🇪🇨 25. Moisés Caicedo

[robsblubot 3,595]

2 hours ago, King Kante said:

That isn't going to happen. Essien was an absolute specimen of an athlete. His ability to dominate opposition was due to his ability to out fight, out muscle and out run everyone on the pitch. On top of that he could absolutely leather the ball in a way Reece is only able to get near to. 

If you mean, play like Essien minus all of the above, then maybe, as Caicedo isn't anywhere near the physical specimen Essien was.

Caicedo's overall play is much more akin to players like Petit, Mikel and Jorginho. In that he is a pretty safe pair of hands in keeping possession as be isn't loose with his passing and can take a ball and move it on in tight situations and find a player. At best he becomes a new Maka if he can start breaking the lines with his forward passing by hitting it flat with pace and improves his vision to see the onward pass as soon as the advanced player looses his man. 

I agree with you, but reckon Essien wouldn't be what he was without the latter, the skill; he was one of the most skillful CM/DMs I've seen.

While I agree that Caicedo is limited at this moment, I expect him to much surpass the likes of Mikel (likely Jorgi too). Mikel was one of the worst mids I've seen play the game: Wasn't very quick, so to defend at all he forced the team into a very low backline; he could not shoot to save his life, and had abysmal passing range, but stats would show he completed 1000 short sideway passes a game. 🤷‍♂️

On on hand I say that it's too soon to pass judgment on Caicedo. On the other, I don't really understand how someone expects him to move from Brighton to Chelsea at the age of 21 and dominate the midfield... makes no sense.

[Blue Armour 4,443]

1 hour ago, robsblubot said:

I agree with you, but reckon Essien wouldn't be what he was without the latter, the skill; he was one of the most skillful CM/DMs I've seen.

While I agree that Caicedo is limited at this moment, I expect him to much surpass the likes of Mikel (likely Jorgi too). Mikel was one of the worst mids I've seen play the game: Wasn't very quick, so to defend at all he forced the team into a very low backline; he could not shoot to save his life, and had abysmal passing range, but stats would show he completed 1000 short sideway passes a game. 🤷‍♂️

On on hand I say that it's too soon to pass judgment on Caicedo. On the other, I don't really understand how someone expects him to move from Brighton to Chelsea at the age of 21 and dominate the midfield... makes no sense.

Agreed. Essien is more skillful on the ball than both Kante and Makelele. Even a decent aerial threat. Also a great passer of the ball, long and short. Also had great shooting range.

Even played RB for us in the Champions league final in 2008.

I would in fact take prime Essien over Makelele & Kante.

Edited October 30, 2023 by Blue Armour

[MoroccanBlue 5,383]

11 hours ago, King Kante said:

That isn't going to happen. Essien was an absolute specimen of an athlete. His ability to dominate opposition was due to his ability to out fight, out muscle and out run everyone on the pitch. On top of that he could absolutely leather the ball in a way Reece is only able to get near to. 

If you mean, play like Essien minus all of the above, then maybe, as Caicedo isn't anywhere near the physical specimen Essien was.

Caicedo's overall play is much more akin to players like Petit, Mikel and Jorginho. In that he is a pretty safe pair of hands in keeping possession as be isn't loose with his passing and can take a ball and move it on in tight situations and find a player. At best he becomes a new Maka if he can start breaking the lines with his forward passing by hitting it flat with pace and improves his vision to see the onward pass as soon as the advanced player looses his man. 

Again that is just an outright lie. The sheer overblown misapprehension on players after one defeat does my head. Are we just going to ignore Caicedo's first touch side of the boot pass that split open Arsenal's defence and had Mudrk though? Or his ping pass to Colwill after ignoring Enzo which set up Mudryks' goal against Fulham? 

Caicedo is a physical aggressor who is fantastic at challenging the ball and is technical enough to be both good in possession as well as finding the right pass. His xT at Brighton last season and even this season still remain high. 

[robsblubot 3,595]

3 hours ago, MoroccanBlue said:

Again that is just an outright lie. The sheer overblown misapprehension on players after one defeat does my head. Are we just going to ignore Caicedo's first touch side of the boot pass that split open Arsenal's defence and had Mudrk though? Or his ping pass to Colwill after ignoring Enzo which set up Mudryks' goal against Fulham? 

Caicedo is a physical aggressor who is fantastic at challenging the ball and is technical enough to be both good in possession as well as finding the right pass. His xT at Brighton last season and even this season still remain high. 

While I agree with you that he's currently a good player, I'd suggest that his Brighton days no longer matter. He's nowhere near his Brighton days, which happens 99% of the time (Kante being the exception I can think of). Brighton isn't Chelsea, even if they play in the same league--the jump is a challenge for any player esp a 21yo.

Both Kova, and esp Kante, played very direct. Kante in particular, was phenomenal in regaining possession and making forward runs running past players in the same play. Caicedo does not quite do that and I'm not sure it's characteristics, or just that he's adapting/developing.

He does pass well, and not only sideway passes, but he does do a little too much of that for me. It's difficult to know how much is instruction from the manager, to keep possession, or just him. Too soon to have a full picture about Caicedo--early days and the team itself is fairly inconsistent atm.

[MoroccanBlue 5,383]

29 minutes ago, robsblubot said:

While I agree with you that he's currently a good player, I'd suggest that his Brighton days no longer matter. He's nowhere near his Brighton days, which happens 99% of the time (Kante being the exception I can think of). Brighton isn't Chelsea, even if they play in the same league--the jump is a challenge for any player esp a 21yo.

Both Kova, and esp Kante, played very direct. Kante in particular, was phenomenal in regaining possession and making forward runs running past players in the same play. Caicedo does not quite do that and I'm not sure it's characteristics, or just that he's adapting/developing.

He does pass well, and not only sideway passes, but he does do a little too much of that for me. It's difficult to know how much is instruction from the manager, to keep possession, or just him. Too soon to have a full picture about Caicedo--early days and the team itself is fairly inconsistent atm.

You need to stop using Kante as a reference point. Since day one I disagreed with the comparisons. 

[robsblubot 3,595]

31 minutes ago, MoroccanBlue said:

You need to stop using Kante as a reference point. Since day one I disagreed with the comparisons. 

Fair enough! 👍

They are not that similar in characteristics.

I was not necessarily comparing him to Kante, but was citing one quality our team used to have in abundance, but now we depend on Conor making runs...

Edited October 30, 2023 by robsblubot

[ZAPHOD2319 4,819]

 

[King Kante 1,643]

On 30/10/2023 at 12:26, MoroccanBlue said:

Again that is just an outright lie. The sheer overblown misapprehension on players after one defeat does my head. Are we just going to ignore Caicedo's first touch side of the boot pass that split open Arsenal's defence and had Mudrk though? Or his ping pass to Colwill after ignoring Enzo which set up Mudryks' goal against Fulham? 

Caicedo is a physical aggressor who is fantastic at challenging the ball and is technical enough to be both good in possession as well as finding the right pass. His xT at Brighton last season and even this season still remain high. 

I was saying he was overrated before we signed him. So not sure about the one game reference. 

First part yes, second part, no. He isn't anywhere near technical enough to dominate/control midfield. He is essentially a ball chaser who can intercept at a high level. It was seen again today. He meshes well with Enzo, as he does the donkey work, but as soon as Enzo goes off, the midfield cannot transition the ball quickly and give away too many turnovers. This is also why Brighton barely played him in his favoured position in the second half of last season and instead moved him.about to positions of needs in terms of coverage. 

I am not saying the kid is awful, just that he has a lot of average qualities and a few outstanding qualities. Maybe he is young enough to improve but I just don't see the level of technical ability and passing range you're describing. 

Edited November 6, 2023 by King Kante

[OhForAGreavsie 6,076]

On 06/11/2023 at 23:41, King Kante said:

I was saying he was overrated before we signed him. So not sure about the one game reference. 

First part yes, second part, no. He isn't anywhere near technical enough to dominate/control midfield. He is essentially a ball chaser who can intercept at a high level. It was seen again today. He meshes well with Enzo, as he does the donkey work, but as soon as Enzo goes off, the midfield cannot transition the ball quickly and give away too many turnovers. This is also why Brighton barely played him in his favoured position in the second half of last season and instead moved him.about to positions of needs in terms of coverage. 

I am not saying the kid is awful, just that he has a lot of average qualities and a few outstanding qualities. Maybe he is young enough to improve but I just don't see the level of technical ability and passing range you're describing. 

I was not saying that he was overrated before he joined because I didn't watch him enough to have an opinion. Since he got here the doubts have been creeping in however. I'm looking forward to Poch having Lavia as an option then we'll see what the competition can do to keep both players at their best level. It would be nice if those two can keep that slot in the team under control while we sharpen the squad in other areas, before we have to come back and think if we need to look at DM again.

[Vesper 30,195]

 

[Beigl 1,387]

Lets be honest, he has been a very average signing so far. I hoped/ thought he would provide defensive cover, while also supporting Enzo and other more offensive players with actions of substance. So far, he clearly underachieved and I hope Lavia is a useful addition as I regard him quite highly given his good technique, which Caicedo and Gallagher lack. 

[TheHulk 2,464]

2 hours ago, Beigl said:

Lets be honest, he has been a very average signing so far. I hoped/ thought he would provide defensive cover, while also supporting Enzo and other more offensive players with actions of substance. So far, he clearly underachieved and I hope Lavia is a useful addition as I regard him quite highly given his good technique, which Caicedo and Gallagher lack. 

As some others mentioned think the price tag is hanging on him, he looks hesitant many times. Think he gonna look better in a few months.

[robsblubot 3,595]

On 25/11/2023 at 04:24, Vesper said:

 

Reassuring that we are not Brighton just yet. 😆

6 hours ago, TheHulk said:

As some others mentioned think the price tag is hanging on him, he looks hesitant many times. Think he gonna look better in a few months.

He's just young. Buying them that young, 21, has a cost.
He was very very lucky to not have seen a second yellow a min 57 and 59 against Brighton. Ref turned a blind eye twice and handed a yellow to a Brighton player for asking for the yellow.

[MoroccanBlue 5,383]

Apparently he wasn't even carded at all yesterday. 

[robsblubot 3,595]

9 minutes ago, MoroccanBlue said:

Apparently he wasn't even carded at all yesterday. 

hmm you are right, he wasn't. Announcers were on and on about it. 😕 
That makes it shocking he did not get carded, but also explains his rash tackles at the time.

Still think the PK was super soft tho. 😅

Edited December 4, 2023 by robsblubot

[Magic Lamps 11,692]

pretty much a one season wonder. He is bang average and just regressed to his normal level here. Never wanted him. Sometimes he looks tidy in possession, puts in  a nice tackle here and there. But long phases of the game just pass him by. Plus he has 1-2 atrociously bad turnovers per game. Some of which have cost us goals.  Those he seems unable to get out of his game. All markings of a mediocre footballer. At this point, he has a long way to go to prove me wrong. 

[Thor 2,716]

1 hour ago, Magic Lamps said:

pretty much a one season wonder. He is bang average and just regressed to his normal level here. Never wanted him. Sometimes he looks tidy in possession, puts in  a nice tackle here and there. But long phases of the game just pass him by. Plus he has 1-2 atrociously bad turnovers per game. Some of which have cost us goals.  Those he seems unable to get out of his game. All markings of a mediocre footballer. At this point, he has a long way to go to prove me wrong. 

Typical outlandish statements. 
 

We look miles better when he plays. 

[TheHulk 2,464]

Unfair with him a bit, he didn't have a proper pre season and was put straight in after all that clubs war, he started horrendous but has improved his level ever since.

I'll start getting worried next season if he doesn't improve but so far others worry me more. Kante at his age was playing in Ligue 2.

Edited December 6, 2023 by TheHulk

[King Kante 1,643]

My biggest problem with Caicedo is his positional awareness. I am fortunate to have my season ticket up in a very good position in the East Upper, so I am able to keep an eye on position and formations a lot - previously I was in the MHL were it is a lot harder to see the patterns. 

What strikes me about Caicedo are two things. 

1) Is that he is incredibly prone to chasing the ball and giving no regard to what is around and behind him. This then leaves gaps that Enzo or James (when he is playing) have to rush into to not leave us exposed to counters - although this then leaves gaps elsewhere, hence why we keep conceding goals on the counter. 

2) Is the amount of help he needs from Enzo and the defensive line to pick up his position. I kid you not, Enzo, Silva and James, spend a vast amounts of time shouting and pointing to him when we are out of possession to fill his position as he has picked up an odd position on the field or started rushing out for no reason. I would honestly say, someone is doing this to him every 2-5 minutes depending on what the opposition are doing. 

One piece of analysis I saw on him that kind of outlined what I am saying is the MotD analysis of the City game. They pointed out how on the third goal he left Silva in acres of space chasing the ball for no reason. He did that throughout that game. Another example in that game of his ball chasing was before there pen, where he wiped out James as he didn't seem aware that James had the better position to attack/clear the ball. 

 

[MoroccanBlue 5,383]

He chases everything with hardly any discipline. This needs to be coached.