Oscar

[Oscar 441]

Belgiannutt, on 09 Feb 2015 - 9:56 PM, said:

Completely different situation. We're talking about Chelsea here not the national team.

AND

[Rekin 835]

The easy answer is we have to spend before we buy. It's been the club policy for a while now. So when you can find a replacement for Oscar in the price range of his valuation then we can start talking about who is a better fit.

And what team in the world has world class players in every position? Real Madrid? What kind of money can they spend? Can we compete with that? I don't even think they have world class players in every position.

I don't mind Willian in the 10... Not sure he would provide the same sort of offensive production Oscar has, not sure he will win as many tackles either.

I have a feeling you'd have a problem with a no.10 who can't complete 75% of his passes. If Oscar is terrible, like some of you are suggesting, Firmino is horrific.

It isnt strictly true though. Chelsea benefit from selling when buying as every team, but they do have the finances to do the occasional standalone big purchase.

Barcelona, Munich & Real are some examples of arguably world class in almost every position. If we want to compete with them, we need to hold a similar standard.

I dont mind a 10 who has a lower pass success if those passes are more penetrating. We have Fabregas and Matic for safe passes (Fabregas master key passes too though), We could make good use of a player who attacks more directly (which the stats suggest he does).

[CurlyHairLikeLuiz 1,625]

It isnt strictly true though. Chelsea benefit from selling when buying as every team, but they do have the finances to do the occasional standalone big purchase.

Barcelona, Munich & Real are some examples of arguably world class in almost every position. If we want to compete with them, we need to hold a similar standard.

I dont mind a 10 who has a lower pass success if those passes are more penetrating. We have Fabregas and Matic for safe passes (Fabregas master key passes too though), We could make good use of a player who attacks more directly (which the stats suggest he does).

You mean like Thorgan?

[The Skipper 20,593]

To suggest Oscar hasn't improve under Jose Mourinho is laughable. What have you guys been watching the last 2-3yrs?

Tactical awareness

Finishing

Strength

Composure

All things he was pretty good at already. The attributes we were hoping that he'd improve on (creativity, passing/vision, consistency) have not whatsoever over the last three years. Things he really needed to to become a bonafide world class player.

Even those attributes you've mentioned - he isn't world class in any of them.

[Chelsea Legend 11 4,062]

All things he was pretty good at already. The attributes we were hoping that he'd improve on (creativity, passing/vision, consistency) have not whatsoever over the last three years. Things he really needed to to become a bonafide world class player.

Even those attributes you've mentioned - he isn't world class in any of them.

Yes things he is good at and got better! Why is that not enough? (in my opinion he's gotten better at seeing passes too)

What is this fascination with being world class? You expect in the 2/3 years that we've had Oscar(who was bought young) under contract for his net worth to double if not triple? He wasn't purchased because he had world class potential! He was bought because he filled a tactical need in the squad. In what world can you get a world class player for under 20M???

Maybe the problem is you guys have set the bar much too high and can't appreciate the fact we have a tactically astute player who scores goals, assists, tackles, man marks and works extremely hard all for the low price of 19m....

Not saying he can't get better but man you guys are way off in terms of what the expected return should be.

[Chelsea Legend 11 4,062]

It isnt strictly true though. Chelsea benefit from selling when buying as every team, but they do have the finances to do the occasional standalone big purchase.

Barcelona, Munich & Real are some examples of arguably world class in almost every position. If we want to compete with them, we need to hold a similar standard.

I dont mind a 10 who has a lower pass success if those passes are more penetrating. We have Fabregas and Matic for safe passes (Fabregas master key passes too though), We could make good use of a player who attacks more directly (which the stats suggest he does).

Oh but it is! and you have no proof of the contrary. We have a 40,000 seater stadium, modest endorsements and FFP which states we can only spend what we make so Roman can't underwrite purchases anymore.

Barcelona

Pique

Mathieu

Alba

Rakitic

Bravo

Munich

Dante

Alonso

Alaba

Boateng

Madrid

Kroos

Pepe

Carvajal

Benzema

Casillas

If those players classify as world class to you its clear our definition of the term world class is in stark contrast.

I'd encourage you to watch Firmino play before you make some wild assertion that he makes penetrating passes.

This is Firmino...

[Rekin 835]

Oh but it is! and you have no proof of the contrary. We have a 40,000 seater stadium, modest endorsements and FFP which states we can only spend what we make so Roman can't underwrite purchases anymore.

Barcelona

Pique

Mathieu

Alba

Rakitic

Bravo

Munich

Dante

Alonso

Alaba

Boateng

Madrid

Kroos

Pepe

Carvajal

Benzema

Casillas

If those players classify as world class to you its clear our definition of the term world class is in stark contrast.

I'd encourage you to watch Firmino play before you make some wild assertion that he makes penetrating passes.

This is Firmino...

I tend to actually watch players for more than a few games before making comments about them. You showing me a youtube clip is not exactly gonna weigh more than what Ive seen many times.

In terms of the money I do not need to show you any proof, its not as if your arguments provide some key insight into the finances of the club or its state.

When it comes to the players you really need to be a bit more flexible when thinking.

There are players who recently were world class, who are about to become world class, or who are believed to be but have yet to earn that status. You rarely know who is world class before you actually see them in action for a prolonged time in a club. Many of those considered to be world beaters today struggled occasionally before reaching their current status.

A club cant instantly replace players who either didnt reach their believed potential, or who have started to decline. It is a process, just like it was for us when we first got a new midfield and striker. You need to prioritize changes.

Pique was considered to be among the best CB's in the world for several years, Rakitic is a brilliant player and Alba is very good too. Bravo is a fantastic goalkeeper as well.

As a matter of fact I seriously dont know if you are serious with some of those names. Alaba, Boateng, Kroos, Benzema, Pepe and Carvajal are extremely good players who belong to the top. I would love to see every single one of them in the club right now, except for Pepe who is on the decline.

[Barbara 15,149]

I'm going to ignore that personal remark.

Again I ask anyone, please list me the areas in Oscar's game where we've seen clear improvement over the last 3 seasons... I cannot see it personally.

I'm not going to ignore because I use(d) to have a lot of pleasure learning your always levelheaded and insightful opinions, I've learned many things with your thoughtful and deep posts about players, the sport, tactics. You told someone to 'shut up' the other day because you disagreed with them (or them with you), you got more aggressive towards people's opinion, you treat some opinions with some disdain, as if you're the only one right. Sorry, Thomas, but you didn't use to make those things and I'm not sure one should be proud of them. Not to say the moaning seems contagious in this forum...

You used to be very supportive of a lot of things that now you're being the opposite. It seems like you ran out of patience - either with the club, the manager or the forum itself, it's hard to tell. But that's the feeling that you lost your patience and now you're acting in a way I haven't ever seen before.

Yes, it was personal, but it wasn't an attack - there are many people here I don't care at all, but you I do and maybe you don't realize those things, many times we don't realize our own changes. You used a bad day as an excuse to telling someone to shut up, but you've been more aggressive in your answers and disdaining people's opinion in a way you didn't for a while now, it wasn't a complete isolated episode, And believe me, that has nothing to do with your opinion on Oscar.

Now if you and others think this is normal... well, I liked it better when you thought it wasn't, but it's your prerogative to think so.

I only said it because I care and because I used to have a great time reading your analysis and opinions. If I didn't care about you and your posts, I'd ignore it. Actually you're one of the few people I look forward to reading what you have to say at all instances. We've disagreed many times before, but something isn't the same anymore, maybe it's just my perception, but well, maybe it's not.

[Barbara 15,149]

Imagine someone who constantly berates a manager for refusing to show enough faith in young players, only for that person to vociferously brag about the fact that 2 & a half years ago he wrote off a 21 yr old making a big transition from the Brazilian league to English football. Imagine actually bragging about something like that. As if that's something to be proud of. As if that's something that should be lauded.

There are a few members on here who questioned whether Oscar was good enough to play in the 10 position, Skipper being one of them. Yet despite not being entirely convinced by Oscar's talent, Skipper still defended him on numerous occasions. That's what a football fan with strong principles of nurturing young players does. Regardless of whether they have doubts about the player's potential, they still show a willingness to support the player. A strong desire to see that player succeed at this club. You though never even gave Oscar a chance. You never gave him an ounce of support. A young Chelsea player making a huge step up in his career and you constantly berated him, rarely praised him when he was playing well and the most perverse thing is how you used every. single. poor performance as a victory of sorts and as an opportunity to further slam him. You sit there in front of your screen and give lip service to showing faith in young players but the truth is, you lionsden care more about being right than any larger commitment to youth.

For all your talk about the ills of modern football, you exemplify everything that's wrong with it. You're a walking parody of yourself - a parody that honestly isn't funny anymore.

THANK YOU

He isn't the only one, but especially him, seems like to take a GREAT PLEASURE being proved right even if it's something that is bad for Chelsea. It seems like is more important being right than having Chelsea succeed. That's crazy.

23 is still young, and his inconsistencies come from being fatigued.

As for his improvments, its sad that you need them to be listed, He has improved his finishing, his creativity, he has improved his pressing game, his freekicks, his intelligence and tactial awareness is through the roof for someone so young also. He is a seriously exceptional talent, and its laughable how not being in form means your not good enough to some on here.

as you can see his contribution to the team is undeniable, its frankly embarrasng to critisize a player just for having some bad games even though the player has contributed massively to the team doing so well this season.

I think you forgot the most significant imo - his link up play improved considerably compared to last season. He and Hazard have a better understanding of each other when they actually play close to each other (and I realized the more tired he gets, the less he comes closer to Hazard). He even developed a good understand with Cesc. People used to complain a lot last season that without Mata in the side, Hazard didn't have someone to play 1-2's, but Oscar improved on those, clearly imo, and he seems to be learning a few things from Cesc - who has all the tools to mentor him in a way that could make him our next #8 indeed. I've been really disappointed by Oscar in many things and I was very close of agreeing with others that maybe his ceiling wasn't much higher than now, but then he keeps showing glimpses of a new level and I felt he improved creatively and his chances created, assists, and linkup play with Cesc and Hazard shows it imo. I'm happy I haven't changed my opinion about him yet and I hope that I won't need to.

I can't ignore his age. Just because so many guys reached the heights of their careers at early age, it doesn't mean it became a rule. Some players still need a little time. A player aged 25 is still young and with the best years of his career ahead of him. I don't get the rush and I get even less people saying this is an excuse...

How come a 23yo player is expected to be the end product or close to it? Consistency is the biggest struggle in the transition from prospect and potential to reality. This is where he's been lacking and it could go one way or the the other and I really hope it goes to the better side of it.

[Chelsea Legend 11 4,062]

I tend to actually watch players for more than a few games before making comments about them. You showing me a youtube clip is not exactly gonna weigh more than what Ive seen many times.

In terms of the money I do not need to show you any proof, its not as if your arguments provide some key insight into the finances of the club or its state.

When it comes to the players you really need to be a bit more flexible when thinking.

There are players who recently were world class, who are about to become world class, or who are believed to be but have yet to earn that status. You rarely know who is world class before you actually see them in action for a prolonged time in a club. Many of those considered to be world beaters today struggled occasionally before reaching their current status.

A club cant instantly replace players who either didnt reach their believed potential, or who have started to decline. It is a process, just like it was for us when we first got a new midfield and striker. You need to prioritize changes.

Pique was considered to be among the best CB's in the world for several years, Rakitic is a brilliant player and Alba is very good too. Bravo is a fantastic goalkeeper as well.

As a matter of fact I seriously dont know if you are serious with some of those names. Alaba, Boateng, Kroos, Benzema, Pepe and Carvajal are extremely good players who belong to the top. I would love to see every single one of them in the club right now, except for Pepe who is on the decline.

Ya and I'm sure you watch loads of Hoffenheim games in your spare time

actually watched a few last year when we were linked with him in the summer. He's slow, can't pick a pass, looks uncoordinated when running and looks out of shape. If that is the type of player you think is gonna make Chelsea a better team than the one we we with Oscar... LOL!! The Premier league is by far the fastest pace competition in Europe, you put Firmino in Oscar's role and he will struggle mightily to keep up.

I have no idea what your middle rant is all about. You claim Chelsea are competing against teams who have world class players in every position, I don't agree with you at all. What Chelsea are doing is building a team in the philosophy of the managers style while still adhering to FFP, my proof of this is directly from what the club have publicly said and went out and done! We are looking to build a balanced team capable of playing and winning in any particular fashion. If you look at the purchases we've made none of them have broken the bank, in fact, we've made modest profits in the process.

Like I've said our opinion in World Class is in stark contrast. I do not believe Kroos, Boateng, Rakitic, Benzema, Pepe, Casillas, Carvajal, Pique are world class. You may convince me that Alaba is in and around there but it would take a serious debate. World class is not a title I throw around to anyone because they play for big teams.

[Victor Von Doom 258]

When he becomes a world class no. 10 & proves everyone wrong >

[Barbara 15,149]

When he becomes a world class no. 10 & proves everyone wrong >

why would he when some here expect, cheer, hope for him to fail? You'd think they were talking about a Liverpool or Arsenal player with their clear desire to see him flop.

[Rekin 835]

Ya and I'm sure you watch loads of Hoffenheim games in your spare time

actually watched a few last year when we were linked with him in the summer. He's slow, can't pick a pass, looks uncoordinated when running and looks out of shape. If that is the type of player you think is gonna make Chelsea a better team than the one we we with Oscar... LOL!! The Premier league is by far the fastest pace competition in Europe, you put Firmino in Oscar's role and he will struggle mightily to keep up.

I have no idea what your middle rant is all about. You claim Chelsea are competing against teams who have world class players in every position, I don't agree with you at all. What Chelsea are doing is building a team in the philosophy of the managers style while still adhering to FFP, my proof of this is directly from what the club have publicly said and went out and done! We are looking to build a balanced team capable of playing and winning in any particular fashion. If you look at the purchases we've made none of them have broken the bank, in fact, we've made modest profits in the process.

Like I've said our opinion in World Class is in stark contrast. I do not believe Kroos, Boateng, Rakitic, Benzema, Pepe, Casillas, Carvajal, Pique are world class. You may convince me that Alaba is in and around there but it would take a serious debate. World class is not a title I throw around to anyone because they play for big teams.

Whatever, that is all just your opinion which you have every right to have, but no real proof really of anything that should convince me of your standpoint.

I follow most of the big leagues, and I have a few on-the-side teams whose games I like to follow. I dont claim to follow Hoffenheim on a constant basis, but I did see roughly ten games or more last season, and two or three this one.

Yes, Firmino is the defensively strongest AMC in the world while also having excellent offensive stats, but lets pretend he is "un-coordinated" and "looks out of shape". Seriously, if thats the level of this debate then I really rather just leave it.

[Victor Von Doom 258]

why would he when some here expect, cheer, hope for him to fail? You'd think they were talking about a Liverpool or Arsenal player with their clear desire to see him flop.

Exactly, they expect him to and when he doesn't >

[Chelsea Legend 11 4,062]

Yes, Firmino is the defensively strongest AMC in the world while also having excellent offensive stats, but lets pretend he is "un-coordinated" and "looks out of shape". Seriously, if thats the level of this debate then I really rather just leave it.

So what is it about his game you like more than Oscar's? I admit to not knowing much about his game please tell me how a guy whose pass completion is worse than Oscar's by more than 10% is gonna improve our ACM? How is a guy that is obviously way slow gonna improve our counter? He does seem the type to get stuck in and seems to have decent technique but I can't for the life of me see how you think he displaces Oscar.

I'd say his first touch is pretty much on par with Oscar's wouldn't agree?

[dee25 1,044]

You could argue it's the same for people that are trying to defend Oscar... Same old arguments of:

1. He's young (laughable)

2. He's sacrificing himself to balance the team

3. He's got 6 goals and 7 assists

4. His pressing game is amazing (it's not when he's fatigued and off form)

5. No other number 10 or player can do what he does...

There are more but it goes both ways.

The thing is though skipper, every one of those arguments are infinitely more convincing that anything you or others criticizing Oscar have presented.

You say that he hasn't improved much in 3 years, that he won't ever be better than he is now, and that his general play isn't good enough for the standards of this club but whether you choose to accept it or not, the numbers do show a clear progression in terms of creativity so he has improved significantly in this aspect. Saying that he hasn't made any great strides in his development is simply false. Maybe that improvement isn't good enough for your standards, but regardless it's still a significant progression from his first season here.

You then argue that he won't ever be better than he is now. That isn't an argument. That's a hunch. A hunch that could be wrong or that could be right. Either way, it's inconsequential. Di Maria went from a frustrating and inconsistent player one year to being voted in the world XI and Argentina POTY above Messi. It's not such an inconceivable idea that Oscar can still improve and develop into an elite player.

On the subject of his general play, that's a valid argument. But you and others on here act like his general play has been poor all season. That isn't true though. If you scan old comments on this thread starting from August, there were hardly any complaints about Oscar's passing for much of the first half of the season. It wasn't until Spurs away then Newcastle at home that consistent complaints of his sloppy passing began emerging. His general play has been dire recently, but it hasn't been a season long occurrence. Btw, since that game against Newcastle at the Bridge, Oscar has since played 90 mins against Swansea, Bradford, Liverpool, City and then 70 mins against Villa. He's played a lot of games in a short period so it's not out of the realm of possibility that he could be exhausted.

Also, when criticizing Oscar's general play, people fail to realize or note that the team's passing overall has been turgid for a few months now. Matic has been misplacing one too many passes. Cesc has had his share of sloppy games. Even Hazard's general play has dropped significantly when a few months ago, he was unplayable. My point is that, I think you're putting a lot of weight into Oscar's recent performances but that doesn't give an accurate reflection of the way he's performed all season. You're only saying that Willian will do better in that role because he's in form now but Willian hasn't been performing the way he is now all season long.

I think you're an awesome poster and pretty much the sweetest member on here, but I think you've made up your mind about Oscar and you're using a blip of poor performances as justification.

[BlueLyon 9,359]

Coutinho is nice little flair player. And thats it.

First i would seriously consider if its good for team to replace hard working Oscar with more creative player. Secondly, if the answer was yes, I wouldnt replace him with Coutinho in million years.

Had one good month this year and two top performances against us and is suddenly so highly rated. Salah had dribbling magic against us too, we know how it ended.

[Pacquiao 1,834]

Coutinho is nice little flair player. And thats it.

First i would seriously consider if its good for team to replace hard working Oscar with more creative player. Secondly, if the answer was yes, I wouldnt replace him with Coutinho in million years.

Had one good month this year and two top performances against us and is suddenly so highly rated. Salah had dribbling magic against us too, we know how it ended.

exactly, coutinho is just a flashy player but in reality isnt even close to Oscar.