🇪🇸 Juan Mata

[hjperdeath 2,226]

Well since you haven't seen him play, then I won't read the above. Cheers.

[Tomo 21,751]

http://www.redcafe.net/threads/juan-mata-2014-2015-performances.394002/page-2

Some absolute beauts on there.

I missed it, but my friend said that it was Mata that was chasing Ki for the first goal and then just stopped. Poor if true - was below par today.

It wasn't until Gerrard gave him a head start and caught in that game in the US that I realized how slow Mata is, and in this system the game is just passing him by way too often, he can't seem to make any space for himself.

He is so slow, didn't have any impact. Is it just a fitness issue?

Poor display from Mata. Really needs to offer a lot more than he did. Noticeable how little effort he puts in off the ball compared to the others

But but but, attacking midfielders shouldn't have to do any defensive work

[CHOULO19 24,332]

As I said, you might be right about Kagawa. I've barely seen him play for Dortmund as I don't watch the Bundesliga,

Then what are you even arguing about?

Judging Kagawa based solely on his time at united is like judging Juan based on the first half of last season under Jose only.

[Tomo 21,751]

Mata has more than one season to prove his worth. During his time here he's worked with 4 managers and he was the top star while playing for the first 3 of them. He was given freedom by RDM and Rafa and his creative prowess produced lots of goals and assists and no wonder he was picked as Chelsea's player of the season for two consecutive seasons.

I don't get why is he blamed for our tactical inadequacy back then as probably him at attacking free role (and later Hazard and Oscar) was our best way to go at the time, given all the circumstances. Also we had much bigger problems like the one in defense and midfield. Remembering AVB's high defensive line with JT (who is not exactly blessed with pace) and David Luiz (who was running around the pitch like a headless chicken) still gives me a headache.

I never buy the excuse of someone not being able to "fit the system". Everytime a new manager comes he has his own set of requirements so the players need to be adaptive and work hard in order to do what is asked of them. Mata's inability to press and his poor work off the ball have been ever present since he joined us in 2011. However, back then the focus was on his creativity as he was excused of his defensive duties. When Jose came he was fully aware of those flaws and he instantly gave his spot to Oscar who is a better tackler, but probably two times less creative. Sure Mata's poor form at the time didn't help his case, but he clearly didn't play as much as he needed to. Ultimately he was the one who decided to go rather than stay, work through his weaknesses and earn Jose's trust. Ironically he'd have a great opportunity to do that considering how useless has Oscar been after January. Afterwards I didn't see a lot of him, but after a slow start for United he picked up some form and scored 6 goals and it's probably fair to say he did okay, despite not being played CAM.

As for Kagawa people seem to build their opinion of him as a player on his single good season with Dortmund. You could be right that he's being misused, but either way he's a big flop. He still should have had many strong games and the only one I can think of is the one against Norwich in the spring of 2013 when he scored a hat-trick.

When he first came in England he was compared with Hazard which proved to be more laughable by the day. Eden is not the best presser, he's not always tracking back and that's why Jose said he wants more from him when the Belgian received his Chelsea POTY award 3 months ago. But I don't think anyone here would consider comparing our best player to Kagawa.

As I said, you might be right about Kagawa. I've barely seen him play for Dortmund as I don't watch the Bundesliga, but still the only argument in his favour seems to be his time in Dortmund, which is simply not good enough to compare him with the likes of Mata.

The thing is, our 11/12 team were so crap that no one really cared about any defiency Mata had because he (along with Danny and Rami) were the only ones performing anywhere close to consistently, we were in a beggers can't be choosers moment as a club.

Not many complained about Ramires lack of technical ability in 11/12, why? Because despite that he was light years ahead of the alternatives, now there is quality alternatives for him, he gets more complaints. Similar as to why Mata's lack of workrate and off the ball game got mentioned more when we had quality depth in attacking midfield and not Anelkalouda waiting if Juan couldn't play.

Also RDM didn't build the team around him, he had Mazacar interchanging, Benitez came in and had to get us top 3, so he did what was best in the short term, build the team around Mata (Hazard and Oscar were young in there first season, so it wouldn't have been fair to put that pressure on then) with the bus firmly parked in behind him.

Benitez likes his teams to be solid and tough to beat, if he got the full time gig there's every chance he might have dropped Juan to.

[different level 1,056]

Then what are you even arguing about?

Judging Kagawa based solely on his time at united is like judging Juan based on the first half of last season under Jose only.

Have we seen Mata playing under Jose for two years?

Kagawa has 4 full seasons in European football, two of which in Man Utd under two different managers (not counting Giggs).

Your comparison has nothing to do with reality.

[CHOULO19 24,332]

Have we seen Mata playing under Jose for two years?

Kagawa has 4 full seasons in European football, two of which in Man Utd under two different managers (not counting Giggs).

Your comparison has nothing to do with reality.

Doesn't matter for how long, the point is in both cases they are grossly misused in a system that does not fit them. Doesn't matter if for 5 months or 5 years. Just like you refer to Mata's first two season here when talking about his ability, you should talk about Kagawa's time at Dortmund when comparing with him. Being in a team that plays a system that does not suite cannot take away from he's already shown his capable of.

[different level 1,056]

Doesn't matter for how long, the point is in both cases they are grossly misused in a system that does not fit them. Doesn't matter if for 5 months or 5 years. Just like you refer to Mata's first two season here when talking about his ability, you should talk about Kagawa's time at Dortmund when comparing with him. Being in a team that plays a system that does not suite cannot take away from he's already shown his capable of.

It's not the same thing at all.

Mata's had this kind of problem with only one manager for so many years of European football. With Kagawa it goes with Ferguson, Moysey and by the looks of it LVG is not very fond of him either. Moreover the only manager who used Kagawa "the right way" was Klopp.

Sounds to me like too many excuses are thrown in his favour.

[CHOULO19 24,332]

It's not the same thing at all.

Mata's had this kind of problem with only one manager for so many years of European football. With Kagawa it goes with Ferguson, Moysey and by the looks of it LVG is not very fond of him either. Moreover the only manager who used Kagawa "the right way" was Klopp.

Sounds to me like too many excuses are thrown in his favour.

I'm not going into that discussion because it's besides the point. Kagawa, like Mata, have already showed how good they can be. You can't take away what they have already showed/achieved.

[hjperdeath 2,226]

LVG's played one official game and Kagawa is out of favor. The lengths one can go to put down a player they have never seen play...

[different level 1,056]

One good season in a weak league two years ago and Kagawa is a top player...

[Tomo 21,751]

One good season in a weak league two years ago and Kagawa is a top player...

A weak league?

[The_Flash 1,144]

Kagawa isn't too bad but really hasn't been given a chance at Utd quite a few people been wasted there.

[Myself 793]

One good season in a weak league two years ago and Kagawa is a top player...

Ignorance at its finest.

Is Champions League weak too? And France? And Italy? And Spain? England is the only nation with a strong league, it seems.

[different level 1,056]

A weak league?

Weaker was the right word. Back then Bundesliga was still behind Serie A, I think.

[hjperdeath 2,226]

Weaker was the right word. Back then Bundesliga was still behind Serie A, I think.

You really should atleast try to research a bit you know. 2010/11 Dortmund finished as champions, Leverkusen came second and Bayern came 3rd. 2011/12 Dortmund champions again, Bayern came second and Schalke 3rd. You have confused lack of proper televising, with weaker. If anything, Bundesliga is more weaker last season with the dominance and poaching of a singular team.

[different level 1,056]

You really should atleast try to research a bit you know. 2010/11 Dortmund finished as champions, Leverkusen came second and Bayern came 3rd. 2011/12 Dortmund champions again, Bayern came second and Schalke 3rd. You have confused lack of proper televising, with weaker. If anything, Bundesliga is more weaker last season with the dominance and poaching of a singular team.

Depends on the way you choose to look at things. While in those two seasons the league was closer in terms of competition that doesn't necessarily mean it was stronger. In 2011/12 as a reigning champions Dortmund had a pretty poor CL campaign, while Bayern were definitely not as as good as they were the year after and last season, despite reaching the final of the competition. But even today you'd struggle to find any other half decent team in the league that can give a match to Bayern and Dortmund (to a certain extent, because they've also struggled in the league last season.)

[hjperdeath 2,226]

Depends on the way you choose to look at things. While in those two seasons the league was closer in terms of competition that doesn't necessarily mean it was stronger. In 2011/12 as a reigning champions Dortmund had a pretty poor CL campaign, while Bayern were definitely not as as good as they were the year after and last season, despite reaching the final of the competition. But even today you'd struggle to find any other half decent team in the league that can give a match to Bayern and Dortmund (to a certain extent, because they've also struggled in the league last season.)

if you are talking in terms of Europe then 2011/12 was also a poor campaign for English Premier League teams even if Chelsea parked the bus all the way to the title. United got knocked out of the CL and then lowly Bilbao in Europa. City got knocked out of the CL as well and then Sporting in Europa. That didn't make the league week for that season. Just performances or individual strength does not characterize a league as weaker than the other. That's like taking the high ground without considering all the points.

[different level 1,056]

if you are talking in terms of Europe then 2011/12 was also a poor campaign for English Premier League teams even if Chelsea parked the bus all the way to the title. United got knocked out of the CL and then lowly Bilbao in Europa. City got knocked out of the CL as well and then Sporting in Europa. That didn't make the league week for that season. Just performances or individual strength does not characterize a league as weaker than the other. That's like taking the high ground without considering all the points.

My point was not to concentrate on the European performances of German and English teams in that season alone and use that to draw a comparison between the EPL and the Bundesliga. The idea was to see the performances of the only viable German teams in Europe both on pitch and in terms of results and compare that to the following two years. I agree that doesn't show the entire picture, but if you see the Bundesliga as a superior to the EPL, you have your right to believe what you want. Also, It's pretty sad what you think of Chelsea's greatest ever achievement...

[hjperdeath 2,226]

I agree that doesn't show the entire picture, but if you see the Bundesliga as a superior to the EPL, you have your right to believe what you want. Also, It's pretty sad what you think of Chelsea's greatest ever achievement...

No one ever said that. Stop putting words in people's mouth. Fact is EPL is the greatest league out there. That's not even debatable. Bundesliga certainly does come behind it but. That does not make it a weak league. and yes, I have a right to believe in what I actually see.

Pretty sad? it's the truth. Truth you have to be proud of. We pulled off one of the best defensive campaigns Europe has seen. There's nothing to be sad about pulling something off that historic.

[BlueLyon 9,359]

This thread is perfect evidence that forum is full of disrespectful cunts. How can you demand loyalty and respect from (ex) players to the fans then, if you cant do it vice-versa, irony.

Mata is great person who helped us in one of darkest times at Chelsea in recent history, its ridiculous how people want him to do bad and say that he is ''average'' at best.

Mata never said single bad thing about Chelsea, if anything you should say him good luck and move on, focus on our club and our future.