Non-Chelsea Transfer Pub

[TorontoChelsea 4,064]

He's an attacking midfielder RIGHT NOW. He's playing there because that's where Everton need him. He sees himself as a DM, when Everton bought him he was a DM and when the club first started looking at him he was a DM. It's getting fairly tiring explaining the same point over and over again. In fact on a forum that's supposed to be full of football supporters, it's somewhat laughable if I'm being honest.

The 'massive weaknesses' you alluded to are wrong in my opinion too. I saw little wrong with his defensive positioning when he was playing that DM role.

In my opinion, he would replace Mikel in the team because he offers a lot more in terms of passing ability, defensive strength and as I've said before, I like his attitude. I think he has something about his personality that Mikel doesn't. He's stepped up and done a job for Everton this year.

Fellaini is valuable and people want him because of what he is doing the past couple of years where he hasn't played much at all of DM. As a DM, he was mediocre and wasn't really a real DM anyway. Even before this season, he was taking between 1.5-2 shot a game. Defensive midfielders don't do that. They almost never shoot. Look at last year shots taken. Busquets-5, Song-14, Mikel-11, Fellaini-52. Defensive midfielders don't shoot that often, because you're not supposed to find yourself in scoring positions twice a game.If you also look at positional charts, Fellaini was nowhere near the DM position. People like him because he's noticeable and he's always involved in plays, but he was nowhere near elite as a defensive midfielder. He was often out of position and forced to foul, something he still does but matters a lot less because of his new position. What you want in a DM is someone like Busquets. Safe, smart defensively, makes mostly short to medium passes at a high level, etc...Fellaini is the opposite of that.

Here's a few head to head statistic differences (and I'll throw in Busquets too to show a good guide to what DM should be)

Passing pct%-Busquets-91.3%, Mikel 89.9%, Fellaini-78.7%

Avg # of passes a game, Busquets-79.4, Mikel, 61.4, Fellaini 47.7

Long balls/game-Busquets-4.5, Mikel-3.4, Fellaini-2.2

Tackles per game-Mikel 2.6, Buquets 2.6 Fellaini 1.7

Interceptions per game-Mikel 1.8, Busquets 1.5, Fellaini 0.7

Fouls per game-Busquets-0.9, Mikel 2.1 Fellani 3.2

Dispossessed per game- Busquets-0.5, Mikel-0.6, Fellaini 2.5

People want Fellaini because he's flashy, but he's worse than Mikel in every way as a defensive midfielder except in aerial ability. His passing is weak, he gives up the ball way too often, his positioning is poor, and he fouls constantly. People always overrate certain sorts of players and Fellaini is a perfect example of that.

[Rmpr 8,977]

@TorontoChelsea, you can manipulate the stats as much as you want, I dont think they are a big value to the discussion.

However, I do agree with everything you just said.

[Magic Lamps 11,537]

Read somewhere that Diame at West Ham has a release clause of £3.5m!

Now I like Fellaini but he isn't worth £25-30m. Diame would be an excellent buy for that price if true. He would suit Benitez's high pressing game perfectly, and he's very sound on the ball too. This isn't just based on him single handedly destroying us for West Ham last week, he has been their best player all season and was also underrated for Wigan last season.

January is difficult for us because we are out of the Champions League and we currently have an interim manager. Is there any point spending £20-30m on a player who possibly a new manager next season doesn't fancy?!

When we could feasibly buy Demba Ba and Diame for a little over £10m, beefing up our options in two areas we are lacking, and who come with Premier League experience.

This. Cheap, proven EPL-performers, in their best years. They are cheap because they are not big names or there is a hype around them. often these hypes are not really based on the results of thorough scouting. I think with Fellaini it has been more about his hair and height at first and then he caught some eyes with his goals, but is that really what we need? Bayern Munich bought Javier martinez for 40 fucking million €, which are more than 30 m pounds. Is he worth it? Of course not. One could have got a player as good and versatile as him for 10m if one would go after performance only. But he is spanish and had some good performances in the Euro league and the fans demanded a star signing in the DM position as they thought the only position they had no really big name in was the no.6. So they bought a player who they already have in Tymosthschuk and Gustavo. The really important signings were Mandzukic and Dante, which were - guess - bargains, best age, proven performers in that league but no big names. Now they have ripped everything to shreds (which isn not only because all their opponents have been . Another example. We bought Cahill for 8m, Luiz for 24m, either in January, either when we needed a good defender for instant impact. has Luiz really been 3 times as good? How much did we paid too much cos of his big Hair and skillset? Well we needed a Defender not a technically brillant joker. You sometimes need big names. They sell merchandise products and add something special. But at the moment we do not need that. It is not moment for spending big as we did in summer. We set the direction of football we were aiming to play, now we have to adress the new and old issues that are left and just have been created by that decision. We got enough potential and flair in the team, we also got enough big names or at least great prospects, which we opted to purchase instead of finished superstars. we should look at what we need now, which is some steel, build up and passing abilities in midfield and a decent striker. No idea if Diame and Ba are exactly the men for this, but i think we should be scouting exactly guys as these. They can still develope here but are already mature enough and used to the football to make immediate impact. They might not solve all our problems but also most big money purchases don't guarantee that.

[TorontoChelsea 4,064]

@TorontoChelsea, you can manipulate the stats as much as you want, I dont think they are a big value to the discussion.

However, I do agree with everything you just said.

One can manipulate stats, but these are actually important ones. Defensive midfielders make tackles, they intercept, they pass at a high percentage, they make tackles, they intercept the ball, they make clearances, and they don't get involved too much in offensive play. If you look at defensive midfielders like Mikel, Busquets, Song, Tiote, Sandro, Lucas Leiva etc...they are generally pretty similar in what they do. Fellaini is a completely different player. And not just this year either. He's been moving up the pitch gradually for years and the numbers show that. What people who want him are essentially saying is "let's take a player who was a mediocre defensive midfielder and was miscast there and who is now excelling as an attacking midfielder, let's go out and spend an enormous amount of money based on that player's success as an attacking midfielder so we can turn him back into a defensive midfielder". It makes no sense .

[Rmpr 8,977]

One can manipulate stats, but these are actually important ones. Defensive midfielders make tackles, they intercept, they pass at a high percentage, they make tackles, they intercept the ball, they make clearances, and they don't get involved too much in offensive play. If you look at defensive midfielders like Mikel, Busquets, Song, Tiote, Sandro, Lucas Leiva etc...they are generally pretty similar in what they do. Fellaini is a completely different player. And not just this year either. He's been moving up the pitch gradually for years and the numbers show that. What people who want him are essentially saying is "let's take a player who was a mediocre defensive midfielder and was miscast there and who is now excelling as an attacking midfielder, let's go out and spend an enormous amount of money based on that player's success as an attacking midfielder so we can turn him back into a defensive midfielder". It makes no sense .

Fair enough!

By the way, no need to provide any argument to convince me. I have made it very clear Fellaini is a bad DM, overhiped and overpriced.

[The only place to be 11,313]

Fellaini is valuable and people want him because of what he is doing the past couple of years where he hasn't played much at all of DM. As a DM, he was mediocre and wasn't really a real DM anyway.

I'm not going to even bother reading past this because it's absolute rubbish. Sorry.

When he was at Liege, he was a DM and he was scouted by many, many top teams. Everton getting him was a brilliant coup in that sense. We became interested in him again after he showed some outstanding performances in the DM position at Everton but we went in a different direction with our transfers.

To say he was 'mediocre' as a DM is just untrue. I don't know if you didn't watch his games for Everton in that position, are simply misremembering or if you're flat out lying but you're totally incorrect. It's actually laughable how wrong you are about this.

[The only place to be 11,313]

One can manipulate stats, but these are actually important ones. Defensive midfielders make tackles, they intercept, they pass at a high percentage, they make tackles, they intercept the ball, they make clearances, and they don't get involved too much in offensive play. If you look at defensive midfielders like Mikel, Busquets, Song, Tiote, Sandro, Lucas Leiva etc...they are generally pretty similar in what they do. Fellaini is a completely different player. And not just this year either. He's been moving up the pitch gradually for years and the numbers show that. What people who want him are essentially saying is "let's take a player who was a mediocre defensive midfielder and was miscast there and who is now excelling as an attacking midfielder, let's go out and spend an enormous amount of money based on that player's success as an attacking midfielder so we can turn him back into a defensive midfielder". It makes no sense .

I like how you've taken stats from seasons when he was being played in an advanced position because that's what Everton required of him. It's like criticising Gareth Bale by using the stats from when he was being played at left-back by Spurs.

The problem is that you're simply wrong about a number of things. He wasn't a mediocre DM in the slightest. He was actually one of the best in the league in around 2010 but he suffered an injury that wrecked his season. He wasn't 'miscast' there - it was the fucking position he grew up playing. :D

The fact that he's had success as as more attacking midfielder isn't a negative either - it shows his ability to adapt to new things even if he's not particularly keen on it. Just recently he reiterated his desire to move back into the DM position in future and it is there that I think he could have a good future for us.

I don't mind arguing the merits of players and their potential worth to Chelsea but it's fucking frustrating having to keep make the same point over and over to people whose knowledge of football seems to extend to Drogba's penalty hitting the back of the net in Munich.

[BlueLyon 9,359]

Is there any chance of us signing Song in january/summer? He played for Arsenal, but I dont think he is that loyal to them nowdays, and he doesnt play important role in Barca, so he might want to leave. Toure was in similar position and then he left for City for 25mio£. I think Song would evolve in world class CM if he would play regulary.

I cant imagine him joining us, unless we offer Barca Luiz in exchange. But I would keep David, he still has something special about him.

[BlueLyon 9,359]

I don't think we try to replicate barca, it's all about getting the best of our players. We signed all these fantastic playmakers, we cannot player power football anymore. We need to play slightly more possesion football which oscar and mata thrive on. Does it make us play slightly like arsenal/Barca, yes it does but we have no option.

Yeah, but except Barca, no one that tries to play tiki taka is sucessful nowdays. Yes people enoy watching it (thats why Ajax has so many fans), but it doesnt give you big results. Arsenal are fine example (well they sold their best players too, they would have fantastic squad if they kept Rvp, Cesc, Song, Adebayor, Cole,...), still the style just seems its not efficient. Real is trying to play nice football, but even they have issues with inconsistency. Ronaldo saves them many times too.

I dont want us to play tikitaka, I never liked that style, and only Barca was sucess in that. I want us to be efficient in front of opponent goal and not open our legs wide in front of our goal.

But lets wait for a manager, some new players, what style will we play and end with transition. Then make judgement, I will.

[kellzfresh 7,226]

Fellani as a DM:

1. more aggresive than mikel

2. Passes foward so he misplaces more passes obviously.

3. Can score from setpieces better, and defend better

4. Can score from distance, outside the box shooter.

5. An option in AM in case of physically tough opposition

Mikel-

1. Better passer, mainly because he passes to the side

2. Offers protection to the back four, no headless chiken foward runs

3. Less agressive than fellani

4. Boss at shielding the ball from people.

They both don't have long range passing in their locker, which is what we lack in our DM compared to many other top teams in europe.

[TorontoChelsea 4,064]

I don't mind arguing the merits of players and their potential worth to Chelsea but it's fucking frustrating having to keep make the same point over and over to people whose knowledge of football seems to extend to Drogba's penalty hitting the back of the net in Munich.

So basically don't mind arguing about the merits of individual players as long as people agree with you. Just because people disagree with you about a player, doesn't mean they don't know anything. Dismissing anyone who thinks that Fellaini wasn't a fabulous defensive midfielder as not knowing anything doesn't make you right, it makes you a prick. You have quickly become one of my least favourite posters on here because of your arrogance and habit of dismissing disagreement as ignorance. I mean your depth of football knowledge is just too vast for us mere mortals. We all just started following football May2012. Is the guy kicking the ball towards the goalie man supposed to try to hit him or to get the ball past him? Please, tell me more. I don't know anything. If we try to do more goals than the other team, is that good? Are we the team in blue or red? I'm so confused! Just fuck off.

[SinineUltra 1,170]

So basically don't mind arguing about the merits of individual players as long as people agree with you. Just because people disagree with you about a player, doesn't mean they don't know anything. Dismissing anyone who thinks that Fellaini wasn't a fabulous defensive midfielder as not knowing anything doesn't make you right, it makes you a prick. You have quickly become one of my least favourite posters on here because of your arrogance and habit of dismissing disagreement as ignorance. I mean your depth of football knowledge is just too vast for us mere mortals. We all just started following football May2012. Is the guy kicking the ball towards the goalie man supposed to try to hit him or to get the ball past him? Please, tell me more. I don't know anything. If we try to do more goals than the other team, is that good? Are we the team in blue or red? I'm so confused! Just fuck off.

Im not picking sides, but in my humble opinion The only place to be seems a great lad with spot on posts.. you guys could agree to disagree

[Corner 456]

Fellani as a DM:

1. more aggresive than mikel

2. Passes foward so he misplaces more passes obviously.

3. Can score from setpieces better, and defend better

4. Can score from distance, outside the box shooter.

5. An option in AM in case of physically tough opposition

Mikel-

1. Better passer, mainly because he passes to the side

2. Offers protection to the back four, no headless chiken foward runs

3. Less agressive than fellani

4. Boss at shielding the ball from people.

They both don't have long range passing in their locker, which is what we lack in our DM compared to many other top teams in europe.

Every point you listed for Mikel there is basically what a DM is supposed to do. Sometimes I'm confused as to what people actually expect Mikel to do. I also think Mikel's passing has massively improved this season. He doesn't just pass to the side anymore. What we needed from a DM this season with the three attacking midfielders being so adventurous was someone like Busquets, and Mikel performs the role perfectly.

Just because Fellaini says DM is his favourite position it doesn't mean it's his best one. I just don't think he has the discipline or the intelligence to play as our DM. We don't need someone to replace Mikel, we need a back-up. Although I would prefer to see Romeu get more chances to play rather than us signing someon else.

[The Skipper 20,593]

I'm not going to even bother reading past this because it's absolute rubbish. Sorry.

When he was at Liege, he was a DM and he was scouted by many, many top teams. Everton getting him was a brilliant coup in that sense. We became interested in him again after he showed some outstanding performances in the DM position at Everton but we went in a different direction with our transfers.

To say he was 'mediocre' as a DM is just untrue. I don't know if you didn't watch his games for Everton in that position, are simply misremembering or if you're flat out lying but you're totally incorrect. It's actually laughable how wrong you are about this.

Replace his "mediocre" term with "slightly above average" and he's spot on. Fellaini wasn't a world beater at DM.

[Leif 6,006]

I believe going after Lewandowski would be a terribly risky move. Here's why (based on lots of 'ifs' and 'buts' etc.):-

I believe he is perfectly built for the Bundesliga, and the Bundesliga is built for him. Just like Kezmen and the Eredivisie fit like a glove.

Lewandowski is at a team which has a great work rate, great chemistry, great fans, great stadium, great board, great players - everything needed to make a striker a success.

If he transferred here, he'd instantly have the pressure of being a big money signing. He'd be in a lazy team (no offence to our players, but I personally feel that Mikel, Cech, Mata, Torres, even Ramires) are some of more players who have let their hunger, desire and work rate drop.

He gets great service in the Bundesliga. Despite our attacking trio getting more chances to fall in the way of Torres, it's still not enough. Other areas of the team need work before a striker will truly be prolific here.

Borussia Dortmund is simply the perfect team for Lewandowski. The team also play for him and to his strengths - much like Atletico Madrid do with Falcao. This makes me feel that his actual 'not-so-greatness' is masked.

Look at Kagawa and Sahin as 2 examples of almost everything mentioned above. Pretty much all of that could be applied to these two as well (although out of the 3, I believe Kagawa has the most potential and will end up being the best at adapting etc.)

Kagawa and Sahin haven't even been half the players they were at Dortmund. It's no magical loss of form which will be found with their new teams. It's because Dortmund. Was. Perfect. For. Them. Just as it is for Lewandowski.

Also, has anyone even thought about this? - Maybe he wouldn't want to leave a team which he probably realises is perfect for him too? Or that Dortmund aren't going to let their best striker leave with only a back-up striker left in the squad? Yeah.

[The only place to be 11,313]

So basically don't mind arguing about the merits of individual players as long as people agree with you. Just because people disagree with you about a player, doesn't mean they don't know anything. Dismissing anyone who thinks that Fellaini wasn't a fabulous defensive midfielder as not knowing anything doesn't make you right, it makes you a prick. You have quickly become one of my least favourite posters on here because of your arrogance and habit of dismissing disagreement as ignorance. I mean your depth of football knowledge is just too vast for us mere mortals. We all just started following football May2012. Is the guy kicking the ball towards the goalie man supposed to try to hit him or to get the ball past him? Please, tell me more. I don't know anything. If we try to do more goals than the other team, is that good? Are we the team in blue or red? I'm so confused! Just fuck off.

It's not about agreeing or disagreeing with my subjective views - it's about people talking complete bollocks about somewhat objective facts. People who don't seem to know what position Fellaini actually played just two years ago or how well-regarded he was, yet still try and offer an opinion is just utterly pointless to any debate.

You can rely on stats and misrepresent them as much as you like, but try watching a bit of football and then maybe you won't say such complete bullshit. The fact that you haven't addressed a single point but have thrown the toys out of the pram is a little much isn't it?

Fellani as a DM:

1. more aggresive than mikel

2. Passes foward so he misplaces more passes obviously.

3. Can score from setpieces better, and defend better

4. Can score from distance, outside the box shooter.

5. An option in AM in case of physically tough opposition

Mikel-

1. Better passer, mainly because he passes to the side

2. Offers protection to the back four, no headless chiken foward runs

3. Less agressive than fellani

4. Boss at shielding the ball from people.

They both don't have long range passing in their locker, which is what we lack in our DM compared to many other top teams in europe. Also it's unfair to say Mikel is a better passer when he's asked to do a different thing at Chelsea. Fellaini is asked to play in a more advanced position where the passes are 'higher risk'.

In my opinion, we don't need someone who can pass it long from that position. What we need is someone reliable who can get the ball off quickly to one of the creative players and who doesn't give up. That's it. There's a reason why people like De Visser have been high on him for years and it's why we have been linked with him for almost two years now.

Replace his "mediocre" term with "slightly above average" and he's spot on. Fellaini wasn't a world beater at DM.

The truth is that he wasn't mediocre when he was deployed in that position at Everton. He was one of the best players in the league at the age of about 22/23. Now he's been moved further up the pitch partly because Everton lost Cahill and partly because he's just so damned effective there, and people want to rewrite history.

[kellzfresh 7,226]

Every point you listed for Mikel there is basically what a DM is supposed to do. Sometimes I'm confused as to what people actually expect Mikel to do. I also think Mikel's passing has massively improved this season. He doesn't just pass to the side anymore. What we needed from a DM this season with the three attacking midfielders being so adventurous was someone like Busquets, and Mikel performs the role perfectly.

Just because Fellaini says DM is his favourite position it doesn't mean it's his best one. I just don't think he has the discipline or the intelligence to play as our DM. We don't need someone to replace Mikel, we need a back-up. Although I would prefer to see Romeu get more chances to play rather than us signing someon else.

I just said both of them lack long passing, I didn't directly say mikel is bad, I don't like fellani in the dm too either. What we need is a regista, a ball passer beside a box to box in the pivot.

[The only place to be 11,313]

I believe going after Lewandowski would be a terribly risky move. Here's why (based on lots of 'ifs' and 'buts' etc.):-

I believe he is perfectly built for the Bundesliga, and the Bundesliga is built for him. Just like Kezmen and the Eredivisie fit like a glove.

Lewandowski is at a team which has a great work rate, great chemistry, great fans, great stadium, great board, great players - everything needed to make a striker a success.

If he transferred here, he'd instantly have the pressure of being a big money signing. He'd be in a lazy team (no offence to our players, but I personally feel that Mikel, Cech, Mata, Torres, even Ramires) are some of more players who have let their hunger, desire and work rate drop.

He gets great service in the Bundesliga. Despite our attacking trio getting more chances to fall in the way of Torres, it's still not enough. Other areas of the team need work before a striker will truly be prolific here.

Borussia Dortmund is simply the perfect team for Lewandowski. The team also play for him and to his strengths - much like Atletico Madrid do with Falcao. This makes me feel that his actual 'not-so-greatness' is masked.

Look at Kagawa and Sahin as 2 examples of almost everything mentioned above. Pretty much all of that could be applied to these two as well (although out of the 3, I believe Kagawa has the most potential and will end up being the best at adapting etc.)

Kagawa and Sahin haven't even been half the players they were at Dortmund. It's no magical loss of form which will be found with their new teams. It's because Dortmund. Was. Perfect. For. Them. Just as it is for Lewandowski.

Also, has anyone even thought about this? - Maybe he wouldn't want to leave a team which he probably realises is perfect for him too? Or that Dortmund aren't going to let their best striker leave with only a back-up striker left in the squad? Yeah.

I kinda agree, but my biggest reservation about any big-name striker coming in is what the new manager will want from that position. It's all very well spending £40 million on someone but six months down the line who knows what we'll want.

It's why I'm more inclined to go for the PL proven cheaper guys like Ba and even Bent because they'll still have value in the market 6 months down the line.