Politics & Stuff

[Stingray 9,441]

It

I wish to criticize your claims. I will begin with something not very relevant but the 'stage 1' photo is simply incorrect. You need to remember that most of the land was nobodys because there was no Palestine or Israeli state. A full majority of the Palestine lived and still living in the WEST BANK and that was their territory.. the same for Israel. Where they lived is where their land was. Stage 1 should not be shown here.

Now I don't really understand what you are trying to say. The situation is much more complex than just (Israel won the war and got the land), The Palestines have chosen WAR in 1947. Now, this might be understandable but absolutely unacceptable. There is no legitimate explanation of why they declined the UN partition aside from arrogance and egoism.. You should not legitimize that. Explain me your points further please. Thank you.

Its hard to debate when having two completely different paradigms. The land was under Mandate of the Volkenbond after a Turkish Reign. The amount of people settling into the country before it was anyones land and before 1920 tells the story about zionism. It was the wish to go back to Zion, a wish the orthodox community then found repellend cause that should be reserved for after the coming of the Messiah. Anyway .... The war later was not about a jewish David against an arab goliath btw. Quite the opposite, despite the arab initiative. But is was however a prerequisite for much more!

I just read this by accident:

http://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/4761896

I have no issue with Jewish people and the Shoah was the most horrible event, but my heart does break by what has happened during decades to the people originally living in those lands. It has become a story of political spinning, oppressies and yes .... Propaganda. Israël has issues claiming the victims position when you take all of its history into account, not just a few recently chosen events.

Thats all. Leo Festinger - i even think he was a jewish psychologist - laid the foundation on peoples strategies to deal with info that 'does not compute' accordeons to the dominant mildset and reigning ideas. Cognitive dissonance theory, read about it plz, my friend.

Just check the Human Rights Watch report:

http://m.hrw.org/reports/2010/12/19/separate-and-unequal-0

Respect to all. That is my wish ...

[Rmpr 8,977]

Isnt it better to agree to disagree?

I dont think you guys will find a middle ground any time soon...

[Stingray 9,441]

Isnt it better to agree to disagree?

I dont think you guys will find a middle ground any time soon...

Tbh, what do you expect from a politicus thread. I do find it is respectfull, so why not give it a chance?

[CHOULO19 24,332]

Isnt it better to agree to disagree?

I dont think you guys will find a middle ground any time soon...

You can agree to disagree about how good a shirt looks, or how good a football player is, but you certainly can't agree to disagree about a war that you are part of!

[Rmpr 8,977]

You can agree to disagree about how good a shirt looks, or how good a football player is, but you certainly can't agree to disagree about a war that you are part of!

Exactly the contrary, there is a war going on and you think you will get anywhere by discussing on a football forum?

It was good 2-3 pages ago, now both sides are just repeating themselves over and over again. It is quite boring to read!

[CHOULO19 24,332]

Exactly the contrary, there is a war going on and you think you will get anywhere by discussing on a football forum?

It was good 2-3 pages ago, now both sides are just repeating themselves over and over again. It is quite boring to read!

You don't get anywhere by discussing anything on a forum, it's kind of a feature of forums!

The discussion has been respectful and mostly rational (except that guy who was trying to turn it into something about religion). If it's boring, don't read it

[CHOULO19 24,332]

I just read this by accident:

http://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/4761896

That's a brilliant article. Hits the nail on the head on several key points:

"In order for colonialism and occupation to be successful, previous inhabitants of a region must be dehumanized, labeled savages, and finally, their very existence denied. Once this paradigm has been established, any and all acts of horror can be inflicted upon them without recourse. Thus, the stories of the oppressed become irrelevant."

"Zionism has convinced many Jews that they are preserving themselves. The common thought is that if the "savage" Palestinians stop resisting, stop shooting rockets, stop fighting Israel's inevitable domination, there can be peace."

[Fulham Broadway 16,386]

That's a brilliant article. Hits the nail on the head on several key points:

"In order for colonialism and occupation to be successful, previous inhabitants of a region must be dehumanized, labeled savages, and finally, their very existence denied. Once this paradigm has been established, any and all acts of horror can be inflicted upon them without recourse. Thus, the stories of the oppressed become irrelevant."

"Zionism has convinced many Jews that they are preserving themselves. The common thought is that if the "savage" Palestinians stop resisting, stop shooting rockets, stop fighting Israel's inevitable domination, there can be peace."

And never under estimate the part of corporate media propaganda to keep spinning their agenda :

''The recent blanket coverage afforded to the brutal killing of three Israeli teenagers highlights this immutable fact. Major broadcasters, such as BBC News, devoted headlines and extended reports to the deaths, and included heart-rending interviews with grieving relatives in Israel. The Guardian ran live coverage of the funerals for more than nine hours. But when has this ever happened for Palestinian victims of Israeli terror??

When has the BBC ever expressed this level of concern for the deaths of Palestinian teenagers? The question matters because consistent empathic bias has the effect of humanising Israelis for the public and dehumanising Palestinians. This is an extremely lethal form of media propaganda with real consequences for human suffering.'' This enforces the labels given above-savages, and generally making Palestinian deaths worth less than Israelis.

http://www.medialens.org/index.php/alerts/alert-archive/2014/770-some-deaths-really-matter-the-disproportionate-coverage-of-israeli-and-palestinian-killings.html

[iseah100 5,612]

[Mohammed Seif 1,451]

That's a brilliant article. Hits the nail on the head on several key points:

"In order for colonialism and occupation to be successful, previous inhabitants of a region must be dehumanized, labeled savages, and finally, their very existence denied. Once this paradigm has been established, any and all acts of horror can be inflicted upon them without recourse. Thus, the stories of the oppressed become irrelevant."

"Zionism has convinced many Jews that they are preserving themselves. The common thought is that if the "savage" Palestinians stop resisting, stop shooting rockets, stop fighting Israel's inevitable domination, there can be peace."

And never under estimate the part of corporate media propaganda to keep spinning their agenda :

''The recent blanket coverage afforded to the brutal killing of three Israeli teenagers highlights this immutable fact. Major broadcasters, such as BBC News, devoted headlines and extended reports to the deaths, and included heart-rending interviews with grieving relatives in Israel. The Guardian ran live coverage of the funerals for more than nine hours. But when has this ever happened for Palestinian victims of Israeli terror??

When has the BBC ever expressed this level of concern for the deaths of Palestinian teenagers? The question matters because consistent empathic bias has the effect of humanising Israelis for the public and dehumanising Palestinians. This is an extremely lethal form of media propaganda with real consequences for human suffering.'' This enforces the labels given above-savages, and generally making Palestinian deaths worth less than Israelis.

http://www.medialens.org/index.php/alerts/alert-archive/2014/770-some-deaths-really-matter-the-disproportionate-coverage-of-israeli-and-palestinian-killings.html

If you check out the U.S media, it is pretty much the same concept. They did the same against the Afganis and Iraqis. Even the returning troops who changed their views from pro war to anti war stated many times that they were dehumanizing them. Even creating their own racist words for them and always referring to them with those words.

[CHOULO19 24,332]

And never under estimate the part of corporate media propaganda to keep spinning their agenda :

''The recent blanket coverage afforded to the brutal killing of three Israeli teenagers highlights this immutable fact. Major broadcasters, such as BBC News, devoted headlines and extended reports to the deaths, and included heart-rending interviews with grieving relatives in Israel. The Guardian ran live coverage of the funerals for more than nine hours. But when has this ever happened for Palestinian victims of Israeli terror??

When has the BBC ever expressed this level of concern for the deaths of Palestinian teenagers? The question matters because consistent empathic bias has the effect of humanising Israelis for the public and dehumanising Palestinians. This is an extremely lethal form of media propaganda with real consequences for human suffering.'' This enforces the labels given above-savages, and generally making Palestinian deaths worth less than Israelis.

http://www.medialens.org/index.php/alerts/alert-archive/2014/770-some-deaths-really-matter-the-disproportionate-coverage-of-israeli-and-palestinian-killings.html

The propaganda has always been their strongest weapon. How many people in the west know the history of Israel and Palestine? Most think that Hamas is the same as Al Qaeda and that the resistance are only some religious extremists when in fact, throughout most of the Arab world, the secular parties were the first to resist and the right wing religious parties were the traitors.

[MrExcalibur100 7,124]

The propaganda has always been their strongest weapon. How many people in the west know the history of Israel and Palestine? Most think that Hamas is the same as Al Qaeda and that the resistance are only some religious extremists when in fact, throughout most of the Arab world, the secular parties were the first to resist and the right wing religious parties were the traitors.

First off, I'm neither Pro-Isreal or Pro-Palestine.

I can say that I do. And are you saying HAMAS is secular? Have you heard of the TV show "Tomorrow's pioneers?" and the mass indoctrination that goes on in Palestine? The more and more you dig into it, the more you realize it has less to do with politics and more to do with religion. That's the bitter pill I had to swallow. The problem is that you speak of propaganda but the reality is that there is a great deal of propaganda from BOTH sides even more so from the Palestinian side. How is it possible to even discuss the issue when there is so much vested interest towards the Palestinians on your part.

Speaking of propaganda, a lot of those pictures circulating twitter are old photos of completely unrelated tragedies.

[MrExcalibur100 7,124]

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ About the pictures.

http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Peace/2014/07/09/More-False-Images-Hamas-Use-on-Social-Media-Against-Israel/

[LDN Blue 7,903]

Exactly the contrary, there is a war going on and you think you will get anywhere by discussing on a football forum?

It was good 2-3 pages ago, now both sides are just repeating themselves over and over again. It is quite boring to read!

Rmpr, that's not fair. this discussion isn't hostile or anything. It might be on a football forum, but that doesn't mean the forum is limited to football. If it's 'boring' then don't read it?

I find this more educational than boring, seeing both point of views without members getting personal.

[EBH 283]

"We know there are less rich than poor. That's the entire basis of capitalism. There's only a finite amount of money in the economy: if you have more of it, that means that others have less."

lol

[haranr 485]

No, I'm saying it is VERY clear to anyone who sees that who is the oppressor between the two sides and who is terrorizing who. In fact, just by looking at the types of weapons, any sane person can deduce who the criminals are and who are the people trying to defend what little remains from their basic rights for life with what little they have.

I've said before, I do not wish to discuss this with you, so don't quote me again, please.

That is false.

[Fulham Broadway 16,386]

One side allegedly has ;

Antiquated Antiaircraft Missiles and Rockets

Kalashnikov Guns & Stones

Another gets stuff supplied from the US :

Small arms

Dror light machine gun

IMI Negev light machine gun

Uzi submachine gun

Uzi pistol

Desert Eagle pistol

Jericho 941 pistol

BUL M-5 pistol

BUL Storm pistol

SP-21 Barak pistol

IMI Galil assault rifle

IMI Tavor assault rifle

M89SR sniper rifle

Hezi SM-1 semi-automatic PDW

Anti-tank rockets and missiles

MATADOR Shoulder-launched missile weapon

B-300 Shoulder-launched missile weapon

Shoulder-Launched Multipurpose Assault Weapon

Shipon Shoulder-launched missile weapon

FGM-172 SRAW

MAPATS ATGM

Spike ATGM

LAHAT ATGM

Nimrod ATGM

Other missiles

Guided Advanced Tactical Rocket - Laser

Shafrir air-to-air missile

Derby air-to-air missile

Python air-to-air missile

Gabriel naval anti-ship missile

ADM-141 TALD

Popeye AGM-142 air-to-surface missile

Delilah cruise missile / anti-radiation missile

LORA theater ballistic missile

Jericho medium-range ballistic missile

Aircraft

IAI Arava cargo aircraft

IAI Sea Scan surveillance aircraft

IAI Nesher fighter aircraft

IAI Kfir fighter aircraft

IAI Namer fighter aircraft

IAI Lavi fighter aircraft

ATG Javelin jet trainer aircraft

Watercraft

Shaldag class fast patrol boat

Dabur class patrol boat

Dvora class fast patrol boat

Super Dvora Mk II class fast patrol boat

Super Dvora Mk III class fast patrol boat

Sa'ar 3-class missile boat

Sa'ar 4-class missile boat

Sa'ar 4.5-class missile boat

Sa'ar 5-class corvette

Gal class submarine

Dolphin class submarine

Spaceflight

Shavit spaceflight launch vehicle

EROS earth observation satellite

Ofeq reconnaissance satellite

TecSAR reconnaissance satellite

Weapon stations

CornerShot SWAT weapon

Rafael Overhead Weapon Station

Samson Remote Controlled Weapon Station

Typhoon Weapon System

Active protection systems

Trophy active protection system

Iron Fist active protection system

Flight Guard airborne IR countermeasures system

Radars

EL/M-2032 fire-control radar

EL/M-2052 AESA radar

EL/M-2075 Phalcon AEW&C radar

EL/M-2080 Green Pine target tracking radar

EL/M-2083 AEW&C radar

Optronics

ITL MARS reflex sight

LITENING targeting pod

Spice EO-GPS PGM guidance kit

Skystar 300 ISR system

Tanks

Isherman tank

Sho't tank

Magach tank

Sabra tank

Merkava tank

Fighting vehicles

M113 variants

Nimda Shoet APC

Trail Blazer ARV

IDF Nagmachon APC

IDF Nakpadon CEV

IDF Puma CEV

IDF Achzarit APC

IDF Namer IFV

Nemmera ARV

AIL Abir

AIL Storm

Plasan Sand Cat

Wolf Armoured Vehicle

Golan Armored Vehicle

Artillery

Davidka mortar

Soltam M-66 mortar

Soltam M-68 howitzer

Soltam M-71 howitzer

Soltam M-120 mortar

L-33/39 Ro'em self-propelled howitzer

Makmat self-propelled mortar

MAR-240/290 rocket artillery launcher

LAR-160 rocket artillery launcher

LAROM rocket artillery launcher

Cardom mortar

Rascal self-propelled howitzer

ATMOS 2000 self-propelled howitzer

Sholef self-propelled howitzer

Unmanned aerial vehicles

Tadiran Mastiff UAV

Casper 250 UAV

Silver Arrow Micro-V UAV

Silver Arrow Sniper UAV

IAI Scout UAV

IAI Searcher UAV

IAI Harpy UAV

IAI Harop UAV

IAI Bird-Eye UAV

IAI I-View UAV

IAI Ranger UAV

IAI Heron UAV

IAI Eitan UAV

IAI Panther UAV

IAI RQ-2 Pioneer UAV

IAI RQ-5 Hunter UAV

Elbit Skylark UAV

Elbit Hermes 90 UAV

Elbit Hermes 450 UAV

Elbit Hermes 900 UAV

Aeronautics Dominator UAV

Aeronautics Orbiter UAV

Urban Aeronautics X-Hawk UAV

Unmanned surface vehicles

VIPeR UGCV

Protector USV

Guardium UGV

Raam HaShachar unmanned Caterpillar D9 armored bulldozer

Air-defense systems

Machbet self-propelled anti-aircraft weapon

Barak 1 naval surface-to-air missile

Barak 8 naval surface-to-air missile

SPYDER air-defense system

Arrow anti-ballistic missile

Tactical High Energy Laser

Iron Dome short-range rocket defense system

David's Sling medium-range rocket defense system

Miscellaneous

Mitznefet helmet camouflage

Tomcar all-terrain vehicle

MG251/253 smoothbore tank gun

Kilshon anti-radiation missile launcher

IDF Caterpillar D9 armored bulldozer

Skunk riot control agent

Scream riot control agent

SIMON breach grenade

Enhanced Tactical Computer

Nuclear Weapons

[Stingray 9,441]

One side allegedly has ;

Antiquated Antiaircraft Missiles and Rockets

Kalashnikov Guns & Stones

Another gets stuff supplied from the US :

Small arms

Dror light machine gun

IMI Negev light machine gun

Uzi submachine gun

Uzi pistol

Desert Eagle pistol

Jericho 941 pistol

BUL M-5 pistol

BUL Storm pistol

SP-21 Barak pistol

IMI Galil assault rifle

IMI Tavor assault rifle

M89SR sniper rifle

Hezi SM-1 semi-automatic PDW

Anti-tank rockets and missiles

MATADOR Shoulder-launched missile weapon

B-300 Shoulder-launched missile weapon

Shoulder-Launched Multipurpose Assault Weapon

Shipon Shoulder-launched missile weapon

FGM-172 SRAW

MAPATS ATGM

Spike ATGM

LAHAT ATGM

Nimrod ATGM

Other missiles

Guided Advanced Tactical Rocket - Laser

Shafrir air-to-air missile

Derby air-to-air missile

Python air-to-air missile

Gabriel naval anti-ship missile

ADM-141 TALD

Popeye AGM-142 air-to-surface missile

Delilah cruise missile / anti-radiation missile

LORA theater ballistic missile

Jericho medium-range ballistic missile

Aircraft

IAI Arava cargo aircraft

IAI Sea Scan surveillance aircraft

IAI Nesher fighter aircraft

IAI Kfir fighter aircraft

IAI Namer fighter aircraft

IAI Lavi fighter aircraft

ATG Javelin jet trainer aircraft

Watercraft

Shaldag class fast patrol boat

Dabur class patrol boat

Dvora class fast patrol boat

Super Dvora Mk II class fast patrol boat

Super Dvora Mk III class fast patrol boat

Sa'ar 3-class missile boat

Sa'ar 4-class missile boat

Sa'ar 4.5-class missile boat

Sa'ar 5-class corvette

Gal class submarine

Dolphin class submarine

Spaceflight

Shavit spaceflight launch vehicle

EROS earth observation satellite

Ofeq reconnaissance satellite

TecSAR reconnaissance satellite

Weapon stations

CornerShot SWAT weapon

Rafael Overhead Weapon Station

Samson Remote Controlled Weapon Station

Typhoon Weapon System

Active protection systems

Trophy active protection system

Iron Fist active protection system

Flight Guard airborne IR countermeasures system

Radars

EL/M-2032 fire-control radar

EL/M-2052 AESA radar

EL/M-2075 Phalcon AEW&C radar

EL/M-2080 Green Pine target tracking radar

EL/M-2083 AEW&C radar

Optronics

ITL MARS reflex sight

LITENING targeting pod

Spice EO-GPS PGM guidance kit

Skystar 300 ISR system

Tanks

Isherman tank

Sho't tank

Magach tank

Sabra tank

Merkava tank

Fighting vehicles

M113 variants

Nimda Shoet APC

Trail Blazer ARV

IDF Nagmachon APC

IDF Nakpadon CEV

IDF Puma CEV

IDF Achzarit APC

IDF Namer IFV

Nemmera ARV

AIL Abir

AIL Storm

Plasan Sand Cat

Wolf Armoured Vehicle

Golan Armored Vehicle

Artillery

Davidka mortar

Soltam M-66 mortar

Soltam M-68 howitzer

Soltam M-71 howitzer

Soltam M-120 mortar

L-33/39 Ro'em self-propelled howitzer

Makmat self-propelled mortar

MAR-240/290 rocket artillery launcher

LAR-160 rocket artillery launcher

LAROM rocket artillery launcher

Cardom mortar

Rascal self-propelled howitzer

ATMOS 2000 self-propelled howitzer

Sholef self-propelled howitzer

Unmanned aerial vehicles

Tadiran Mastiff UAV

Casper 250 UAV

Silver Arrow Micro-V UAV

Silver Arrow Sniper UAV

IAI Scout UAV

IAI Searcher UAV

IAI Harpy UAV

IAI Harop UAV

IAI Bird-Eye UAV

IAI I-View UAV

IAI Ranger UAV

IAI Heron UAV

IAI Eitan UAV

IAI Panther UAV

IAI RQ-2 Pioneer UAV

IAI RQ-5 Hunter UAV

Elbit Skylark UAV

Elbit Hermes 90 UAV

Elbit Hermes 450 UAV

Elbit Hermes 900 UAV

Aeronautics Dominator UAV

Aeronautics Orbiter UAV

Urban Aeronautics X-Hawk UAV

Unmanned surface vehicles

VIPeR UGCV

Protector USV

Guardium UGV

Raam HaShachar unmanned Caterpillar D9 armored bulldozer

Air-defense systems

Machbet self-propelled anti-aircraft weapon

Barak 1 naval surface-to-air missile

Barak 8 naval surface-to-air missile

SPYDER air-defense system

Arrow anti-ballistic missile

Tactical High Energy Laser

Iron Dome short-range rocket defense system

David's Sling medium-range rocket defense system

Miscellaneous

Mitznefet helmet camouflage

Tomcar all-terrain vehicle

MG251/253 smoothbore tank gun

Kilshon anti-radiation missile launcher

IDF Caterpillar D9 armored bulldozer

Skunk riot control agent

Scream riot control agent

SIMON breach grenade

Enhanced Tactical Computer

Nuclear Weapons

Woopsie ...