Juan Mata

[CHOULO19 24,332]

  On 09/09/2013 at 16:57, chelsea_4_eva said:

Is Oscar crying?

EDIT: Never mind, DJames answered the question above.

[Kinol 337]

  On 09/09/2013 at 15:57, LDN Blue said:

For the Supercup match, it's not that he was unused (though that's still an issue), it's the fact the player we claim is the vital player for us, isn't playing a cup final. If he's as important as we think, he should be starting such games.

If the United match, the match vs the Champions & fellow title contenders, isn't his type of game.. What is?

Im not talking about the status of the game, but the tactical side. Mourinho clearly used his famous "we cannot lose" speech.

[Hybrid Angel 2,130]

Totally agree with the fact that Mata couldn't have been effective against Bayern because of his poor defensive abilities and that's why Mou decided to use Schurrle who had previously played against Bayern on a couple of occasions and is much better than Mata in terms of defending.

Also, I am pretty sure that most of you remember Mata's performance against Brasil in the Confederation Cup's Final which he was completely outplayed in by Brazil's high pressing. Bayern play like that too. That was how they managed to control Barca's midfield last year.

[-Kaplan- 410]

Will be very surprised if Mata stays past the winter transfer-window. He's too good to sit on the bench for us. Hopefully Mourinho can actually clear things up with him(not that vague bullshit), like he did with Iker. Otherwise, bye bye Mata.

If he did leave, he is well within his right. He deserves to start every game.

[Jase 43,479]

  Quote

Miguel Delaney ‏@MiguelDelaney 5m

Mourinho on Mata: "He's in the same plans as all the others. He's a player I like very much, that's why he's here. A player I trust a lot."

Mourinho on Mata: "He's a player that starts the match, sometimes on the bench, the squad is good, the squad is competitive."

Mourinho: "With matches every three days, sometimes I will make decisions that are strange in your eyes... leave out an important player."

[BlueLyon 9,359]

Perhaps he is just keeping him to not be too tired and gain fitness properly. Having top Mata in march-may is better than rushing him at the moment. He might seriously need break atm or sth.

[kellzfresh 7,229]

all i know is he must start tomorrow, no excuses this time

[meetdoscar 335]

I remember when RDM rested mata at the beginning of last season people hardly complained but now despite needing rest(which showed in the game vs villa) and nursing an injury at the beginning of the season in a team with so much quality which will enable him bring out his best when he returns people have their heads turned. I think people are as unpredictable as my timing for a drink.

[TorontoChelsea 4,064]

  On 13/09/2013 at 15:55, meetdoscar said:

I remember when RDM rested mata at the beginning of last season people hardly complained but now despite needing rest(which showed in the game vs villa) and nursing an injury at the beginning of the season in a team with so much quality which will enable him bring out his best when he returns people have their heads turned. I think people are as unpredictable as my timing for a drink.

That was different. Everyone knew Mata was our most important player and that he badly needed a rest. He had trained and played a little at the Euro and then played in the Olympics were his last game was 10 days before the Community Shield (and he missed our entire pre-season). He had had no rest at all. There was an international break in September that Mata wasn't called up for an RDM saw this as an opportunity to give him a major break by not starting him 2 games. The Confederation Cup ended over 2 months ago. Mata has had a very long break already. He doesn't need rest. He needs playing time to get back into game shape.

[robsblubot 3,595]

what's his contract situation? I heard he was in talks for a renewal, but nothing since then. I reckon this is certainly part of what is going on. Perhaps Chelsea (no so much Mourinho) are showing Mata he is not *that* important for the money his agent may be asking...

I maintain my position that it is very difficult to accommodate both Hazard and Mata in any starting XI.

[TorontoChelsea 4,064]

  On 13/09/2013 at 16:45, Robguima said:

what's his contract situation? I heard he was in talks for a renewal, but nothing since then. I reckon this is certainly part of what is going on. Perhaps Chelsea (no so much Mourinho) are showing Mata he is not *that* important for the money his agent may be asking...

I maintain my position that it is very difficult to accommodate both Hazard and Mata in any starting XI.

Chelsea are a team that just spent 32M pounds on a player they didn't really need, I don't think they'd risk harming the team for a salary negotiation with their best player. I can see Hazard and Mata working fine together with a real right-sided midfielder, the issue for me is more Oscar versus Mata. In a 4-2-3-1, Oscar is useless anywhere other than the #10 and that's really the only place Mata is good for (or on the left but he drifts in a lot anyway). It's a choice between offensive dynamism, scoring, creativity, and weak defensive work and shape, versus excellent work ethic, defensive diligence, and uneven offensive production. (Mata and Oscar have now played 36 and 37 games in the Premier League since the beginning of last season. Mata has 12 goals, 12 assists, Oscar 5 goals and 5 assists). I am pretty sure Mata will still play a lot and if we are ever down in a game he will be one of the first subs brought on when he doesn't start, but Mourinho is a manager who cares a lot about defensive responsibility and balance so Mata loses out. (and I think Chelsea and football as a whole is a lot less interesting without Mata playing regularly)

[kellzfresh 7,229]

  On 13/09/2013 at 17:13, TorontoChelsea said:

Chelsea are a team that just spent 32M pounds on a player they didn't really need, I don't think they'd risk harming the team for a salary negotiation with their best player. I can see Hazard and Mata working fine together with a real right-sided midfielder, the issue for me is more Oscar versus Mata. In a 4-2-3-1, Oscar is useless anywhere other than the #10 and that's really the only place Mata is good for (or on the left but he drifts in a lot anyway). It's a choice between offensive dynamism, scoring, creativity, and weak defensive work and shape, versus excellent work ethic, defensive diligence, and uneven offensive production. (Mata and Oscar have now played 36 and 37 games in the Premier League since the beginning of last season. Mata has 12 goals, 12 assists, Oscar 5 goals and 5 assists). I am pretty sure Mata will still play a lot and if we are ever down in a game he will be one of the first subs brought on when he doesn't start, but Mourinho is a manager who cares a lot about defensive responsibility and balance so Mata loses out. (and I think Chelsea and football as a whole is a lot less interesting without Mata playing regularly)

Its not like mourinho is completely only thinking of the defensive responsibility, its just that he play with wingers more and likes the middle of the park to be close together to gain an advantage in the midfield battle, (like brazil).

[robsblubot 3,595]

  On 13/09/2013 at 17:13, TorontoChelsea said:

Chelsea are a team that just spent 32M pounds on a player they didn't really need, I don't think they'd risk harming the team for a salary negotiation with their best player. I can see Hazard and Mata working fine together with a real right-sided midfielder, the issue for me is more Oscar versus Mata. In a 4-2-3-1, Oscar is useless anywhere other than the #10 and that's really the only place Mata is good for (or on the left but he drifts in a lot anyway). It's a choice between offensive dynamism, scoring, creativity, and weak defensive work and shape, versus excellent work ethic, defensive diligence, and uneven offensive production. (Mata and Oscar have now played 36 and 37 games in the Premier League since the beginning of last season. Mata has 12 goals, 12 assists, Oscar 5 goals and 5 assists). I am pretty sure Mata will still play a lot and if we are ever down in a game he will be one of the first subs brought on when he doesn't start, but Mourinho is a manager who cares a lot about defensive responsibility and balance so Mata loses out. (and I think Chelsea and football as a whole is a lot less interesting without Mata playing regularly)

Yes, it's all about the defense; it does win titles btw (while offense sells tickets and shirts). For me, and I reckon Mourinho too, the bold dilemma above is no dilemma at all.

I'm very aware of Mata's numbers. It is my belief, however, that 2 Matas are already 2 too many (Hazard being the other one). Same reasoning why you would not play with 3 or 4 players with Mata characteristics, or play a player like that as CM. It's just that at certain level these details do matter and I think that's exactly where Mourinho excels: handling the finer details of top top level sides.

[Barbara 15,149]

It makes no sense imo to compare Oscar's first season in Europe - in English football nonetheless - to Mata's second and consolidating season with us after having spent his whole life playing in Spain. no sense at all.

[Sidzeret 2,257]

  On 13/09/2013 at 18:38, Barbara said:

It makes no sense imo to compare Oscar's first season in Europe - in English football nonetheless - to Mata's second and consolidating season with us after having spent his whole life playing in Spain. no sense at all.

It's gonna be rather complicated when it comes to Willian- having played in Russia and Ukraine

[TorontoChelsea 4,064]

  On 13/09/2013 at 17:56, Robguima said:

Yes, it's all about the defense; it does win titles btw (while offense sells tickets and shirts). For me, and I reckon Mourinho too, the bold dilemma above is no dilemma at all.

I'm very aware of Mata's numbers. It is my belief, however, that 2 Matas are already 2 too many (Hazard being the other one). Same reasoning why you would not play with 3 or 4 players with Mata characteristics, or play a player like that as CM. It's just that at certain level these details do matter and I think that's exactly where Mourinho excels: handling the finer details of top top level sides.

I hate this myth but it never seems to die. Defense doesn't win titles (also a myth in the NFL, but never mind that here). Money and talent wins titles and overall offense, not defense is a recently a much better correlation with winning titles. You could say offense wins titles and be accurate (or even better "goal differential) you couldn't say the same about defense..

Last 4 years in EPL Winner's rank in scoring and goals allowed

2012-2013- 1st, 5th

2011-2012-1st, 1st

2010-2011-1st, 3rd

2009-2010-1st, 2nd

Anyway, Mata and Hazard are very different players IMO Hazard is much more suited to play the wing and has shown more defensive responsibility than Mata is capable of but, like 99.9% of players in the world, lacks the offensive vision Mata has. (Not saying his isn't good, it is, but Mata's is sublime.) Hazard also uses his speed to try to beat and dribbles past players whereas Mata uses more his quickness to maneuver into space to create for himself and others and isn't really a big dribbler. Hazard is at home cutting in off the wing on his favoured right foot. Mata isn't that sort of player at all. In fact, I am not sure really what characteristics they have in common as players and what's making you say that they are basically the same player is baffling to me because they have almost nothing in common other than that neither is particularly good defensively and they are gifted offensively (and they play for Chelsea). Hazard has more in common with Schurrle and probably Willian than with Mata.

@Barbara-that's not the comparison (about how Oscar will develop). The comparison is between players right now and right now Mata is a vastly superior offensive player to Oscar and a vastly inferior defensive one.

[Barbara 15,149]

  On 13/09/2013 at 20:00, Sidzeret said:

It's gonna be rather complicated when it comes to Willian- having played in Russia and Ukraine

I only meant comparing the assists + goals stats comparison. Comparing a 21yo, first season in Europe in the league that differs the most from Brazilian to a 25yo guy fully adapted to the style and who had played in Europe since he plays football, is the part I disagree with.

  On 13/09/2013 at 20:08, TorontoChelsea said:

I hate this myth but it never seems to die. Defense doesn't win titles (also a myth in the NFL, but never mind that here). Money and talent wins titles and overall offense, not defense is a recently a much better correlation with winning titles. You could say offense wins titles and be accurate (or even better "goal differential) you couldn't say the same about defense..

Last 4 years in EPL Winner's rank in scoring and goals allowed

2012-2013- 1st, 5th

2011-2012-1st, 1st

2010-2011-1st, 3rd

2009-2010-1st, 2nd

Anyway, Mata and Hazard are very different players IMO Hazard is much more suited to play the wing and has shown more defensive responsibility than Mata is capable of but, like 99.9% of players in the world, lacks the offensive vision Mata has. (Not saying his isn't good, it is, but Mata's is sublime.) Hazard also uses his speed to try to beat and dribbles past players whereas Mata uses more his quickness to maneuver into space to create for himself and others and isn't really a big dribbler. Hazard is at home cutting in off the wing on his favoured right foot. Mata isn't that sort of player at all. In fact, I am not sure really what characteristics they have in common as players and what's making you say that they are basically the same player is baffling to me because they have almost nothing in common other than that neither is particularly good defensively and they are gifted offensively (and they play for Chelsea). Hazard has more in common with Schurrle and probably Willian than with Mata.

@Barbara-that's not the comparison (about how Oscar will develop). The comparison is between players right now and right now Mata is a vastly superior offensive player to Oscar and a vastly inferior defensive one.

That not only I accept, but I also agree. I just meant using the amount of goals and assists they had last season to backup that argument. That isn't fair imo. Also isn't only defensively that Mata is clearly inferior. Tactically as well.

I think Oscar will develop into a better CAM than Mata is, but I think he won't be a better #10. That's where the argument starts and ends in Mourinho's head. He doesn't necessarily wants the best #10 in his formation, but the best CAM. Another manager would rather have the best #10 than the best CAM.

I don't think Oscar will ever be as creative as Mata. I believe that creativity in football is more an inherent gift than something the manager can teach and improve with his guidance. One thing though I'm absolutely sure: he'll score much more goals than the 12 Mata did and maybe more than Mata can ever score (as I think Mata will also grow in that department - and with both growing I can't say who will end up being the best scorer, I just know Oscar will do better than 12 and maybe better than Mata's best).

This isn't even about defensive x offensive football - that I agree with you btw, defensive footie doesn't equal to success. As much as offensive doesn't either. Normally are the most balanced teams that end at the top of the tables. Everyone used to go on and on about how creative and lethal Barça was between 2008-11, but that team had one of the best defenses I've seen in football. they were very solid. Real Madrid problem before Mou wasn't only about the tactics that would work in the team offensively, but also their defense being a liability.

When I say Oscar is going to be a better CAM than Mata I take into consideration everything that is to be considered for the position: work rate, creativity, pace, acceleration, dribbling, tackling, goals scored, assists offered, physicality, vision, intelligence, tactical obedience, decision making, ability to slow down the game as well as speed it up. Oscar is already better than Mata in some of those, will be better than him in a couple more this season already and may be better in another couple as years pass. There are a few of them though he'll never be better than Mata. And that's why I don't like to compare players in general. They have different traits and those traits lead them to have different roles. It's pointless in my opinion because what counts is what works better for the team. Unless we have 10 players that make up for one, like RM makes up for Cris defensively and tactically (partially - as some tactics he can work with).

I'll give you one more thing: the two matches we drew this season weren't matches for Mata imo (we could probably lose to Bayern, for example). The one we won and he didn't play, I don't think we miss him at all - the first half against Hull was the best football Chelsea played in years in my opinion. The one we won and he played he didn't make much a difference - but I think saying that isn't fair to him because he was clearly unfit. So saying he'd be a liability against Bayern, wouldn't make difference against Manchester and wasn't missed against Hull sort of answers some questions. Also, obviously I'm talking about hypotheses here. He could have won us the ManUtd match... or he couldn't have been a liability against Bayern. It's our matches in CL last season against teams that played closer to Bayern (attacked minded, with a good midfield, moving up in blocks), but still not quite like Bayern that make me think that not only he wouldn't make a difference in the attack - because honestly we didn't have an attack problem against Bayern - and most likely would have been a liability defensively.

[Jase 43,479]

http://www1.skysports.com/watch/video/sports/football/8919999/mata-i%27ll-fight-for-my-place

Mata's interview on Sky Sports where loads of different questions were asked ranging from about our form, facing Everton, on Roberto Martinez, the Spanish players in PL, new players at the club, competition for places, summer transfer rumours about him leaving, on Lampard, Lukaku etc.