Gareth Bale

[JayC 171]

Ow my!

No, you got me wrong. My post was about the debate about who was best. My intro dealing with the 'target audience' did not mention you at all actually.

Your last remark just gave me the lolz

So I added a remark to end. Banter mate, you got the red on your profile pic. So I wanted to tease you a bit (especially after you saying 'Ronaldo'. The post in itself wasn't really about you.

No problem. Banter all you want, but biased I am not. I call it like I see it. I can get things wrong though like anybody else. Biased, no.

I actually have to agree ..

CURRENTLY, Bale is the better, more effective player IMO .

Whether he has a higher ceilling or higher potential isn't relevant right now I think..

Thank you. Finally somebody that agrees. I thought this was turning into a pointless debate with so much negativity. I guess it's nearly run its course though - I didn't ever think I would win this one on a Chelsea forum anyway.

Bale had a season where every attempt from outside of the box went into the net, props to him ofcourse, amazing shooting ability. Combined with his physical presence he was a force and carried Tottenham.

Eden outclassed him in the last months of the season though.

If Mourinho can make him more of a goalscorer he'll easily be better than Bale. Imho he's better at every aspect of the game apart from finishing and pace (and strength I suppose).

Inb4 double bias

I've never argued he can't be better. I agree with you. I'm not sure about 'easily' better than Bale though. You have to give a player the respect he deserves when he's had such a great season. Until he starts to flop or whatever you have to give him it. There is nothing written in stone about Hazard becoming a footballing god. I can see you are all excited about him, as I would be, but the fact he gets hyped up or has some sort of super potential is simply heresay until it's proven.

Yes. But that is exactly the reason this debate on who is actually .... better/has a higher ceiling/.... needs the perspective of history as well. Bale did awesome, Eden very well. eden had his maiden year.

But the variable of played best next year to determine who's the best/promising/..... is a very bad one. Hazard did not as well as he did this year - but for Bale everything worked and Eden had his first year starting in a transition situation, a lot of young guys, a thin squad, sacking of the manager, ball boy shit, FSW ... So .... the only way to intelligibly is keep history in mind. Hazard might have played in a weaker league. Ligue 1 is not ALL the weak thing people some make of it -. And he ripped that place apart. Multiple years.

It gives the Bale/Hazard thing a new perspective .... that's all :-)

I don't agree that it needs history. History is just that. You can't live on past glories in football IMO. I don't see an easier way to say who is best currently than having two players go at it in the same league. I've said it before and I'll say it again.

[Stingray 9,441]

biased I am not. I call it like I see it. I can g:-)et things wrong though like anybody else. Biased, no

The very essence of a cognitive bias is that it is unconscious, unaware off and involunatary. The way you see it, has every bit of your bias in it, as I have mine.

That is why we talk, debate and confront.

[yuvala 2,167]

Thank you. Finally somebody that agrees. I thought this was turning into a pointless debate with so much negativity. I guess it's nearly run its course though - I didn't ever think I would win this one on a Chelsea forum anyway.

Well these arguments always lead to a dead end. You can't be sure about something like this, there are so many things to consider, and something you consider relevant is not nessecairly relevant to someone else. The thing is that there's no black or white, if u know what I mean.

Its like when fighting over CR7 vs. Messi.. its endless. You can say Messi scored more, you can say Ronaldo is more physical, you can say Messi can't do without Xavi and Iniesta, you can say Ronaldo sucks in Portugal, you can say Messi sucks in Argentina, you can say Ronaldo has a better shot, you can say Messi has better accuracy.... it's fucking ENDLESS.

[JayC 171]

The very essence of a cognitive bias is that it is unconscious, unaware off and involunatary. The way you see it, has every bit of your bias in it, as I have mine.

That is why we talk, debate and confront.

I don't even like Gareth Bale, mate. Go figure it out now.

Well these arguments always lead to a dead end. You can't be sure about something like this, there are so many things to consider, and something you consider relevant is not nessecairly relevant to someone else. The thing is that there's no black or white, if u know what I mean.

Its like when fighting over CR7 vs. Messi.. its endless. You can say Messi scored more, you can say Ronaldo is more physical, you can say Messi can't do without Xavi and Iniesta, you can say Ronaldo sucks in Portugal, you can say Messi sucks in Argentina, you can say Ronaldo has a better shot, you can say Messi has better accuracy.... it's fucking ENDLESS.

I agree. Well said.

[Stingray 9,441]

History is just that.

Lol. Ow Comon, you make a strawman out of me, mate.

If player history is just that (and i mean the players recent history - see the original post) - some players - like Rooney - would suddenly drop in 'ability'. That is foolish. Previous recent performances do count. What are you gonna do? Rate the players quality by match?

[Stingray 9,441]

I don't even like Gareth Bale, mate. Go figure it out now.

Who said you had to? Just google 'Confirmation Bias'.

[JayC 171]

Lol. Ow Comon, you make a strawman out of me, mate.

If player history is just that (and i mean the players recent history - see the original post) - some players - like Rooney - would suddenly drop in 'ability'. That is foolish. Previous recent performances do count. What are you gonna do? Rate the players quality by match?

What is hard to understand about it? History has no bearing on the here and now. It's not rocket science. You can look back and say: "wow, what a player he was then." Sure. However it still doesn't go towards his ability now. Yeah? That's all I'm saying. Players can have their history but cannot be ranked on it now. It's like me saying Giggs is the best, just look at how he played ten years ago... makes no sense.

[Stingray 9,441]

What is hard to understand about it? History has no bearing on the here and now. It's not rocket science. You can look back and say: "wow, what a player he was then." Sure. However it still doesn't go towards his ability now. Yeah? That's all I'm saying. Players can have their history but cannot be ranked on it now. It's like me saying Giggs is the best, just look at how he played ten years ago... makes no sense.

Again .... not history in that sense..... Never mind mate.

[sutro 1,026]

What is hard to understand about it? History has no bearing on the here and now. It's not rocket science. You can look back and say: "wow, what a player he was then." Sure. However it still doesn't go towards his ability now. Yeah? That's all I'm saying. Players can have their history but cannot be ranked on it now. It's like me saying Giggs is the best, just look at how he played ten years ago... makes no sense.

Or its like getting michael owen..... No history doesnt count

[JayC 171]

Again .... not history in that sense..... Never mind mate.

Well I'm sorry but history in any sense has no bearing on what I said.

But I'm done for today anyway. Need some food and stuff.

Laters.

[Mr_President 404]

I agree with the UTD fan.

At the moment Bale is the more effective of the two, but I believe it is clear to see that from a technical point of view Hazard is already ahead of him. I believe this, compounded by the fact that Hazard is younger and a Chelsea player being discussed on a Chelsea board, is why many people suggest he is better than Bale or at least has a higher 'ceiling'.

Hazard already gave an interview himself a month or two ago about how he wants to be more clinical and start scoring like Ronaldo rather than looking to do something flashy or make a pass, so I think we may see exactly how talented he is in the coming years.

[Magic Lamps 11,451]

Ronaldo a trained product? Well yes. Every player is. I've watched him for so many years and let me tell you - the lad has always looked brilliant and full of promise. He's the second best player in the world (some would say first) and he made it by getting trained with less (or none) god given ability than Hazard? No. Ronaldo is a born talent. Not a question in my mind. In fact I don't believe you wouldn't put him in there with Messi. But you put in Hazard? Come on. Go watch Ronaldo's debut for us, and tell me the same. Go watch him at Sporting and tell me he had no god given ability. In fact that is crazy. I don't have any more words for it.

And I'm still not buying that La Liga is so much worse defensively than the PL. I just don't believe it. If this was the case all strikers in that league would score shit tonnes too. Only Messi and Ronaldo, why? It's a bad argument, in my opinion. Stop trying to make up excuses to favor Hazard... I won't buy them. Plain and simple.

In fact looking into it.

Goals scored in the PL season 2012/2013; 1111

Goals scored in La Liga season 2012/2013; 1091

Less goals were scored in La Liga last season, and going by your argument that means it is actually harder there.

In my mind this means the leagues are very similar. Even pull up the tables and sorting goals conceded shows very similar results when compared to the PL. The truth is both leagues are very similar, and Hazard will not be at any disadvantage. Argument void.

Of course Ronaldo is immensely talented + an amazing athlete. That is why he is class. He is all-round one of the best attackers ever. He has much more weapons to him than Messi, though Messi gets past any defense with his mazy dribbling. That is why I think Hazard is also much more similar to Messi. Both go slalom around defenders and go past them cos of their superior agility and lower centre of gravity. Ronaldo is as big as most defenders, he can't do that. He usually sprints straightforward into space. Anyway...

I don't think the number of goals has any influence on the argument. Real and Barca scoring for fun cos the smaller teams don't even try is a fact anyone can see it who watches La Liga. But the number of goals is also influenced by the games smaller teams play against each other and when they have a stalemate there more often as a result of teams just being equally shit. I tis a fact the small teams in England are better. They got much bigger budget hence better players and usually also better coaches. Those Wigan, Stokes, Sunderlands, Fulhams can hurt the big teams and usually give them a good game. Even Aston Villa, West Ham, Bolton give it their all at home and often get results. I don't see that in La Liga at all.

Another point about Real and Barca is that they are hugely protected by the Spanish government. The Spanish state makes their players pay less taxes & does not put their insane debts under any scrutiny. Also no one cared about their alignment with famous Spanish doping doctors (not only Fuentes). Playing not full strength teams and rolling over when they play against it is the small clubs form of protesting against that. That is why Real and Barca strikers particularly profit.

[Tomo 21,681]

I can see Madrid breaking their own record for transfer fee for Hazard in a few years time if Chelsea is ever gonna let him go. Like Zlatan said, Ronaldo and Bale are more of a trained product while the likes of Hazard and Messi are born talents. Bale moving to Madrid is definately in his best interest as he can prove is worth against the smaller Spanish clubs week in week out while Hazard has to work against bigger teams every weak.

I also think Bale can use his pace to run riot around the Spanish defences. Hazard on the other hand- being smaller and more technical- will find it tougher to excel in the EPL it being a more physical sorta league. Clearly, Hazard is at a disadvantage They're gonna start the Ronaldo-Messi thing all over gain in a few years time. Hope Bale doesn't trump Hazard like what Messi's doing to Ronaldo.

Although i agree that Hazard will eventually become better than Bale if he isn't already, the PL for me is not that much better than the Spanish if it even is. it's the most over-rated league in world football. Below Liverpool the teams are shite, some may say Swansea but for every good results (Arsenal away) they had last season they had a shocking result (Fulham at home). Teams will have a run of good form (West Brom at the start of the last season) but over-all no team including WBA/Swansea below are very good and the overall during a 38 game season it shows.

[Tomo 21,681]

As for Bale himself he has gone from being the most under-rated player in world football to the most over-rated. He didn't get the credit he deserved for years, now people are suddenly realizing it and it's gone way,way too far the other way.

He has got a healthy number of goals this season but what's overlooked is he has pretty much given up his assist game to do so, if you look at overall points (goals and assists) Bale got 34 (26 goals and 8 assist's) while Hazard got 38 (13 goals and 25 assist's) Mata got 55 (20 goals and a whooping 35 assist's).

So in terms of goals Bale is the best but put goals and assist's into the equation (infact in an attacking midfielder you should look at assist's as much if not more than goals) than Hazard is actually ahead of him and Mata is in a different league.

Infact bringing just goals into the equation then the much maligned Walcott is only 5 behind Bale, i couldn't get Theo's assist stats but if it's 14 or more then he has more "points" than the Welshman also.

Bale is a great player, no doubt about it but an £85m price tag is absurd and if at any point Hazard wants to go to Madrid i hope the club use the Bale transfer to make Eden (or even by those stats Mata if he ever for any reason wanted to return to his boyhood club) the first £100m player.

[Sidzeret 2,257]

Although i agree that Hazard will eventually become better than Bale if he isn't already, the PL for me is not that much better than the Spanish if it even is. it's the most over-rated league in world football. Below Liverpool the teams are shite, some may say Swansea but for every good results (Arsenal away) they had last season they had a shocking result (Fulham at home). Teams will have a run of good form (West Brom at the start of the last season) but over-all no team including WBA/Swansea below are very good and the overall during a 38 game season it shows.

Barring the likes of RM, Barcelona and to some extend Sociedad,Malaga and AM, Spain has shit teams as we go down. EPL have quality till we reach Swansea. The lower spanish teams have only Champoinship quality. Trust me, i watched a lot of La Liga last season.

[Tomo 21,681]

Barring the likes of RM, Barcelona and to some extend Sociedad,Malaga and AM, Spain has shit teams as we go down. EPL have quality till we reach Swansea. The lower spanish teams have only Champoinship quality. Trust me, i watched a lot of La Liga last season.

Add Valencia in that aswel that is 6 while the PL has 7, West Brom and Swansea aren't actually very good for reason's i have already underlined.

[Sidzeret 2,257]

As for Bale himself he has gone from being the most under-rated player in world football to the most over-rated. He didn't get the credit he deserved for years, now people are suddenly realizing it and it's gone way,way too far the other way.

He has got a healthy number of goals this season but what's overlooked is he has pretty much given up his assist game to do so, if you look at overall points (goals and assists) Bale got 34 (26 goals and 8 assist's) while Hazard got 38 (13 goals and 25 assist's) Mata got 55 (20 goals and a whooping 35 assist's).

So in terms of goals Bale is the best but put goals and assist's into the equation (infact in an attacking midfielder you should look at assist's as much if not more than goals) than Hazard is actually ahead of him and Mata is in a different league.

Infact bringing just goals into the equation then the much maligned Walcott is only 5 behind Bale, i couldn't get Theo's assist stats but if it's 14 or more then he has more "points" than the Welshman also.

Bale is a great player, no doubt about it but an £85m price tag is absurd and if at any point Hazard wants to go to Madrid i hope the club use the Bale transfer to make Eden (or even by those stats Mata if he ever for any reason wanted to return to his boyhood club) the first £100m player.

Bale was overrated as he brought out his best at the business end of the season( and won the PFA Awards). Hazard was awesome at the start, got a bit silent towards the middle and eventually made ground but by that time Bale has takrn centre stage. Besides Chelsea wasn't all about Hazard while Tott'num was virtually carried around by Bale. Barca signing Neymar also adds to RM's desperation and Bale's market value. I wudnt be surprised if 85m plus Coentrao will pull thru before this week.Hazard,on the other hand, is worth as much as CR7 right now considering his age.

[TorontoChelsea 4,064]

Although i agree that Hazard will eventually become better than Bale if he isn't already, the PL for me is not that much better than the Spanish if it even is. it's the most over-rated league in world football. Below Liverpool the teams are shite, some may say Swansea but for every good results (Arsenal away) they had last season they had a shocking result (Fulham at home). Teams will have a run of good form (West Brom at the start of the last season) but over-all no team including WBA/Swansea below are very good and the overall during a 38 game season it shows.

Very strongly disagree. I think the Premier League is very easily the best league in the world because of the depth of the league and depth in two places.

1) Spurs, Everton, and Liverpool are all quality sides with a bunch of really good players and none of them even make a CL spot. No other league has quality like that missing CL spots.

2) Look at a team like Newcastle. 16th in the league last year, fighting for relegation. They have players who have been internationals for Holland, Argentina, France, Ivory Coast, and so on. Compare them to a team like Sevilla who finished 9th in Spain and is taking Marko Marin on loan. Newcastle's talent is significantly greater. Hell, QPR was the worst team in England and their keeper was the national team goalie for Brazil.

The reason is simple. English teams spend much more money. Every year, English teams spend money buying players from other leagues. The Premier League is the buying league, constantly buying good players and great players from other leagues and very rarely does a top player go the other way. Spain doesn't even have all the top Spanish players anymore. Of the 23 players called up to the Confederations Cup, 8 play in England. Apart from Barcelona and Real Madrid, Spanish teams are always selling players to pay their bills. In the past 2 seasons, only Barcelona have a net transfer of more than 10M pounds in either season. 14 Premier League sides have hit the 10M pound mark in either of the last 2 seasons. Of course the English league is going to be much better!

The Premier League has 163 internationals. That's 50 more internationals than any other league and almost 100 more internationals than Spain. 32% of the league is internationals. The Spanish League 14.3%. (Yes, I know internationals is not the only way to judge quality but it's not a bad one!) The Premier League always has a few week teams but it has easily the most difficult games, not just because there's real competition at the top (where there isn't in most leagues) but because the mid-table teams are filled with quality international players rather than mediocrity. I know it's fashionable to go on about other leagues, but the quality of player is simply much lower. (I actually think it's a real disadvantage for English teams in Europe too because you can't rest your players as often domestically because there are fewer easy games.)