam, with you. So keep reading

But who am I to judge on what is in people's heart and what intentions they have? For the sake of transparency, I will use the Arabic texts, and the most spread English Translation of Yusuf Ali. Ofcourse feel free to seek any translation you are comfortable with.

N.B. Quran is only in Arabic and the translations are attempts by the authors to explain the meaning of the verse in their own choice of words

Before we go to the "suspicious" verse, we need to understand some principles and rules in Islam. Rules regarding fighting.

Rule 1: Surat Al Baqarah, verse 190

وَقَاتِلُواْ فِي سَبِيلِ اللَّهِ الَّذِينَ يُقَاتِلُونَكُمْ وَلاَ تَعْتَدُواْ إِنَّ اللَّهَ لاَ يُحِبُّ الْمُعْتَدِينَ

190. Fight in the cause of God

Those who fight you,

But do not transgress limits;

For God loveth not transgressors.

So basically we fight in defense not attack. Attacking others is forbidden. This is the RULE OF ENGAGEMENT.

Rule 2: Surat Al-Isra'a, verse 33:

وَلاَ تَقْتُلُواْ النَّفْسَ الَّتِي حَرَّمَ اللَّهُ إِلاَّ بِالْحَقِّ وَمَن قُتِلَ مَظْلُومًا فَقَدْ جَعَلْنَا لِوَلِيِّهِ سُلْطَانًا فَلاَ يُسْرِف فِّي الْقَتْلِ إِنَّهُ كَانَ مَنْصُورًا

33. Nor take life—which God

Has made sacred—except

For just cause. And if

Anyone is slain wrongfully,

We have given his heir

Authority (to demand Qiṣāṣ

Or to forgive): but let him

Not exceed bounds in the matter

Of taking life; for he

Is helped (by the Law).

We are not to take a life wrongfully ( i.e anyone who hasn't killed or is attempting to kill in a war, basically someone shooting at you not someone you think might shoot at you. It has to be immenent like I guy pointing a weapon at you and shooting), and if we do we then we can be either punished or forgiven depending on the family of the victim. The "eye for an eye, life for a life " applies here, as well as forgiveness. So there is a spectrum from death to total forgiveness. In between, that is left for society to decide. i,e. If a society decides that you pay money for the family, then be it. If it decides on execution, then be it. If they decide prison, or social work, again then be it. The point is there are the boundaries and people/society should determine what serves them well. This is put through human made law, such as life in prison.

There was a serial killer known in the U.S. called Gary Ridgway who abducted and killed many women. During his sentence, as the U.S judiciary system allows, the family of the victims spoke. All of them wanted him dead for what he did for their sisters, mothers, daughters, wives and families. They wanted him dead for what he did. This is a very natural human feeling in such hurtful times. One of the victim's family was a Priest. He was the only man to say to him that he forgives him. He said that he found the strength of faith that makes him go up that level. Same in Islam, you have the right to seek fair justice, but you can also rise up and forgive, hence we believe we will be rewarded.

Now about the payment, like I said, and example will be jail sentence. Another, that you will be familiar with is paying money as compensation, just like the Germans had to pay to the Jews due to the Holocaust. It is an agreed amount that the aggressor pays. In Egypt, if you kill someone wrongfully unintentionally, e.g, car accident, you can face prison or pay compensation or both depending on the circumstances of the accident.

Ok, let us now go to the verse that you quoted its translation.

Surat Al Tawba, verse 29:

قَاتِلُواْ الَّذِينَ لاَ يُؤْمِنُونَ بِاللَّهِ وَلاَ بِالْيَوْمِ الآخِرِ وَلاَ يُحَرِّمُونَ مَا حَرَّمَ اللَّهُ وَرَسُولُهُ وَلاَ يَدِينُونَ دِينَ الْحَقِّ مِنَ الَّذِينَ أُوتُواْ الْكِتَابَ حَتَّى يُعْطُواْ الْجِزْيَةَ عَن يَدٍ وَهُمْ صَاغِرُونَ

29. Fight those who believe not

In God nor the Last Day,

Nor hold that forbidden

Which hath been forbidden

By God and His Apostle,

Nor acknowledge the Religion

Of Truth, (even if they are)

Of the People of the Book,

Until they pay the Jizya

With willing submission,

And feel themselves subdued.

Now let is apply this text to the rules. Should we fight Christians and Jews or any others? Yes, but if and ONLY IF we are defending ourselves from their attack as the rule of engagement says. Such is called in the modern life " National Defense/Security". Notice that the word used is "fight" not kill. i.e. a Muslim doesn't have to kill unless he is forced to like in warfare. So if the enemy/ aggressor surrenders/ gets injured/caught, then I don't have to kill him. If I do, then I have broken the second rule and that is taking a life wrongfully on purpose. This applies to a fight with anyone not just the Jews and Christians. It applies to aggressor Muslims too and everyone else.

So you may ask yourself a question, and that is why mention the people of the book i.e. Jews and Christians. That is simply because part of our core faith is to believe in them and know that they follow the same God as ours. We consider Judaism and Christianity as cousin faiths to Muslim.( Ismael and Israel the sons of Ibrahim)

Surat Al Baqarah, verse 285:

آمَنَ الرَّسُولُ بِمَا أُنزِلَ إِلَيْهِ مِن رَّبِّهِ وَالْمُؤْمِنُونَ كُلٌّ آمَنَ بِاللَّهِ وَمَلائِكَتِهِ وَكُتُبِهِ وَرُسُلِهِ لاَ نُفَرِّقُ بَيْنَ أَحَدٍ مِّن رُّسُلِهِ وَقَالُواْ سَمِعْنَا وَأَطَعْنَا غُفْرَانَكَ رَبَّنَا وَإِلَيْكَ الْمَصِيرُ

285. The Apostle believeth

In what hath been revealed

To him from his Lord,

As do the men of faith.

Each one (of them) believeth

In God, His angels,

His books, and His apostles.

"We make no distinction (they say)

Between one and another

Of His apostles." And they say:

"We hear, and we obey:

(We seek) Thy forgiveness,

Our Lord, and to Thee

Is the end of all journeys."

We have to believe in all and not differentiate between them as saying this Prophet is better than that. They are all equal messengers of God in our eyes. An insult to Jesus, Moses, Mohammed, Noah, David, Jacob, Suliman or any is the same. They are all equal to us in value as righteous men and messengers.

Also we were told in the Quran, how to disagree and debate with people of different faiths and non believers in God

Surat Al Nahl, verse 125

ادْعُ إِلَى سَبِيلِ رَبِّكَ بِالْحِكْمَةِ وَالْمَوْعِظَةِ الْحَسَنَةِ وَجَادِلْهُم بِالَّتِي هِيَ أَحْسَنُ إِنَّ رَبَّكَ هُوَ أَعْلَمُ بِمَن ضَلَّ عَن سَبِيلِهِ وَهُوَ أَعْلَمُ بِالْمُهْتَدِينَ

125. Invite (all) to the Way

Of thy Lord with wisdom

And beautiful preaching;

And argue with them

In ways that are best

And most gracious:

For thy Lord knoweth best,

Who have strayed from His Path,

And who receive guidance.

If someone acts out side these BASIC concepts, then it is not Islam's fault. It is the Muslim who decided to ignore what Islam says. (Notice the difference between a faith and how people act. If you find a perfect human being please make sure to tell me.)

Now, let me also clear out something. A human life is of vast importance to us. Any human life, atheist, Hindu, Buddhist, Christian, Jew, Muslim and any other.

Surat Al Ma'eda, verse 32:

مِنْ أَجْلِ ذَلِكَ كَتَبْنَا عَلَى بَنِي إِسْرَائِيلَ أَنَّهُ مَن قَتَلَ نَفْسًا بِغَيْرِ نَفْسٍ أَوْ فَسَادٍ فِي الأَرْضِ فَكَأَنَّمَا قَتَلَ النَّاسَ جَمِيعًا وَمَنْ أَحْيَاهَا فَكَأَنَّمَا أَحْيَا النَّاسَ جَمِيعًا وَلَقَدْ جَاءَتْهُمْ رُسُلُنَا بِالْبَيِّنَاتِ ثُمَّ إِنَّ كَثِيرًا مِّنْهُم بَعْدَ ذَلِكَ فِي الأَرْضِ لَمُسْرِفُونَ

32. 35 On that account: We ordained

For the Children of Israel

That if any one slew

A person—unless it be

For murder or for spreading

Mischief in the land—

It would be as if

He slew the whole people:

And if any one saved a life,

It would be as if he saved

The life of the whole people.

Then although there came

To them Our Apostles

With Clear Signs, yet,

Even after that, many

Of them continued to commit

Excesses in the land.

Killing an innocent human life, not a Muslim, not a Jew, not a Christian, A HUMAN LIFE, is like murdering the entire humanity.

Well now that I have clarified, the importance of a human life and the rules of engagement and its consequences, let us together see who uses this text that you asked about.

1) A Muslim, who uses it to take advantage of others' lack of knowledge and circumstance, in order to fulfill some sort of an agenda, usually political.

2) An Islamophobe or anti-Muslim, who wants to use texts in the Quran to portray Islam as a religion of violence and blood, again for a specific agenda.

3) A Muslim who wants to impress others by claiming his knowledge of some versus of the Quran.

4) Someone who seeks knowledge regardless of being a Muslim or a non-Muslim.

The first and the second are two faces of the same coin. They feed off of each others hate in order to fulfill an agenda.

The third is very dangerous, as he has the potential to pass false information to others who lack knowledge and misguide them.

The fourth is someone who I respect. He doesn't have to follow the faith by all means, but he wishes to understand so that people can break more barriers and learn to live together better and progress as a human race.A friend recently told me " A mind left poor, is a life not lived. "

Mind you, I am not a Sheikh or Imam. But this is really basic knowledge I get as others do from reading the Quran with the attempt to understand the words I am reading and how they relate to each other. In the Quran, we are encouraged to always think and question things. That is how you seek knowledge and understand.

So to sum it up:

a) Fight back anyone who attacks you including Christians and Jews. ( National Defense)

b ) Don't wrongfully but purposely take a life. ( Kill someone who did nothing to you, e.g, civilians or suspects....etc)

c) The aggressor can pay Jizyah ; money ( like in the the case of Germany and Israel), prison sentencing/execution/social work depending on society and its' rules

d) the aggressor can be forgiven if the family of the victim says so.

e)In case of execution, only the criminal will be executed, not his son, friend or any other family member. Anyone not involved should not be harmed.

f) Muslims who know their religion value human lives regardless of faith and beliefs and should not engage in any aggression by words or actions. Should always seek knowledge and debate with reason in a pleasant why. ( I ain't a perfect one unfortunately but I have my moments )

So if any Muslim throws a " war verse at you", now you can tell him to go read his book again as he knows nothing. If any Islamophobe wants to have a go at Islam by using random texts, then again, he hasn't read the Quran with a purpose to understand, therefore he will misquote/ misinterpret/ or take out of context and that is sooooooooooo easy to take on.

Hope that helped buddy, or shall I call you cousin ? Please feel free to ask other Muslims who studied their religion well and know good Arabic.

[MrExcalibur100 7,124]

.

[MrExcalibur100 7,124]

What's up bro? Read the next verse, Qur'an 9:30. I think the context to the preceding verse is very clear.

The Jews say, "Ezra is the son of Allah "; and the Christians say, "The Messiah is the son of Allah ." That is their statement from their mouths; they imitate the saying of those who disbelieved [before them]. May Allah destroy them; how are they deluded?

It's very clear. The reason why Jews and Muslims must be fought is because of their belief, not because Muslims are fighting back in self defense. This is a common deflective tactic that Imam's use to explain away this verse. And it continues in the next verse. Allah complaining about "unbelief". Nothing about self defense:

They have taken their scholars and monks as lords besides Allah , and [also] the Messiah, the son of Mary. And they were not commanded except to worship one God; there is no deity except Him. Exalted is He above whatever they associate with Him.

"Now, let me also clear out something. A human life is of vast importance to us" --------------

How true is this? Qur'an 48:29

Muhammad is the messenger of Allah. And those with him are hard against the disbelievers and merciful among themselves…

More to the point, Allah certainly doesn't consider Non-Muslims equal to Muslims. Qur'an 8:55:

Surely the vilest of animals in Allah's sight are those who disbelieve, then they would not believe.

And it continues in Qur'an 98:6:

Those who disbelieve from among the People of the Book and among the Polytheists, will be in Hell-Fire, to dwell therein (for aye). They are the worst of creatures.

"Killing an innocent human life, not a Muslim, not a Jew, not a Christian, A HUMAN LIFE, is like murdering the entire humanity." ---------------

Again, this is not very true. This is gotten from Qur'an 5:32, a verse the Qur'an burrows from the Jewish Tanakh and is not applicable to Muslims . It is the favourite verse of Muslim apologists to prove that Islam is a religion of peace when it is not.

Because of that, We decreed upon the Children of Israel that whoever kills a soul unless for a soul or for corruption [done] in the land - it is as if he had slain mankind entirely. And whoever saves one - it is as if he had saved mankind entirely. And our messengers had certainly come to them with clear proofs. Then indeed many of them, [even] after that, throughout the land, were transgressors.

The next verse is the command for Muslims.

Indeed, the penalty for those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger and strive upon earth [to cause] corruption is none but that they be killed or crucified or that their hands and feet be cut off from opposite sides or that they be exiled from the land. That is for them a disgrace in this world; and for them in the Hereafter is a great punishment

These are the same punishments practiced in Saudi Arabia under Sharia.

"Fight back anyone who attacks you including Christians and Jews. ( National Defense)"

To get back to the gist of your comment, this is completely false and not true. Anyone who has read Hadith Bukhari or Muslim or that has read the biography of Muhammad knows he and the early Muslms killed innocent people. People who mocked him were killed. Asma Bint Marwan for example. People who didn't convert to Islam were killed. Non-Muslims were persecuted and killed. Jews were exiled from Arabia.

Muhammad's words in the Hadith. The context is very clear. It's Hadith afterall:

very cle

Bukhari (52:177)

Allah's Apostle said, "The Hour will not be established until you fight with the Jews, and the stone behind which a Jew will be hiding will say. "O Muslim! There is a Jew hiding behind me, so kill him."

Muslim (1:30)

"The Messenger of Allah said: I have been commanded to fight against people so long as they do not declare that there is no god but Allah."

It's pretty obvious from just a cursory glance at the Muslim sources that most of what you wrote is incorrect. Islam commands it's followers to fight against unbelievers in order to spread Islam. If they are Jews or Christians, they are given option of Jizya under Dhimmitude. Pagans and Atheists are not so lucky. It's convert or die. Anyway, let's continue this conversation elsewhere. PM me.

[MrExcalibur100 7,124]

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