🏴󠁧󠁢󠁥󠁮󠁧󠁿 Frank Lampard

[Jase 43,479]

On 7/6/2020 at 8:25 AM, NikkiCFC said:

Dont know if this is telling something about Frank but Derby is having a strong finish of the season now. 

7th place now, 3 points away from 6th place and play off spot where they finished last season with Frank.

Not to mention that this year squad is nowhere near in terms of quality from last season. They lost Mount, Tomori, Wilson and many others...

Since you posted that, Derby have lost 3 games in a row and look set to miss out on the play-offs - 6 points behind 6th and with a worse goal difference. 

[NikkiCFC 8,319]

6 minutes ago, Jason said:

Since you posted that, Derby have lost 3 games in a row and look set to miss out on the play-offs - 6 points behind 6th and with a worse goal difference. 

Yes, saw that. I was hoping Swansea will get play off to watch Gallagher but not happening.

Nice to see Leeds back in the PL. Brentford can go over WBA...

But than again if we are after Benrahma to replace Willian it is better for us if they dont get promotion.

[Tomo 21,751]

Shows how narrow the small margins are in football, Krul doesn't show up last night and we're raving over a "fantastic response to Sheffield" instead of an "unconvincing win".

Like when a team gets a 'battling draw' down to opposition's wastefulness they get praised for their bravery and commitment, few weeks later they put a similar type of performance in only this time the opposition have their shooting boots on they're being slated for being cowardly and gutless even though the two performances in terms of their output were pretty much the same.

[Jase 43,479]

7 minutes ago, Tomo said:

Shows how narrow the small margins are in football, Krul doesn't show up last night and we're raving over a "fantastic response to Sheffield" instead of an "unconvincing win".

Like when a team gets a 'battling draw' down to opposition's wastefulness they get praised for their bravery and commitment, few weeks later they put a similar type of performance in only this time the opposition have their shooting boots on they're being slated for being cowardly and gutless even though the two performances in terms of their output were pretty much the same.

Did Krul even make a lot of stunning saves? Apart from that Pulisic shot in the first half, all the other saves he had to make was pretty normal and what you would expect from a keeper, as far as I remember.

I don't know why you are here blowing your trumpet over this. Yes, we created chances and didn't put them away except for one but it's Norwich, they have the worst defence in the league. That aside, our overall play was slow, pedestrian and even predictable. Even Lampard admitted it after the match.

[Tomo 21,751]

46 minutes ago, Jason said:

Did Krul even make a lot of stunning saves? Apart from that Pulisic shot in the first half, all the other saves he had to make was pretty normal and what you would expect from a keeper, as far as I remember.

I don't know why you are here blowing your trumpet over this. Yes, we created chances and didn't put them away except for one but it's Norwich, they have the worst defence in the league. That aside, our overall play was slow, pedestrian and even predictable. Even Lampard admitted it after the match.

Lets put this another way, we lose 1-0 to Liverpool next week, create absolutely nothing and Kepa/the bar/Liverpool's wastefulness is the only reason it wasn't more, would you be praising us for making it difficult for them? I think we both know the answer to that.

[Atomiswave 6,117]

It was a snoozefest last night....a drag but 3pts all that matters. But must admit I expected us to be more up for it. Play anything like that for the remainder and it looks bleak.

[Jase 43,479]

6 minutes ago, Tomo said:

Lets put this another way, we lose 1-0 to Liverpool next week, create absolutely nothing and Kepa/the bar/Liverpool's wastefulness is the only reason it wasn't more, would you be praising us for making it difficult for them? I think we both know the answer to that.

But the problem yesterday wasn't really about creating chances...  

[DDA 9,938]

I'm not even judging Frank until he has new players and a second season as the gaffer

But

Was the beginning of the seasons electrifying football the fallout of a second seasons Sarriball, or was it Franks football??

I'm starting to wonder.

[Atomiswave 6,117]

15 minutes ago, DDA said:

I'm not even judging Frank until he has new players and a second season as the gaffer

But

Was the beginning of the seasons electrifying football the fallout of a second seasons Sarriball, or was it Franks football??

I'm starting to wonder.

It was Frankie footy but along the way we totally lost that formula most of the time, chopping and changing does not help, I hope we see none of that next season.

[NikkiCFC 8,319]

But even with this group of players we are capable of having good defensive games.

Last 10 games for example:

5 clean sheets. Liverpool, Everton, Leicester, Watford, Norwich.

2 games where we only conceded after set pieces. City and Aston Villa.

And three very bad defensive games: West Ham, Palace and SU.

One leader and top CB would do wonders for us.

This is much more essential than Kepa imo.

In this 10 games worst Kepa moments were first West Ham goal after corner and Zaha goal. And for both goals we have at least two players more responsible.

Yes, I would replace him with Oblak or Turkish guy but if we have to choose world class CB is much more important.

[Vesper 30,175]

Listening to Chelsea is a reminder that this promising team needs leaders

https://theathletic.com/1929401/2020/07/15/chelsea-lampard-norwich-azpilicueta-kepa-jorginho

Frank Lampard set his Chelsea players a challenge against Norwich that went beyond moving three points closer to Champions League qualification.

“You can be as quiet as you want off the pitch – we have some quiet players who keep themselves to themselves – but they must come out of that on the pitch,” he insisted on Monday. “They must demand the ball, otherwise the game can pass you by. They must have character to talk to people around them.”

When the response came later in the day, it wasn’t accompanied by pointing fingers and bellowing lungs. It wasn’t even on the pitch, but rather in the Stamford Bridge tunnel immediately prior to kick-off.

As they waited to walk out, Christian Pulisic and Olivier Giroud were deep in tactical conversation, illustrating their points with arcing arm gestures that closely resembled the cross and header between them that would break Norwich’s stubborn resistance with the final act of the first half.

The exchange was captured by Chelsea’s in-house media team, who later posted it on their social channels with a winking emoji and the words: “It was all part of the brief!”

It wasn’t quite the ostentatious display of character Lampard is demanding from his team, but it looks increasingly like the form of personality he will have to accept from this group of players. There was no collective raising of the volume on the pitch against Norwich in response to their head coach’s words, only more low-key tactical conversations like the one shared by Giroud and Pulisic.

This, as Lampard himself admitted on Monday, is a team to whom screaming and shouting does not come naturally; they are closer in character to the late-Arsene Wenger era Arsenal crop that Graeme Souness so brutally described in 2015 as “a team of son-in-laws” than the dominant, powerful Chelsea sides that form the basis of Lampard’s legacy at Stamford Bridge.

Even club captain Cesar Azpilicueta is an immaculate ambassador for Chelsea precisely because he is so nice. He primarily leads by consistently solid example, his rare on-pitch pep talks generally consisting of a few sharp claps and a “Come on, guys!” He made a point of going up to every other Chelsea player before kick-off last night to offer a high-five and some words of encouragement.

So too did Jorginho, his vice-captain, who is required to take a greater share of responsibility by virtue of his position at the base of midfield, if nothing else. He could be heard directing his defenders on where to pass, as well as coordinating Chelsea’s press by urging Pulisic, Giroud and Willian whenever it was their turn to harass Norwich defenders.

But if playing in an empty Stamford Bridge has taught us anything new about the Chelsea that Lampard has inherited, it’s that Kepa Arrizabalaga is the most vocal player at the club.

That in itself isn’t hugely unusual; the stereotype of the permanently irate goalkeeper relentlessly berating his defenders – Peter Schmeichel always comes to mind – is well established in English football. Kepa did all the standard things against Norwich, instructing his back four when to drop and when to push up and alerting them to unmarked opposition runners (he often did so in his native Spanish to countrymen Azpilicueta and Marcos Alonso, using words like “abierto!” (open) and “arriba!” (up).

He did more than that, though, even pointing out to Chelsea’s midfielders when there was an opportunity to switch the play to the opposite flank, and shouting at the far away front three to press high whenever Norwich moved the ball into their zone of influence. This is logical, because a goalkeeper can see the whole pitch at all times, but also a little surprising because their role is so different to any other position in the team that they are almost playing a different sport.

It is jarring to try to reconcile the frequency and assertiveness of Kepa’s instructions to those in front of him on the pitch with the uncertainty over his own job that has led Lampard to question his viability as Chelsea’s long-term No 1. It was also hard to tell in real time against Norwich how much his team-mates actually heeded his suggestions.

Chelsea played so quietly on Tuesday that it was never hard to pick out Lampard’s voice from the technical area.

His message was simple, underscored by frequent shouts of, “Quick! Quick! Quick!”, “Pass! Pass! Pass!” and “Forward!” Every time Norwich’s low block frustrated his team in a turgid first half, he leaned back at the knees, as if each retreat constituted a personal blow.

At both drinks breaks he did all of the talking, emphasising the need for more incision in Chelsea’s possession as his players took on liquids. “We had 10 to 15 minutes in the second half where we got sloppy and slow again,” he said after the match. “Passed back on ourselves. It is a trait that comes back in our game but we got out of that and finished (the match) well.”

Lampard is not going to get this Chelsea squad to become more vocal than their natural dispositions dictate. Then-manager Antonio Conte identified a creeping dearth of leadership among the club’s players as far back as 2016, and the fickle mentality of his players became a recurring riddle that his successor and Lampard’s predecessor Maurizio Sarri could never fully understand, let alone solve. Improvement in this area is more likely to come from the transfer market than from within; signing West Ham’s England international Declan Rice might well be a move in the right direction, but not enough on its own.

Without a true “leader of men” among them, Chelsea’s players will need to lean on their other qualities in order to secure that top-four finish over their final two games. They are technically talented and tactically smart enough to figure out problems between them on the pitch. They also have enough recent trophy experience to know how to win when it matters – especially when, as against Norwich, Lampard leaves virtually all of his dynamic academy graduates on the bench in favour of veterans.

It isn’t quite what Lampard is looking for, but it will have to do for now, and it might just be good enough to get Chelsea where they need to be at the end of this rollercoaster season.

[DDA 9,938]

53 minutes ago, Vesper said:

Listening to Chelsea is a reminder that this promising team needs leaders

https://theathletic.com/1929401/2020/07/15/chelsea-lampard-norwich-azpilicueta-kepa-jorginho

Frank Lampard set his Chelsea players a challenge against Norwich that went beyond moving three points closer to Champions League qualification.

“You can be as quiet as you want off the pitch – we have some quiet players who keep themselves to themselves – but they must come out of that on the pitch,” he insisted on Monday. “They must demand the ball, otherwise the game can pass you by. They must have character to talk to people around them.”

When the response came later in the day, it wasn’t accompanied by pointing fingers and bellowing lungs. It wasn’t even on the pitch, but rather in the Stamford Bridge tunnel immediately prior to kick-off.

As they waited to walk out, Christian Pulisic and Olivier Giroud were deep in tactical conversation, illustrating their points with arcing arm gestures that closely resembled the cross and header between them that would break Norwich’s stubborn resistance with the final act of the first half.

The exchange was captured by Chelsea’s in-house media team, who later posted it on their social channels with a winking emoji and the words: “It was all part of the brief!”

It wasn’t quite the ostentatious display of character Lampard is demanding from his team, but it looks increasingly like the form of personality he will have to accept from this group of players. There was no collective raising of the volume on the pitch against Norwich in response to their head coach’s words, only more low-key tactical conversations like the one shared by Giroud and Pulisic.

This, as Lampard himself admitted on Monday, is a team to whom screaming and shouting does not come naturally; they are closer in character to the late-Arsene Wenger era Arsenal crop that Graeme Souness so brutally described in 2015 as “a team of son-in-laws” than the dominant, powerful Chelsea sides that form the basis of Lampard’s legacy at Stamford Bridge.

Even club captain Cesar Azpilicueta is an immaculate ambassador for Chelsea precisely because he is so nice. He primarily leads by consistently solid example, his rare on-pitch pep talks generally consisting of a few sharp claps and a “Come on, guys!” He made a point of going up to every other Chelsea player before kick-off last night to offer a high-five and some words of encouragement.

So too did Jorginho, his vice-captain, who is required to take a greater share of responsibility by virtue of his position at the base of midfield, if nothing else. He could be heard directing his defenders on where to pass, as well as coordinating Chelsea’s press by urging Pulisic, Giroud and Willian whenever it was their turn to harass Norwich defenders.

But if playing in an empty Stamford Bridge has taught us anything new about the Chelsea that Lampard has inherited, it’s that Kepa Arrizabalaga is the most vocal player at the club.

That in itself isn’t hugely unusual; the stereotype of the permanently irate goalkeeper relentlessly berating his defenders – Peter Schmeichel always comes to mind – is well established in English football. Kepa did all the standard things against Norwich, instructing his back four when to drop and when to push up and alerting them to unmarked opposition runners (he often did so in his native Spanish to countrymen Azpilicueta and Marcos Alonso, using words like “abierto!” (open) and “arriba!” (up).

He did more than that, though, even pointing out to Chelsea’s midfielders when there was an opportunity to switch the play to the opposite flank, and shouting at the far away front three to press high whenever Norwich moved the ball into their zone of influence. This is logical, because a goalkeeper can see the whole pitch at all times, but also a little surprising because their role is so different to any other position in the team that they are almost playing a different sport.

It is jarring to try to reconcile the frequency and assertiveness of Kepa’s instructions to those in front of him on the pitch with the uncertainty over his own job that has led Lampard to question his viability as Chelsea’s long-term No 1. It was also hard to tell in real time against Norwich how much his team-mates actually heeded his suggestions.

Chelsea played so quietly on Tuesday that it was never hard to pick out Lampard’s voice from the technical area.

His message was simple, underscored by frequent shouts of, “Quick! Quick! Quick!”, “Pass! Pass! Pass!” and “Forward!” Every time Norwich’s low block frustrated his team in a turgid first half, he leaned back at the knees, as if each retreat constituted a personal blow.

At both drinks breaks he did all of the talking, emphasising the need for more incision in Chelsea’s possession as his players took on liquids. “We had 10 to 15 minutes in the second half where we got sloppy and slow again,” he said after the match. “Passed back on ourselves. It is a trait that comes back in our game but we got out of that and finished (the match) well.”

Lampard is not going to get this Chelsea squad to become more vocal than their natural dispositions dictate. Then-manager Antonio Conte identified a creeping dearth of leadership among the club’s players as far back as 2016, and the fickle mentality of his players became a recurring riddle that his successor and Lampard’s predecessor Maurizio Sarri could never fully understand, let alone solve. Improvement in this area is more likely to come from the transfer market than from within; signing West Ham’s England international Declan Rice might well be a move in the right direction, but not enough on its own.

Without a true “leader of men” among them, Chelsea’s players will need to lean on their other qualities in order to secure that top-four finish over their final two games. They are technically talented and tactically smart enough to figure out problems between them on the pitch. They also have enough recent trophy experience to know how to win when it matters – especially when, as against Norwich, Lampard leaves virtually all of his dynamic academy graduates on the bench in favour of veterans.

It isn’t quite what Lampard is looking for, but it will have to do for now, and it might just be good enough to get Chelsea where they need to be at the end of this rollercoaster season.

Spot on. You can literally see all of what was said, week in, week out. We need a proper leader on that pitch. Azpi is not it. I don't care if people in here want to argue against that and try to impose a difference of opinion because you will not change the facts. We have no real leaders and our current captain is not a big enough personality on the field to carry the responsibility of wearing the armband for such a big club.

[Jase 43,479]

1 hour ago, Vesper said:

Listening to Chelsea is a reminder that this promising team needs leaders

https://theathletic.com/1929401/2020/07/15/chelsea-lampard-norwich-azpilicueta-kepa-jorginho

Frank Lampard set his Chelsea players a challenge against Norwich that went beyond moving three points closer to Champions League qualification.

“You can be as quiet as you want off the pitch – we have some quiet players who keep themselves to themselves – but they must come out of that on the pitch,” he insisted on Monday. “They must demand the ball, otherwise the game can pass you by. They must have character to talk to people around them.”

When the response came later in the day, it wasn’t accompanied by pointing fingers and bellowing lungs. It wasn’t even on the pitch, but rather in the Stamford Bridge tunnel immediately prior to kick-off.

As they waited to walk out, Christian Pulisic and Olivier Giroud were deep in tactical conversation, illustrating their points with arcing arm gestures that closely resembled the cross and header between them that would break Norwich’s stubborn resistance with the final act of the first half.

The exchange was captured by Chelsea’s in-house media team, who later posted it on their social channels with a winking emoji and the words: “It was all part of the brief!”

It wasn’t quite the ostentatious display of character Lampard is demanding from his team, but it looks increasingly like the form of personality he will have to accept from this group of players. There was no collective raising of the volume on the pitch against Norwich in response to their head coach’s words, only more low-key tactical conversations like the one shared by Giroud and Pulisic.

This, as Lampard himself admitted on Monday, is a team to whom screaming and shouting does not come naturally; they are closer in character to the late-Arsene Wenger era Arsenal crop that Graeme Souness so brutally described in 2015 as “a team of son-in-laws” than the dominant, powerful Chelsea sides that form the basis of Lampard’s legacy at Stamford Bridge.

Even club captain Cesar Azpilicueta is an immaculate ambassador for Chelsea precisely because he is so nice. He primarily leads by consistently solid example, his rare on-pitch pep talks generally consisting of a few sharp claps and a “Come on, guys!” He made a point of going up to every other Chelsea player before kick-off last night to offer a high-five and some words of encouragement.

So too did Jorginho, his vice-captain, who is required to take a greater share of responsibility by virtue of his position at the base of midfield, if nothing else. He could be heard directing his defenders on where to pass, as well as coordinating Chelsea’s press by urging Pulisic, Giroud and Willian whenever it was their turn to harass Norwich defenders.

But if playing in an empty Stamford Bridge has taught us anything new about the Chelsea that Lampard has inherited, it’s that Kepa Arrizabalaga is the most vocal player at the club.

That in itself isn’t hugely unusual; the stereotype of the permanently irate goalkeeper relentlessly berating his defenders – Peter Schmeichel always comes to mind – is well established in English football. Kepa did all the standard things against Norwich, instructing his back four when to drop and when to push up and alerting them to unmarked opposition runners (he often did so in his native Spanish to countrymen Azpilicueta and Marcos Alonso, using words like “abierto!” (open) and “arriba!” (up).

He did more than that, though, even pointing out to Chelsea’s midfielders when there was an opportunity to switch the play to the opposite flank, and shouting at the far away front three to press high whenever Norwich moved the ball into their zone of influence. This is logical, because a goalkeeper can see the whole pitch at all times, but also a little surprising because their role is so different to any other position in the team that they are almost playing a different sport.

It is jarring to try to reconcile the frequency and assertiveness of Kepa’s instructions to those in front of him on the pitch with the uncertainty over his own job that has led Lampard to question his viability as Chelsea’s long-term No 1. It was also hard to tell in real time against Norwich how much his team-mates actually heeded his suggestions.

Chelsea played so quietly on Tuesday that it was never hard to pick out Lampard’s voice from the technical area.

His message was simple, underscored by frequent shouts of, “Quick! Quick! Quick!”, “Pass! Pass! Pass!” and “Forward!” Every time Norwich’s low block frustrated his team in a turgid first half, he leaned back at the knees, as if each retreat constituted a personal blow.

At both drinks breaks he did all of the talking, emphasising the need for more incision in Chelsea’s possession as his players took on liquids. “We had 10 to 15 minutes in the second half where we got sloppy and slow again,” he said after the match. “Passed back on ourselves. It is a trait that comes back in our game but we got out of that and finished (the match) well.”

Lampard is not going to get this Chelsea squad to become more vocal than their natural dispositions dictate. Then-manager Antonio Conte identified a creeping dearth of leadership among the club’s players as far back as 2016, and the fickle mentality of his players became a recurring riddle that his successor and Lampard’s predecessor Maurizio Sarri could never fully understand, let alone solve. Improvement in this area is more likely to come from the transfer market than from within; signing West Ham’s England international Declan Rice might well be a move in the right direction, but not enough on its own.

Without a true “leader of men” among them, Chelsea’s players will need to lean on their other qualities in order to secure that top-four finish over their final two games. They are technically talented and tactically smart enough to figure out problems between them on the pitch. They also have enough recent trophy experience to know how to win when it matters – especially when, as against Norwich, Lampard leaves virtually all of his dynamic academy graduates on the bench in favour of veterans.

It isn’t quite what Lampard is looking for, but it will have to do for now, and it might just be good enough to get Chelsea where they need to be at the end of this rollercoaster season.

Nothing wrong with the article or the need for more communication point mentioned by Lampard but the ironic thing is Lampard wasn't exactly the most vocal of players during his playing days. He was someone who led more by example, let his actions do the talking, than anything else. It was someone like Terry who was the most vocal one.

[Jase 43,479]

36 minutes ago, DDA said:

Spot on. You can literally see all of what was said, week in, week out. We need a proper leader on that pitch. Azpi is not it. I don't care if people in here want to argue against that and try to impose a difference of opinion because you will not change the facts. We have no real leaders and our current captain is not a big enough personality on the field to carry the responsibility of wearing the armband for such a big club.

Not going to disagree but the larger point here should be about whether these players take responsibility for the performances they put out there, leader or not. We have players who we know what we are going to get from them, players who will give at least a 7 or 8 out of 10 every week and then there are players who give a 9/10 one week and then 3/10 the following week. Azpi might not be a leader like JT, but if others can show the same attitude and produce the same kind of consistency like he does at the very least, we wouldn't be yo-yo-ing so much with our performances/results. 

[Vesper 30,175]

1 hour ago, Jason said:

Nothing wrong with the article or the need for more communication point mentioned by Lampard but the ironic thing is Lampard wasn't exactly the most vocal of players during his playing days. He was someone who led more by example, let his actions do the talking, than anything else. It was someone like Terry who was the most vocal one.

and Cech and Drogba and Ballack

[OneMoSalah 8,886]

2 hours ago, DDA said:

Spot on. You can literally see all of what was said, week in, week out. We need a proper leader on that pitch. Azpi is not it. I don't care if people in here want to argue against that and try to impose a difference of opinion because you will not change the facts. We have no real leaders and our current captain is not a big enough personality on the field to carry the responsibility of wearing the armband for such a big club.

Its all well and good saying that but in these tope squads even if player X or Y is the captain and vice captain you need more than just 2 leadership figures. You look at any successful business or sports team or whatever and they are littered with leaders. From Amazon to Google to Facebook to Liverpool to Man City to Bayern Munich....

Obviously we had Cech, Brana, Cole, Lampard, Ballack, Drogba, Terry, Carvalho back in the day who were leaders and big personalities regardless of the manager. Football has changed in a lot of ways but even with Conte being here or Jose again, he had Courtois, Cahill, Luiz, Costa, Cesc and Hazard to a lesser extent we still had those sort of players but we also had Jose and Conte too. 
 

Liverpool have got a great squad but if you look in it there are a lot of people who have been captains/vice captains at club or NT level or worn the armbands there or at former clubs in spells. Van Dijk, Henderson, Milner, Robertson, Wjinaldum, Lallana, Matip IIRC, Lovren. 
 

There is a mixture of leaders there, with different qualities and ways of being leaders. Some can lead through example and some can lead by being vocal, there are various different leadership types and qualities that make leaders up. Not just in football, in business, in engineering, in science, in whatever.

We need a few more leaders in and around the squad, we had an influx of talented but less experienced youngsters and lost Eden, Gaz and David, 3 senior players at the club. The coaching side has to try and compensate for this lack of leadership more imo and drive these guys on a bit more until we can add a few guys or some of these players develop into leaders. Its not just a matter of you are born a leader or you cannot ever be one. Leadership is a quality that is developed. The staff can push players on this also.  There are many different things in sports psychology that can be utilised to improve mentality and help players push through the barrier and become leaders in whatever way they can. Be it being more vocal like Jorginho (I have also seen this with Kepa since he arrived, as a GK he is extremely vocal anyway but more so compared to Tibo and Cech imo) or leading by example like Azpi does imo of lead by making the difference when it matters most (Drogba and Cech back in the day).

 

[ZaynChelsea 423]

 

That‘s so interesting and that‘s why I am happy we have a legend in the dugout and no toxic Conte. Amazing what happened behind the scenes.

[NikkiCFC 8,319]

top4 and trophy please!

That would be great season after transfer ban, losing best player...

At this point I would be very disappointed if we do not end up with both!

[OneMoSalah 8,886]

Even after today, its obvious the season hasnt gone as well as we would all want it to but a cup final and a top 4 finish would be a step for Frank and this squad. Need to win more games next season though and address a few glaring issues we have had over the course of the season but beating Arsenal in a cup final is always a good way to end a season.

[Magic Lamps 11,692]

So much for OGS being a better manager than Lamps. Completely outfoxed him today. Utd were well and truly under control. except for all those diving shit they pulled vindicated by the ref.

We were smarter than in the last 3 games vs ManU, we still controlled the match and the tempo but we negated their pace with 3 at the back always being able to double up on rashford, james and later martial and greenwood. sitting kovacic on fernandes also worked very well.