Oscar

[lionsden 4,689]

Not sure how any of this addresses your smugness and "I told you so" attitude for saying the same thing for years, but bravo for changing the topic. :tophat:

I agree with everything you said there, btw. I understand why people aren't happy with him as a CFC player at the present time.

Yer looking back Perhaps it wasn't matured of me to do that.

[Chelsea Legend 11 4,062]

Why include any valuations? CFC is a rich club and can spend big on a player, and as one of the best clubs in the world they have every right to aim for world class at every position.

We had larger problems than the 10' position before, but now that muscle and creativity in the middle together with a real striker is more than taken care off, we can start looking at other positions and try to improve them. Its not like Oscar hasnt had a chance to show off his skills.

You want a better no10? Well, we can start with exploring how good Willian is there. He sure is quicker, and that matters a lot in our system. We also know that he is at least as good defensively. Do you want to look outside the club? There is Firmino who is at Oscar's age, as good defensively but adds more forward. If he was only a bit quicker he would be a dream signing.

The easy answer is we have to spend before we buy. It's been the club policy for a while now. So when you can find a replacement for Oscar in the price range of his valuation then we can start talking about who is a better fit.

And what team in the world has world class players in every position? Real Madrid? What kind of money can they spend? Can we compete with that? I don't even think they have world class players in every position.

I don't mind Willian in the 10... Not sure he would provide the same sort of offensive production Oscar has, not sure he will win as many tackles either.

I have a feeling you'd have a problem with a no.10 who can't complete 75% of his passes. If Oscar is terrible, like some of you are suggesting, Firmino is horrific.

[Viper22 2,418]

The easy answer is we have to spend before we buy. It's been the club policy for a while now. So when you can find a replacement for Oscar in the price range of his valuation then we can start talking about who is a better fit.

And what team in the world has world class players in every position? Real Madrid? What kind of money can they spend? Can we compete with that? I don't even think they have world class players in every position.

I don't mind Willian in the 10... Not sure he would provide the same sort of offensive production Oscar has, not sure he will win as many tackles either.

I have a feeling you'd have a problem with a no.10 who can't complete 75% of his passes. If Oscar is terrible, like some of you are suggesting, Firmino is horrific.

This is the key thing IMO.

Yes, Oscar isn't the greatest in the world. But what no.10s around are realistically gettable and definitely better than him? Especially when you consider he's still youngish (23 means he's likely still yet to peak).

Unless Real continue their mental attempts to buy a WC AM every damn transfer window and decide to ship out Isco (who is just amazing) then I just can't think of anyone.

The only other thing would be to shift Cesc forwards into the no.10 role and buy another CM (Pogba or Koke?) but i'm still not convinced that Cesc is as good in that role as I think he's often marked too tightly to make as much of an impact.

For now, I'm happy to persist with Oscar and hope he develops his game a bit more (especially his passing accuracy, his consistency and general creativity on the ball). Hopefully Mou can help him out there.

[Beigl 1,387]

It always baffles me that even when Oscar has an inconsistent run of performances, which is quite often, Mou doesn't consider to bring instead Willian in his number 10 position.

[CurlyHairLikeLuiz 1,625]

tbh, i think it's more due to him being fatigued and rumor is that he was playing through a quad injury - if that were me, I'd probably take it easy too.

Let's face it, Oscar has never been creative, and that's why we struggle when Ramires is in the team. When Cesc is playing, Oscar generally presses more into the box with Diego than trying to create from outside it.

Having said that, it's clear he is still developing and that's okay - Not everybody develops like Hazard. I think at this point in time Willian would probably be a better alternative due to all round better ball control.

[Pacquiao 1,834]

A bit inconsistent? Really? Oscar is 24 this year, people really need to stop looking at him as some sort of young player, like a Zouma or Ake for example.

Improved a lot in what aspects of his game please? List them off for me.

23 is still young, and his inconsistencies come from being fatigued.

As for his improvments, its sad that you need them to be listed, He has improved his finishing, his creativity, he has improved his pressing game, his freekicks, his intelligence and tactial awareness is through the roof for someone so young also. He is a seriously exceptional talent, and its laughable how not being in form means your not good enough to some on here.

as you can see his contribution to the team is undeniable, its frankly embarrasng to critisize a player just for having some bad games even though the player has contributed massively to the team doing so well this season.

[Rom2013 446]

We already have at least 1 number 10 better than Oscar, in this case Cesc. THe problem of playing Cesc in the number 10 position it's not that he is worst than Oscar, the problem is that if he plays as a number 10 he can't play in the pivot and we are better with him in the pivot. It has nothing to do with Oscar.

The number 10 doens't need to be increadible defensively, just needs to do what Isco does for Madrid, Di Maria did for Madrid with Ancelotti, Ozil did for Mourinho, WIllian and Oscar do in CHelsea, Reus also, Koke, etc. What any modern number 10 or AM do.. and there are a lot of examples of that.

Oscar did 3 tackles last game... the goal was also his fault, and he was dribbled before that in the same way by the spanish player.The number of tackles for Oscar it's the same story of the number of dribbles of Hazard... normally useless.

There is no possible excuse for Oscar, He is young but at this age there are other payers in the League playing better and growing a lot more, I don't understand how a player that played until now something like 2300 minutes is tired in January... Matic played 600 more minutes (more 6 or 7 complete games) and he is not tired or at least he doesn't seem to be.

Oscar can't do basic things that any number 10 should, like protect the ball, do good passes, control the game... he can't... and without it he never will be good enough.

Oscar will be on the bench again in this second part of the season.

[Jase 43,479]

[GodZola 630]

Compelling arguments for & against, its a difficult one cus I can see the reasoning behind jose selecting him but on the other hand his form doesn't warrant him being picked. Thing is José has his arms locked at the mo with Fabregas injured & Costa suspended so Oscar's inclusion is possibly more down to his hands being forced.

Personally don't believe he's a 10 but he certainly not without talent either, I've always felt he would be better playing in a deeper role in midfield where he can use his energy breaking up play, covering & with Matic about he can also break into the box like lamps use too, he hasn't got the ability of Fabregas or Hazard so imo unless it dictates he shouldn't be played in an advance role.

People are asking for a 10, well we already have one that plays out wide in Hazard, I would love to see him in a more central role running at defenders using his vision & having Costa pulling defenders all over the pitch and making runs it could open up a lot of spaces, especially against bus teams.

[remains of the day 564]

A lot of the comments on here proposing that we bring in a better number 10 I think are taking certain things for granted. With Cesc in the side, the player in the number 10 has to poses more than just the ability to pull off neat little through balls. The main creators in this team are Cesc and Hazard, while Iva this season has been contributing a lot to our attacking play, but for the most part everything goes through Cesc and Hazard. These players are given free reign, maybe not so much positionally but on the ball their given a lot of liberties in the sense that their free to do risky things that Oscar (or Willian) would be reluctant to do. Hazard's turnover stats are very high because his role requires him to be adventurous on the ball, so he can lose possession frequently (and he does) without reproach. Cesc too is very offensive, more so than a lot of deep-lying midfielders.

My view (and this might be debatable) is that a team can't accommodate a 3rd playmaker. That kind of thing might work in certain leagues or in fifa, but in the premier league it'll create an imbalanced side. Take a look at Real Madrid as an example, the midfield of Modric, Kroos and James Rodriquez really struggled in the beginning. Yes eventually they built a better understanding and became somewhat solid but it took a toll on Modric's offensive game to the point that it was basically non-existent. He was essentially playing as a defensive midfielder with little attacking contribution. Another example off the top of my head is Nasri when he made the move to City. For the longest time, a point of discussion among City fans was "why can't Nasri and Silva play well together?" Toure and Silva are basically City's main creators and in my opinion it had a knock on effect Nasri's attacking contribution. He went from something like 10 goals in 30 games playing at Arsenal to about 5 goals in 30 or some games (don't quote me on this). A team simply can't accommodate or maintain balance with three midfielders all trying to do something adventurous, risky and audacious each time they touch the ball.

As long as Cesc and Hazard are the team's main offensive threat, any playmaker, particularly one that's young and still developing as a player, will struggle to make an impact. So with Cesc and Hazard in the side, other qualities then becomes more important. Qualities like tactical nous is exponentially crucial. At the same time, you need the player in that position to have a good understanding and can act as a link between Cesc and Hazard and if he can do all of this while still chipping in with goals, then all the better --- think of Muller's role under Heynckes' Bayern. That's basically what the no. 10 position in this formation and system we play calls for. It's the most tactical position, in terms of balance, and I think too many people take it for granted.

This is the key thing IMO.

Yes, Oscar isn't the greatest in the world. But what no.10s around are realistically gettable and definitely better than him? Especially when you consider he's still youngish (23 means he's likely still yet to peak).

Unless Real continue their mental attempts to buy a WC AM every damn transfer window and decide to ship out Isco (who is just amazing) then I just can't think of anyone.

The only other thing would be to shift Cesc forwards into the no.10 role and buy another CM (Pogba or Koke?) but i'm still not convinced that Cesc is as good in that role as I think he's often marked too tightly to make as much of an impact.

For now, I'm happy to persist with Oscar and hope he develops his game a bit more (especially his passing accuracy, his consistency and general creativity on the ball). Hopefully Mou can help him out there.

Re: the bolded point. That's exactly what I think we should do - put Cesc in the no 10 and bring in a B2B midfielder to play alongside Matic but it just seems unfair to move Cesc from his preferred position. He's spoken many times about enjoying playing his football here partly because he's an important player and he's playing in his best position. He obviously sees himself as a CM, seems unfair to play him in the 10, I dunno.

[Belgiannutt 3,201]

23 is still young, and his inconsistencies come from being fatigued.

As for his improvments, its sad that you need them to be listed, He has improved his finishing, his creativity, he has improved his pressing game, his freekicks, his intelligence and tactial awareness is through the roof for someone so young also. He is a seriously exceptional talent, and its laughable how not being in form means your not good enough to some on here.

as you can see his contribution to the team is undeniable, its frankly embarrasng to critisize a player just for having some bad games even though the player has contributed massively to the team doing so well this season.

He hasn't been in form for half of his Chelsea career...

Also enough with the "fatigue" excuse. It has been used too much to camouflage Oscar's poor performances in the past.

First season he was "fatigued" because of the olympics.

Second season he was fatigued due to the confed cup and then went awol after three months due to the World Cup being on his mind.

Now this season he's again fatigued ? Even though Ivanovic, Terry, Hazard, Fabregas, Matic and Cahill have all played more minutes then Oscar.

The excuses have to stop.

6 goals and 7 assists is a really good return but those numbers aren't good enough to ignore his actual performances on the pitch and his performances on the pitch aren't good enough for a team like Chelsea.

He's still as inconsistent now as he was in his first season here. That's just unacceptable.

[Chelsea Legend 11 4,062]

To suggest Oscar hasn't improve under Jose Mourinho is laughable. What have you guys been watching the last 2-3yrs?

Tactical awareness

Finishing

Strength

Composure

[Oscar 441]

He hasn't been in form for half of his Chelsea career...

Also enough with the "fatigue" excuse. It has been used too much to camouflage Oscar's poor performances in the past.

First season he was "fatigued" because of the olympics.

Second season he was fatigued due to the confed cup and then went awol after three months due to the World Cup being on his mind.

Now this season he's again fatigued ? Even though Ivanovic, Terry, Hazard, Fabregas, Matic and Cahill have all played more minutes then Oscar.

The excuses have to stop.

6 goals and 7 assists is a really good return but those numbers aren't good enough to ignore his actual performances on the pitch and his performances on the pitch aren't good enough for a team like Chelsea.

He's still as inconsistent now as he was in his first season here. That's just unacceptable.

Laughable. His performances doesn't warrant a place on Chelsea, with that I guess Hazard should be dropped from belgium for playing like shit on the national team.

[RoyalBlues 4,050]

Now this season he's again fatigued ?

Well actually last year he is involved in WC massively, so yes if you want to find any 'reason', that must be one of it.

[GodZola 630]

A lot of the comments on here proposing that we bring in a better number 10 I think are taking certain things for granted. With Cesc in the side, the player in the number 10 has to poses more than just the ability to pull off neat little through balls. The main creators in this team are Cesc and Hazard, while Iva this season has been contributing a lot to our attacking play, but for the most part everything goes through Cesc and Hazard. These players are given free reign, maybe not so much positionally but on the ball their given a lot of liberties in the sense that their free to do risky things that Oscar (or Willian) would be reluctant to do. Hazard's turnover stats are very high because his role requires him to be adventurous on the ball, so he can lose possession frequently (and he does) without reproach. Cesc too is very offensive, more so than a lot of deep-lying midfielders.

My view (and this might be debatable) is that a team can't accommodate a 3rd playmaker. That kind of thing might work in certain leagues or in fifa, but in the premier league it'll create an imbalanced side. Take a look at Real Madrid as an example, the midfield of Modric, Kroos and James Rodriquez really struggled in the beginning. Yes eventually they built a better understanding and became somewhat solid but it took a toll on Modric's offensive game to the point that it was basically non-existent. He was essentially playing as a defensive midfielder with little attacking contribution. Another example off the top of my head is Nasri when he made the move to City. For the longest time, a point of discussion among City fans was "why can't Nasri and Silva play well together?" Toure and Silva are basically City's main creators and in my opinion it had a knock on effect Nasri's attacking contribution. He went from something like 10 goals in 30 games playing at Arsenal to about 5 goals in 30 or some games (don't quote me on this). A team simply can't accommodate or maintain balance with three midfielders all trying to do something adventurous, risky and audacious each time they touch the ball.

As long as Cesc and Hazard are the team's main offensive threat, any playmaker, particularly one that's young and still developing as a player, will struggle to make an impact. So with Cesc and Hazard in the side, other qualities then becomes more important. Qualities like tactical nous is exponentially crucial. At the same time, you need the player in that position to have a good understanding and can act as a link between Cesc and Hazard and if he can do all of this while still chipping in with goals, then all the better --- think of Muller's role under Heynckes' Bayern. That's basically what the no. 10 position in this formation and system we play calls for. It's the most tactical position, in terms of balance, and I think too many people take it for granted.

Re: the bolded point. That's exactly what I think we should do - put Cesc in the no 10 and bring in a B2B midfielder to play alongside Matic but it just seems unfair to move Cesc from his preferred position. He's spoken many times about enjoying playing his football here partly because he's an important player and he's playing in his best position. He obviously sees himself as a CM, seems unfair to play him in the 10, I dunno.

Not sure if your post included me but I certainly wasn't specifying a third playmaker against offensive sides.

However I think there is nothing wrong with it against defensively minded teams, in fact I would encourage it, too many times we struggle to break down sides like this that just sit & hope for a break away or set piece goal when we have 4 defenders on the pitch & 1 or 2 holding midfielders doing nothing when we can select a far more attacking team that can open these teams up with more creative players on the pitch, get the game won & then make some defensive changes.

[Belgiannutt 3,201]

Laughable. His performances doesn't warrant a place on Chelsea, with that I guess Hazard should be dropped from belgium for playing like shit on the national team.

Completely different situation. We're talking about Chelsea here not the national team.

and Hazard is miles ahead of Oscar in terms of ability and consistency, not to mention that he doesn't disappear against the big teams.

[Oscar 441]

Completely different situation. We're talking about Chelsea here not the national team.

and Hazard is miles ahead of Oscar in terms of ability and consistency, not to mention that he doesn't disappear against the big teams.

For belgium, hazard is not consistent and was invisible every game in the world cup besides 2 mins of glory...

You can blame the manager, but , the same can be same with Jose and Oscar and tactics...

[Belgiannutt 3,201]

For belgium, hazard is not consistent and was invisible every game in the world cup besides 2 mins of glory...

You can blame the manager, but , the same can be same with Jose and Oscar and tactics...

Belgiannutt, on 09 Feb 2015 - 9:56 PM, said:

Completely different situation. We're talking about Chelsea here not the national team.