Politics & Stuff

[the wes 7,212]

4 hours ago, Special Juan said:

 

Right now I am a broken man, totally and utterly distraught.

I feel your pain mate I grow in an area bombing was regular thing thank God it doesn't happen in Northern Ireland anymore my heat goes out to the families who lost their  love ones

[Spike 12,049]

Humans are naturally tribalistic and to expect anyone to feel the same emotions  as an Englishmen, or a Lancasterian, or Manc, and finally those directly affected by the tragedy is naive. Just like a person weeps more for their family as opposed to a stranger, people feel tragedies of their countrymen more than anyone else. I doubt the English on here would feel the same emotions for an incident in Belarus and vice versa.

Just read the last few posts, only the English are truly distraught all the others while us foreigners empathise we cannot and shouldn't be expected to feel the same weight.

[positivefootball 195]

Deportations when?

[11Drogba 2,000]

After 8 years of Obama administration it is no surprise that there so many terror attacks in the world.

"Busting terrorist charities here in the United States was a low priority for the last eight years under Barack Obama."

"The eight-year lapse was confirmed in an official report issued in December 2016 by the Financial Action Task Force, an international body dedicated to promoting policies to combat money laundering and terrorism finance."

"The U.S. has not designated a domestic U.S.-based charity since … 2009," the report said. Issued in coordination with the U.S. government, the report noted that the "decrease is consistent with the growing trend of fundraising under false pretenses and outside of any charitable organization."

"But it's hard to understand how our international partners will take us seriously if this glaring gap remains. Indeed, why should they feel compelled to crack down on their terrorist finance problems if we don't address our own? "

From http://www.weeklystandard.com/restarting-the-fight-against-terror-funding-charities/article/2007327

He failed in Syria which led to ISIS, closed CIA's black sites in the world and he did not go after terror finance. This is how we got where we are.

[Iggy Doonican 4,186]

14 hours ago, Spike said:

Humans are naturally tribalistic and to expect anyone to feel the same emotions  as an Englishmen, or a Lancasterian, or Manc, and finally those directly affected by the tragedy is naive. Just like a person weeps more for their family as opposed to a stranger, people feel tragedies of their countrymen more than anyone else. I doubt the English on here would feel the same emotions for an incident in Belarus and vice versa.

Just read the last few posts, only the English are truly distraught all the others while us foreigners empathise we cannot and shouldn't be expected to feel the same weight.

You make some some good and valid points Spike but after something as atrocious all that Manpe geezer had to say was I'm sorry what happened and left it at that. To comment further so soon with comments like '' It's become so common it brings out no noteworthy emotions in me'' is Katie Hopkins like (Google her). It's insensitive to say the least and unnecessary if he put that on Twitter he would have got a lot worse than what I said. When Victoria Wood died she was massively loved in Britain I think it was Piers Morgan who said '' I'm sorry she died but I was never a fan'' a woman died just say your sorry you don't need to critique her career. Anyway Manpe has apologised so we'll leave it there and let's concentrate on football and clinching the double against those Arsenal pricks.

[manpe 10,861]

27 minutes ago, Iggy Doonican said:

You make some some good and valid points Spike but after something as atrocious all that Manpe geezer had to say was I'm sorry what happened and left it at that. To comment further so soon with comments like '' It's become so common it brings out no noteworthy emotions in me'' is Katie Hopkins like (Google her). It's insensitive to say the least and unnecessary if he put that on Twitter he would have got a lot worse than what I said. When Victoria Wood died she was massively loved in Britain I think it was Piers Morgan who said '' I'm sorry she died but I was never a fan'' a woman died just say your sorry you don't need to critique her career. Anyway Manpe has apologised so we'll leave it there and let's concentrate on football and clinching the double against those Arsenal pricks.

Yeah, what I meant was that this news didn't "shock" me like it would have 5-7 years ago when it would have been an isolated case in Europe. I'm still disgusted thinking about those incidents, I want to meet those self-proclaimed jihadists myself and torture them beyond the limits of my imagination. All I tried to say was when something becomes common, people become used to it (in other words desensitized), and it is a sad representation of the state of our world when you expect things like this to happen every day. As it didn't happen here I'm not as emotionally invested in it as the Englishmen over here and I obviously should have expressed my point differently as shown by your reaction. Excuse my poor timing and choice of words mate. I am also very sorry for those affected directly or indirectly by this event.

[Fulham Broadway 17,333]

4 hours ago, manpe said:

Yeah, what I meant was that this news didn't "shock" me like it would have 5-7 years ago when it would have been an isolated case in Europe. I'm still disgusted thinking about those incidents, I want to meet those self-proclaimed jihadists myself and torture them beyond the limits of my imagination. All I tried to say was when something becomes common, people become used to it (in other words desensitized), and it is a sad representation of the state of our world when you expect things like this to happen every day. As it didn't happen here I'm not as emotionally invested in it as the Englishmen over here and I obviously should have expressed my point differently as shown by your reaction. Excuse my poor timing and choice of words mate. I am also very sorry for those affected directly or indirectly by this event.

Think you're right Manpe. People are getting desensitised to the attacks- I mean its 10 years since 7/7 London bombings and after every attack it's the same mantra ''they wont divide us'', candlelit vigils, ''hope not hate'' etc. Then a few months down the line another atrocity. Rinse, repeat.

To me, there needs to be a pro active stance in rooting out the wankers that tell these disaffected Muslim youth that they can atone for their weed smoking, alcohol and 'western ways' by blowing apart a load of Kuffirs and have eternal paradise. Fucking mental cult.

[nachikethas 1,154]

I hope none of your relatives or friends are affected in the blast.Those pictures looked devastating.

[manpe 10,861]

4 hours ago, Fulham Broadway said:

To me, there needs to be a pro active stance in rooting out the wankers [...]

I think there already is. The problem is that there are too many of them, many of whom people don't realize to suspect. Like the Manchester bomber, people who knew him said he was the last person they expected to do something like this. This also applies to many serial killers - they don't bark before biting. The reality is that there are too many of such people, it's simply impossible for intelligence agencies to root out every single one of them, and it takes only one to cause major disaster. I'm sure many atrocities have been prevented too, but we only see and hear about those that took place. I fear there is no solution other than complete segregation and division of people without access to each other, which you cannot imagine in a "free world". Responsibility lies with the people who started poking the Middle East and African nations out of greed, causing grief and destruction, which in turn resulted in vengeful hatred fueled by religious cultism. And those western leaders who forced uncontrolled mass immigration onto their own soil and into their own peoples' homes. It is no coincidence that terror acts in Europe have skyrocketed during the immigration crisis, common people feared that it would happen from the start, but did the decision-makers listen? Fuck no, it was lucrative business for somebody somewhere. They share the blood on their hands with terrorists.

[Spike 12,049]

4 hours ago, Fulham Broadway said:

Think you're right Manpe. People are getting desensitised to the attacks- I mean its 10 years since 7/7 London bombings and after every attack it's the same mantra ''they wont divide us'', candlelit vigils, ''hope not hate'' etc. Then a few months down the line another atrocity. Rinse, repeat.

To me, there needs to be a pro active stance in rooting out the wankers that tell these disaffected Muslim youth that they can atone for their weed smoking, alcohol and 'western ways' by blowing apart a load of Kuffirs and have eternal paradise. Fucking mental cult.

Perhaps more investigations and harsher regulations on Mosques is necessary? He may be a hated fellow for a lot of reasons especially for his EDL days (let's not debate about those) but Tommy Robinson does raise some interesting points about the mosques in Luton town. I remember him writing about a child abuse ring in some of the mosques being kept hidden as 'Luton's dirty little secret'. I don't know if it was true but given other religions (Hasidic Jews in Israel and New York, and Catholic priests) fondness for young children, I simply wouldn't even be surprised. Though it could be 'considered' an invasion of privacy and an abuse of religious freedom, wouldn't it be beneficial to at least make sure that certain mosques and communities aren't aiding people's treks into the middle-east and Africa to be trained into terrorist splinter cells? Wouldn't that be killing the trouble at the source? Most of the issues seem to be homegrown.

[the wes 7,212]

39 minutes ago, manpe said:

I think there already is. The problem is that there are too many of them, many of whom people don't realize to suspect. Like the Manchester bomber, people who knew him said he was the last person they expected to do something like this. This also applies to many serial killers - they don't bark before biting. The reality is that there are too many of such people, it's simply impossible for intelligence agencies to root out every single one of them, and it takes only one to cause major disaster. I'm sure many atrocities have been prevented too, but we only see and hear about those that took place. I fear there is no solution other than complete segregation and division of people without access to each other, which you cannot imagine in a "free world". Responsibility lies with the people who started poking the Middle East and African nations out of greed, causing grief and destruction, which in turn resulted in vengeful hatred fueled by religious cultism. And those western leaders who forced uncontrolled mass immigration onto their own soil and into their own peoples' homes. It is no coincidence that terror acts in Europe have skyrocketed during the immigration crisis, common people feared that it would happen from the start, but did the decision-makers listen? Fuck no, it was lucrative business for somebody somewhere. They share the blood on their hands with terrorists.

I feel some Muslim community's need to do more they need to inform the police which ones are being brainwashed into doing evil things I feel sorry for the Muslims community's because there's alot of good Muslim people out there 

[Fulham Broadway 17,333]

21 minutes ago, Spike said:

wouldn't it be beneficial to at least make sure that certain mosques and communities aren't aiding people's treks into the middle-east and Africa to be trained into terrorist splinter cells? Wouldn't that be killing the trouble at the source? Most of the issues seem to be homegrown.

Yeah I think (well we're told so) the authorities are doing covert work on this - but maybe @Manpe has a point, theres just too many to keep an eye on. The other radicalisation factor is that you can watch Arab videos online of atrocities by Assad, Russia , the US, UK etc whereby there are uncensored mutilations and killings of Muslim children by US and UK bombings. Stuff that we don't watch, but can turn a disaffected young Muslims head. So a root cause is the Western adventures in Iraq, Afghanistan, etc which also needs to be addressed ...cue @Choulo19.....

[CHOULO19 24,332]

Been shocked to the core since reading the news yesterday morning. This was so barbaric and senseless and random and pointless. Particularly that the victims were mostly kids trying to have a good time. I couldn't help but cry when reading about that innocent 8-year-old and what her teacher had to say about her. It's just beyond evil.

I am genuinely not saying this to disagree with manpe and Spike about how foreigners vs Englishmen must feel about this, and I certainly am not claiming that I am nearly as emotionally affected by this as anyone in Manchester. But maybe it's because I'm from somewhere where these kind of atrocities have happened (too) many times in my lifetime. I know what it's like.

I know the feelings of shock and in ability to move and think when you hear the bang. I know the desperation when you scramble to call all your friends and loved ones to make sure they are okay, only to find that the lines are down because everyone else is scrambling to do the same. And I know the utter and sheer helplessness you feel when you sit in front of the TV watching the tragedy unfold. 

My heart goes out to, not only the families and friends of all the victims and wounded, but for everyone in Manchester. I feel for them, deeply. 

[Fernando 6,585]

15 hours ago, 11Drogba said:

After 8 years of Obama administration it is no surprise that there so many terror attacks in the world.

"Busting terrorist charities here in the United States was a low priority for the last eight years under Barack Obama."

"The eight-year lapse was confirmed in an official report issued in December 2016 by the Financial Action Task Force, an international body dedicated to promoting policies to combat money laundering and terrorism finance."

"The U.S. has not designated a domestic U.S.-based charity since … 2009," the report said. Issued in coordination with the U.S. government, the report noted that the "decrease is consistent with the growing trend of fundraising under false pretenses and outside of any charitable organization."

"But it's hard to understand how our international partners will take us seriously if this glaring gap remains. Indeed, why should they feel compelled to crack down on their terrorist finance problems if we don't address our own? "

From http://www.weeklystandard.com/restarting-the-fight-against-terror-funding-charities/article/2007327

He failed in Syria which led to ISIS, closed CIA's black sites in the world and he did not go after terror finance. This is how we got where we are.

Because he was Muslim. 

Everything he did was to help the cause of Muslim. 

But oh well what's done is done. Now this a problem that will only get worse. 

[11Drogba 2,000]

1 hour ago, Fulham Broadway said:

 So a root cause is the Western adventures in Iraq, Afghanistan, etc which also needs to be addressed ...cue @Choulo19.....

This is true but simply leaving those places now creates an opportunity for groups like Isis and those videos you mentioned will be on internet forever.

Also another root cause that is ignored and tolerated by Western leaders is the Saudi royal family which keep an entire nation in stone age and spreads radical Islam all over the world. For example http://www.balkanspost.com/article/116/saudi-arabia-funds-spread-of-wahhabism-in-kosovo

I am not saying Saudi Arabia should be bombed. The opposite. Progressive policies and leaders in ME should be supported. What is happening is just opposite of that. Erdogan's only ally in Europe is your prime minister right now and money has been pouring from London to their stock market since her visit in January.

It is sad how the military industry is playing both sides, using politicians like puppets and taking advantage of terror attacks like this. The money that could be spent on education, healthcare and infrastructure will be spent for defense now. This has been the effect of such terror attacks and nothing is solved.

 

 

[Fernando 6,585]

2 minutes ago, 11Drogba said:

This is true but simply leaving those places now creates an opportunity for groups like Isis and those videos you mentioned will be on internet forever.

Also another root cause that is ignored and tolerated by Western leaders is the Saudi royal family which keep an entire nation in stone age and spreads radical Islam all over the world. For example http://www.balkanspost.com/article/116/saudi-arabia-funds-spread-of-wahhabism-in-kosovo

I am not saying Saudi Arabia should be bombed. The opposite. Progressive policies and leaders in ME should be supported. What is happening is just opposite of that. Erdogan's only ally in Europe is your prime minister right now and money has been pouring from London to their stock market since her visit in January.

It is sad how the military industry is playing both sides, using politicians like puppets and taking advantage of terror attacks like this. The money that could be spent on education, healthcare and infrastructure will spent for defense now. This has been the effect of such terror attacks and nothing is solved.

 

 

 

Saudia Arabia has been one of the great problems for this, but money talks. 

In this world of greed where money is there god, money will always buy you out. 

[CHOULO19 24,332]

7 minutes ago, Fulham Broadway said:

Yeah I think (well we're told so) the authorities are doing covert work on this - but maybe @Manpe has a point, theres just too many to keep an eye on. The other radicalisation factor is that you can watch Arab videos online of atrocities by Assad, Russia , the US, UK etc whereby there are uncensored mutilations and killings of Muslim children by US and UK bombings. Stuff that we don't watch, but can turn a disaffected young Muslims head. So a root cause is the Western adventures in Iraq, Afghanistan, etc which also needs to be addressed ...cue @Choulo19.....

A lot of people from all over the spectrum tend to view terrorism issues as having A solution. But reality is inevitably much more complex. 

There isn't one line of action that can make this stop nor is there anything that can halt terrorist acts in the short term. People don't want to hear this, but no matter what we do now, there will be more attacks like this in Europe and certainly in the middle east. Instead, the problem needs to be tackled systematically, long-term and on various fronts. Yes, covert work to try to stop individuals before they carry out these actions is important (though, historically incredibly unsuccessful) as are background checks...etc. but ultimately they are futile unless there is a genuine desire to address the root causes of terrorism which there isn't right now because otherwise you are only treating symptoms and not causes. 

And there can be a lot of valid discussion about what influences terrorism more, but in the case of the UK and it's western allies, the first and most obvious step to stopping terrorism is, as Chomsky says, to stop participating in it. And I hope no one misunderstands me. This has nothing to do with the British public, but rather the successive UK governments. The most logical thing to do is to stop committing terrorism in third-world countries. The second step would be to stop spreading terrorism either by sledge-hammer approach that creates vacuums and failed states to be filled by terrorist groups or by directly arming and funding those terrorist groups to use them for geopolitical gains. And third obvious step would be to stop strengthening the core ideology of terrorist groups by arming and protecting the tyrants of KSA and Qatar and the gulf states which are the beating heart of Sunni extremism around the world and the source of its ideology: Wahabism.

All this is not at all to say that terrorism can all be blamed on the west and that no one in the middle east has any responsibilities. But obviously, if we are to solve this global problem, we all need to tackle the causes that we are responsible for. Here in the middle east we need, first of all, to change our oppressive governments and regimes that breed extremism, we need to root out and stop the funding the radical clerks who spread those ideas, we need to stop using sectarianism to score cheap political points and we need religious leaders to more vehemently disavow those interpretations of Islam.

Once we all take those obvious starting steps then we can seriously discuss what else needs to be done and where the priorities lie. But at the moment, there is no genuine clear will to eradicate the causes of terrorism, neither here nor in the west. 

[Spike 12,049]

Eradicating terrorism is like eradicating any crime. It's not feasible without some sort of science-fiction level 'thought crime' technology.

[Spike 12,049]

Quote

Celebrating my birthday in Manchester as news of the Manchester Arena bomb broke. The anger is monumental. 
 For what reason will this ever stop?

Theresa May says such attacks "will not break us", but her own life is lived in a bullet-proof bubble, and she evidently does not need to identify any young people today in Manchester morgues. Also, "will not break us" means that the tragedy will not break her, or her policies on immigration. The young people of Manchester are already broken - thanks all the same, Theresa. Sadiq Khan says "London is united with Manchester", but he does not condemn Islamic State - who have claimed responsibility for the bomb. The Queen receives absurd praise for her 'strong words' against the attack, yet she does not cancel today's garden party at Buckingham Palace - for which no criticism is allowed in the Britain of free press. Manchester mayor Andy Burnham says the attack is the work of an "extremist". An extreme what? An extreme rabbit?
In modern Britain everyone seems petrified to officially say what we all say in private. Politicians tell us they are unafraid, but they are never the victims. How easy to be unafraid when one is protected from the line of fire. The people have no such protections.

Morrissey
23 May 2017.

 

[Fulham Broadway 17,333]

1 hour ago, 11Drogba said:

This is true but simply leaving those places now creates an opportunity for groups like Isis and those videos you mentioned will be on internet forever.

Also another root cause that is ignored and tolerated by Western leaders is the Saudi royal family which keep an entire nation in stone age and spreads radical Islam all over the world. For example http://www.balkanspost.com/article/116/saudi-arabia-funds-spread-of-wahhabism-in-kosovo

I am not saying Saudi Arabia should be bombed. The opposite. Progressive policies and leaders in ME should be supported. What is happening is just opposite of that. Erdogan's only ally in Europe is your prime minister right now and money has been pouring from London to their stock market since her visit in January.

It is sad how the military industry is playing both sides, using politicians like puppets and taking advantage of terror attacks like this. The money that could be spent on education, healthcare and infrastructure will be spent for defense now. This has been the effect of such terror attacks and nothing is solved.

 

 

This is true, and lets not forget the House of Saud is despised by hundreds of millions of Muslims, as they are seen as not representing Islam, are Western stooges, corrupt and (conveniently forgotten by Trump and the UK administrations) as supplying 15 of the 19 9/11 attackers