Nathaniel Chalobah

[The Skipper 20,593]

Because MVG is pretty much out for the season, him coming back in January could be a welcome boost, especially if we don't sign anyone in January.

[Reddish-Blue 2,341]

Really interesting how our memory of top athletes and their potential in their younger days, is so selective. If Van Ginkel were suddenly to explode onto the football scene next year and become a top class player, I wonder if you would remember saying that he bad vision and a simple passing range. Chances are you wouldn't. You would probably remember his remarkable composure, strong tackling and outstanding reading of the game.

Anyway, Paul Pogba at Nathaniel's age (18) most definitely hadn't showed more potential or talent. When Pogba was 17/18, he couldn't even get a decent run in the utd reserves while Nate at that age had become an integral player for Watford. Pogba at 18 was just another face in the pool of hyped up young, talented, midfielders with potential. Yeah he was highly rated, but many are at that age. To make him out to seem like he was a rare talent who was just miles ahead of everyone in the reserves is straight up a revisioning. His emergence as a top talent was more a case of Juventus deciding to take a punt on him than it was with him being an exceptional talent.

I get that there's a tendency on this forum to overrate and exaggerate the potential of some of our young players as was the case with Romeu, but let's not use that as some kind of justification to be pessimistic and dismissive towards the idea of giving one or two of our more, young talented youth academy products chances to move up to the first team. Nate has showed enough talent and enough potential to warrant a place in the first team. This whole argument of "oh well Wilshere and Pogba are the exception because they were just really talented" is such a falsity because it operates from this assumption that clubs give chances to young players only when their ridiculously talented which is not true.

Romeu's potential was exaggerated because he came from Barcelona's famed academy. After reading multiple Spanish reports on Romeu..it's obvious that Barcelona sold him hoping that he would be able to refine his skill set at Chelsea, then they could buy him back in 2 seasons time and make him a squad player.

As for our own academy, in terms of development and age, I think one of Aké, Chalobah or Loftus-Cheek will make it at Chelsea.

[TorontoChelsea 4,064]

Because MVG is pretty much out for the season, him coming back in January could be a welcome boost, especially if we don't sign anyone in January.

The problem we have in central midfield is not lack of depth, it's lack of elite talent. We have a lot of depth there. Essien can barely get into a game. Chalobah has a lot of talent, but he was a good player in the Championship for one season which is a long, long way from being a Premier League caliber player never mind a regular for a top Premier League side. (Look at Zaha, more experience, older, and a better player last season than Chalobah and he hasn't even gotten into a game in the Premier League for United.) Anyway, Chalobah has actually not been very good with Forest this year. He only has 4 appearances. He has been an unused sub in the last two matches. You think a player who has trouble getting into games with a Championship side is going to play an important role at Chelsea? Yes, we need to do better with our youth, but that's ensuring that the young players who have played well in good leagues (Lukaku, De Bruyne, Sturridge, etc...) get a chance. We haven't/didn't give those players a chance and they earned it. Bringing in Championship players into your side just doesn't work. The gap between the Championship and the Premier League is enormous. The loan system works. Players have to work their way up levels and keep proving themselves. When they've moved up to a level close enough to Chelsea's they deserve to get a chance at Chelsea. (This step is where we have been failing players). Chelsea will never be bringing players from the youth team and from the Championship directly into key roles on the team nor should we be.

[remains of the day 564]

Fair enough the championship is on a whole different level from the premier league but often times that argument becomes an excuse for people to justify their discomfort with 'inexperience'. If Nate had done well at a PL club rather than Watford, would those who are against giving him chances in the first team feel any differently? Somehow I doubt it. Lukaku last season had a successful loan spell at a PL side and some people on here still found reasons as to why he needed to go out on loan again - "he only did well at west brom" " he's not ready" "his back to goal play isn't good enough" - at what point do these just become excuses to avoid taking risks on young talented players, who may be raw and inexperienced but surely could become something special if they were given time and the opportunity? As much as the loan system, in general, works I'm yet to see it actually work for this club. A ridiculous number of chelsea players have gone through the loan pipeline and there still hasn't been one player who has an established role in the team. De Bruyne excelled during his loan spell, but then we went out and shelled 30 mill on Willian. The club isn't giving enough chances to academy youth players and they're not giving enough chances to players returning from loan spells (whether from championship sides, PL, or Bundesliga sides) - those two things are a lot more interrelated than many on here realize.

It's problematic because (among the top sides in the PL and in Europe) this club is very much lagging behind when it comes to converting youth potential and that's a shame. I know for me, I take a lot of pride in that the club produced one of the best central defenders in PL history.

[The only place to be 11,313]

The problem we have in central midfield is not lack of depth, it's lack of elite talent. We have a lot of depth there. Essien can barely get into a game. Chalobah has a lot of talent, but he was a good player in the Championship for one season which is a long, long way from being a Premier League caliber player never mind a regular for a top Premier League side. (Look at Zaha, more experience, older, and a better player last season than Chalobah and he hasn't even gotten into a game in the Premier League for United.) Anyway, Chalobah has actually not been very good with Forest this year. He only has 4 appearances. He has been an unused sub in the last two matches. You think a player who has trouble getting into games with a Championship side is going to play an important role at Chelsea? Yes, we need to do better with our youth, but that's ensuring that the young players who have played well in good leagues (Lukaku, De Bruyne, Sturridge, etc...) get a chance. We haven't/didn't give those players a chance and they earned it. Bringing in Championship players into your side just doesn't work. The gap between the Championship and the Premier League is enormous. The loan system works. Players have to work their way up levels and keep proving themselves. When they've moved up to a level close enough to Chelsea's they deserve to get a chance at Chelsea. (This step is where we have been failing players). Chelsea will never be bringing players from the youth team and from the Championship directly into key roles on the team nor should we be.

What's the gap between Man United reserves and Serie A?

Paul Pogba.

I completely disagree with your last point about what we should or shouldn't be doing. I see a lot of these kids playing in the flesh and youngsters like Chalobah (who we're discussing here) can sometimes make that jump.

Do you think United should loan out Januzaj? I think you're a believer in a very prescriptive method of blooding youngsters, and it seems to follow the blueprints we've been using for the past decade. But you can go through every single sport and see exceptions to this 'bring them on slowly' methodology. This staid process also seems to be pretty darn boring, but maybe that's the Canadian in you.

(That last line was a joke based on a stereotype that's well-worn ground for poor jokes, before any culturally unaware admins decide to get arsey).

[The only place to be 11,313]

Fair enough the championship is on a whole different level from the premier league but often times that argument becomes an excuse for people to justify their discomfort with 'inexperience'. If Nate had done well at a PL club rather than Watford, would those who are against giving him chances in the first team feel any differently? Somehow I doubt it. Lukaku last season had a successful loan spell at a PL side and some people on here still found reasons as to why he needed to go out on loan again - "he only did well at west brom" " he's not ready" "his back to goal play isn't good enough" - at what point do these just become excuses to avoid taking risks on young talented players, who may be raw and inexperienced but surely could become something special if they were given time and the opportunity? As much as the loan system, in general, works I'm yet to see it actually work for this club. A ridiculous number of chelsea players have gone through the loan pipeline and there still hasn't been one player who has an established role in the team. De Bruyne excelled during his loan spell, but then we went out and shelled 30 mill on Willian. The club isn't giving enough chances to academy youth players and they're not giving enough chances to players returning from loan spells (whether from championship sides, PL, or Bundesliga sides) - those two things are a lot more interrelated than many on here realize.

It's problematic because (among the top sides in the PL and in Europe) this club is very much lagging behind when it comes to converting youth potential and that's a shame. I know for me, I take a lot of pride in that the club produced one of the best central defenders in PL history.

Spot on.

I think the club has a problem with youth, but there are some fans who seem to constantly look for reasons not to take a chance. It's remarkably unadventurous for a club who haven't produced a youth product of note for almost a decade because they were afraid to take a chance. It seems almost insane to keep repeating the same process.

To me, that's one of the great joys of supporting a club. Seeing a young lad take their first tentative steps on the pitch having worked their way up the academy, then becoming a mainstay in the club before becoming a legend.

I grew up hearing stories of Osgood and Greaves, then watching Fergie's Fledglings conquer Europe before our own JT reached the pinnacle of the game. I also took immense pride in seeing Mark Nicholls score at White Hart Lane or seeing Jody Morris score against United.

Now I'm going to say something that will piss people off - I think there's a modern football fan who is so disconnected from what I would call the real supporting of a football team that they simply don't understand this type of pleasure. They've never felt that buzz of seeing out of the corner of their eye a youngster get up from the dugout and take his tracksuit top off and get ready for his debut. They've never engaged in the chatter about who this youngster is, and heard from that one guy what he's done in the youth team. That is one of the best things about supporting a club, seeing someone maybe become a legend that you can tell your own kids about. They become part of the fabric of the club, eternally linked with someone who made their debut decades ago.

The unwillingness to take a chance on that happening is simply a result of people not knowing what that type of pleasure can feel like.

[CHOULO19 24,332]

Really interesting how our memory of top athletes and their potential in their younger days, is so selective. If Van Ginkel were suddenly to explode onto the football scene next year and become a top class player, I wonder if you would remember saying that he bad vision and a simple passing range. Chances are you wouldn't. You would probably remember his remarkable composure, strong tackling and outstanding reading of the game.

Anyway, Paul Pogba at Nathaniel's age (18) most definitely hadn't showed more potential or talent. When Pogba was 17/18, he couldn't even get a decent run in the utd reserves while Nate at that age had become an integral player for Watford. Pogba at 18 was just another face in the pool of hyped up young, talented, midfielders with potential. Yeah he was highly rated, but many are at that age. To make him out to seem like he was a rare talent who was just miles ahead of everyone in the reserves is straight up a revisioning. His emergence as a top talent was more a case of Juventus deciding to take a punt on him than it was with him being an exceptional talent.

I get that there's a tendency on this forum to overrate and exaggerate the potential of some of our young players as was the case with Romeu, but let's not use that as some kind of justification to be pessimistic and dismissive towards the idea of giving one or two of our more, young talented youth academy products chances to move up to the first team. Nate has showed enough talent and enough potential to warrant a place in the first team. This whole argument of "oh well Wilshere and Pogba are the exception because they were just really talented" is such a falsity because it operates from this assumption that clubs give chances to young players only when their ridiculously talented which is not true.

Just one question: If Pogba was just another hyped up youth player, why did his move to Juvenile cause so much media attention? Surely if, let's say, Lewis Baker moves to Juve now, utd fans probably won't even hear about it.

Do you really think that Pogba and Wilshere are where they are just because they were given first team matches? They are there because they are incredible talents and were good enough to be with the first team. Nathanial still isn't and it should be proof enough that he's struggling for minutes in the championship, how do you expect him to get enough minutes for him to develop properly here?!

[remains of the day 564]

Just one question: If Pogba was just another hyped up youth player, why did his move to Juvenile cause so much media attention? Surely if, let's say, Lewis Baker moves to Juve now, utd fans probably won't even hear about it.

Do you really think that Pogba and Wilshere are where they are just because they were given first team matches? They are there because they are incredible talents and were good enough to be with the first team. Nathanial still isn't and it should be proof enough that he's struggling for minutes in the championship, how do you expect him to get enough minutes for him to develop properly here?!

Would Wilshere and Pogba be the players they are now (at age 21 mind you) if Arsenal & Juventus hadn't given them the platform to step up to the first team? Of course they wouldn't. At age 21? Not a chance and I think a better question we should perhaps be asking is would those two be where they are now if they came through Chelsea's academy. In other words, If we had Pogba & Wilshere in our books, would they have developed into the top players they are now at the age of 21? Or would they still be perpetually floating from one loan to another?

Also, I must have missed something because I made the argument that Pogba at utd was just another hyped up talented prospect before moving to Juventus where he was then able to establish himself as an exceptional talent and you're going off on a tangent of drawing comparisons to Lewis baker. What relevance does Lewis Baker have in this discussion? Baker is criminally underrated among a lot of cfc fans let alone supporters of other club. Nate on the other hand is publicly known as an emerging young talent and regularly features in lists of top youth prospects. Lewis Baker doesn't have that hype and public profile around him. Using him as an example is completely inconsequential and just pointless. Pogba drew media attention because not only was he a top youth prospect but he was also a Man Utd top youth prospect, that carries some value. Even less talented young prospects at Utd have garnered similar degrees of media spotlight, Ravel Morrison being an example so the attention Pogba received in the press isn't really indicative of anything. Also the fact that he had top clubs after his signature can't be used as any big indicator. Van Ginkel was rumoured to have Utd, Juventus and of course Chelsea, all interested in him but you, Choulo, wouldn't call him an exceptional talent would you?

Anyway this whole thing of trying to determine whether Nate is exactly on the same level that Pogba was at that age - is a minutiae detail and besides the point. I think the point myself and a few others on here are trying to make is - if Utd can take a risk in progressing young prospects like Januzaj to the first team and if Arsenal can give first team opportunities to gnabry then why can't we and why shouldn't we do the same with our own best youth prospect?

[lionsden 4,689]

Would Wilshere and Pogba be the players they are now (at age 21 mind you) if Arsenal & Juventus hadn't given them the platform to step up to the first team? Of course they wouldn't. At age 21? Not a chance and I think a better question we should perhaps be asking is would those two be where they are now if they had came through Chelsea's academy. In other words, If we had Pogba & Wilshere in our books, would they have developed into the top players they are now at the age of 21? Or would they still be perpetually floating from one loan to another?

Also, I must have missed something because I made the argument that Pogba at utd was just another hyped up talented prospect before moving to Juventus where he was then able to establish himself as an exceptional talent and you're going off on a tangent of drawing comparisons to Lewis baker. I mean really, what relevance does Lewis Baker have in this discussion? Baker is criminally underrated among a lot of cfc fans let alone supporters of other club. Nate on the other hand is publicly known as an emerging young talent and regularly features in lists of top youth prospects. Lewis Baker doesn't have that hype and public profile around him. Using him as an example is completely inconsequential and just pointless. Pogba drew media attention because not only was he a youth prospect but he was also a Man Utd top youth prospect, that carries some value. Less talented young prospects at Utd have garnered similar degrees of media spotlight, Ravel Morrison being an example so the attention Pogba received in the press isn't really indicative of anything. Also the fact that he had top clubs after his signature can't be used as any big indicator. Van Ginkel was rumoured to have Utd, Juventus and of course Chelsea, all interested in him but you, Choulo, wouldn't call him an exceptional talent would you?

Anyway this whole thing of trying to determine whether Nate is exactly on the same level that Pogba was at that age - is a minutiae detail and besides the point. I think the point myself and a few others on here are trying to make is if Utd can take a risk in progressing young prospects like Januzaj and if Arsenal can give first team opportunities to gnabry then why can't we and why shouldn't we do the same with our own best youth prospect?

Because the universe would cease to exist and we had lose every single game by 10 goals margin.. . . .so i have heard.

[Reddish-Blue 2,341]

Just one question: If Pogba was just another hyped up youth player, why did his move to Juvenile cause so much media attention? Surely if, let's say, Lewis Baker moves to Juve now, utd fans probably won't even hear about it.

Do you really think that Pogba and Wilshere are where they are just because they were given first team matches? They are there because they are incredible talents and were good enough to be with the first team. Nathanial still isn't and it should be proof enough that he's struggling for minutes in the championship, how do you expect him to get enough minutes for him to develop properly here?!

The media attention came from the fact that United had a rubbish midfield yet Fergie was unwilling to take a chance on Pogba.

Pogba had plenty of talent, I remember Scholes saying in an interview for MUTV (in relation to Pogba): You can't teach flair, technique & determination.

As for the Lewis Baker comment...comeon, let's be serious, that was an unfair comparison..in Baker's case, he'll probably end up playing Championship/League 1 football.

[remains of the day 564]

Because the universe would cease to exist and we had lose every single game by 10 goals margin.. . . .so i have heard.

Of course, and also let's not forget how Nathaniel has been struggling to get minutes at Forest......for a whole TWO months! If that just doesn't prove to people that he'll never make it at Chelsea I don't know what will....

[dee25 1,044]

Definitely a fascinating discussion. I was creeping though the Pogba thread on Redcafe earlier and as I skimmed through the comments it was like Deja Vu. It's like someone took this thread and transported it over there. These are a few interesting comments I came across. These were posted in 2011 when Pogba was 18.

Pogba still has a lot to prove in reserves football, so I'm not sure why you would think on that basis that he's ready for the first team. He has boundless amounts of talent but currently he is not good to merit a few minutes in the cups at the end of games. He's not Ryan Giggs, he's not a left winger and it's not 1991.

it's not a comparison to giggs. It's an example of a talented kid who's not fully developed and who didn't go out on loan but was given an opportunity and now he's out most successful player. That is not a comparison. They're not like to for like. It was to point out, that not every bleeping player needs to go out on loan or even be fully developed........

The likes of Pogba and Morrison may be great players in the future but for me they're not the answer now - nor is it fair to expect them to be, so hopefully a new central player with real talent and ability will come in and be the missing peice of the puzzle.

Kiko had scored a hat-trick in the previous reserve game before getting that chance. Pogba is still not ready yet for more than a few minutes at the end of games at most.

And re: your point that 'if you're good enough you're old enough, Fergie thinks he's obviously not good enough yet, and with all due respect, his opinion > yours.

Every single one of them had done more than Pgba has by the time they got their chance.

Giggs was the star player in the youths and reserves, Fabregas ran the show for Arsenal when he has a chance in the carling cup at 16 after bossing the reserves, fabio and rafael each got a game in a preseason reserves friendly and looked so good from the first moment that they couldnt help but be fast tracked into the first team. Pogba still struggles at a reserve level that gets weaker year on year. Let's walk before we can run, eh?

To me, he looks like a promising young player with a lot more development to come. League Cup ties against lower league opposition are about his level right now and he certainly doesn't look ready for Premiership football.

I'm sure there's a new trend for people to expect every player to be fully developed by the age of 18 and, if not, they're considered ready for the scrap heap. If Pogba has half a brain he'll realise that he still needs to improve in a lot of areas before he can be trusted with a first team spot.

Very odd argument to suggest that, just because he's 18 and is starting to form into a good player, he'd instantly expect to be playing Premiership matches and will demand a move away if not.

Hindsight really is 20/20 huh? Two things are obvious to me 1. Pogba's talent was clear for all to see but at 18 years I don't think he was so much more better than Chalobah is right now nor was he more further along in his development. From the sound of it, he was even struggling in the reserves and 2) when it comes to blooding in young players they'll always be doubters and naysayers no matter how talented the youth is.

[The only place to be 11,313]

Definitely a fascinating discussion. I was creeping though the Pogba thread on Redcafe earlier and as I skimmed through the comments it was like Deja Vu. It's like someone took this thread and transported it over there. These are a few interesting comments I came across. These were posted in 2011 when Pogba was 18.

Hindsight really is 20/20 huh? Two things are obvious to me 1. Pogba's talent was clear for all to see but at 18 years I don't think he was so much more better than Chalobah is right now nor was he more further along in his development. From the sound of it, he was even struggling in the reserves and 2) when it comes to blooding in young players they'll always be doubters and naysayers no matter how talented the youth is.

Great post.

There will always be people saying why something shouldn't be done, but I simply don't understand it when what we've been doing hasn't exactly been successful.

[The only place to be 11,313]

Unused sub again. Failure of a loan spell. Well done Chelsea.

[We Hate Scouse 10,286]

Unused sub again. Failure of a loan spell. Well done Chelsea.

He was a sub against Burnley the other week and got very good reviews from the Forest fans. Apparently he completely kept them in the game and they would've lost without him. Disappointing it didn't warrant him a start on Friday.

Hopefully he will feature on Tuesday against Millwall.

[The Skipper 20,593]

Get him back. Would've/should've started today.

[Mufassir08 2,400]

With his loan deal expiring in Jan maybe we should recall him looking at our midfield problems.

[We Hate Scouse 10,286]

http://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/football/transfer-news/chelseas-nathan-chalobah-eyed-transfer-2874336

Leeds want Chelsea’s England Under-21 cap Nathan Chalobah at the end of his current loan deal with Championship rivals Nottingham Forest.

Chalobah will return to Stamford Bridge next month after a mixed spell in the Midlands.

And Leeds want the talented midfielder on loan as they look to improve their squad with funds they hope will arrive in January from new investors.

Chalobah, 18, is on a big salary at the Blues, who will look to recoup that money when they send him to his next home.

The youngster was outstanding for Watford on loan last season, helping them reach the Championship Play-off Final, but it has not worked out so well for him at Forest.