Welcome Mauricio Pochettino

[robsblubot 3,595]

26 minutes ago, Mário César said:

poch is not the problem

squad aren't good enough. simple as that. mainly in our attack. we have lack of goals and this manifests in our game

yup and I think it's a bit more serious than that, but the biggest weakness is the attack and the lack of options. If one of our attacking players isn't in good form, well too bad he has to play anyway--not much different in other positions.

To your point, we had the best opportunities against Everton, but did not have the quality to put the ball back in the net. Goals change games, and it's hard for us to chase results right now; we don't have the experience and calmness to do that.

[TheHulk 2,482]

15 minutes ago, robsblubot said:

Such unanimous opinion does not and never exited. I certainly did not think the players were bad. That roster was A LOT stronger than this.

The problem with fans is exactly this, "He had Enzo, Caicedo, Lavia, Santos, Carney, Casadei, Conor, Ugo in pre season." (Lavia and Santos - big question marks)
Do you realize you cited one world class player? All the top teams in the PL have world class players, some more than one. That's the issue here: the PL is the best league in the world right now, which means the level is super high.

Our players can improve and become better; some may yet become world class players yet, like Caicedo and Palmer, for ex. Right now they aren't tho. Right now they are no better than what the opposition has. Actually, right now they are just younger and more inexperienced than what the opposition has, so we are at a constant disadvantage.

We have players in our roster, some of which often start matches, who would be interchangeable with their counterpart at Brighton (some of which came from there).

Hey options are opinions, but IMO aside from the small, and short-lived bump in performance (from the managerial change high), the next manager will not succeed with the roster. My reply to you was about Lavia and yet another nobody 19yo who will make an immediate impact... he will likely not.

How many world class midfielders does United, Tottenham and Liverpool have?

You realize Caicedo was delivering the goods last season and everyone was praising him and now suddenly he is to young and lacks experience, this is on Poch.

Even if we get another midfield it will be another young one so won't change much. 

[Blue Armour 4,448]

3 hours ago, robsblubot said:

Such unanimous opinion does not and never exited. I certainly did not think the players were bad. That roster was A LOT stronger than this.

The problem with fans is exactly this, "He had Enzo, Caicedo, Lavia, Santos, Carney, Casadei, Conor, Ugo in pre season." (Lavia and Santos - big question marks)
Do you realize you cited one world class player? All the top teams in the PL have world class players, some more than one. That's the issue here: the PL is the best league in the world right now, which means the level is super high.

Our players can improve and become better; some may yet become world class players yet, like Caicedo and Palmer, for ex. Right now they aren't tho. Right now they are no better than what the opposition has. Actually, right now they are just younger and more inexperienced than what the opposition has, so we are at a constant disadvantage.

We have players in our roster, some of which often start matches, who would be interchangeable with their counterpart at Brighton (some of which came from there).

Hey options are opinions, but IMO aside from the small, and short-lived bump in performance (from the managerial change high), the next manager will not succeed with the roster. My reply to you was about Lavia and yet another nobody 19yo who will make an immediate impact... he will likely not.

Exactly this.

It doesn't matter how much potential this squad has.

We are the youngest squad in the league and every match we start at a disadvantage because of this.

The Everton team that beat us aren't classy by any means, but they are more street smart than our lot.

All they had to do is wait for the opportunity and punish, because our lot aren't decisive enough in the final third.

Reminds me of how late 2000s era Chelsea used to smack Wengers young Gunners team for fun.

Maybe things CAN improve if Nkunku miraculously hits top form quickly enough on return and doesn't suffer setbacks

Because that is one player who IS decisive in the final third., and can punish the opposition.

But until then - this will be the state of the team.

[robsblubot 3,595]

4 hours ago, TheHulk said:

How many world class midfielders does United, Tottenham and Liverpool have?

You realize Caicedo was delivering the goods last season and everyone was praising him and now suddenly he is to young and lacks experience, this is on Poch.

Even if we get another midfield it will be another young one so won't change much. 

Please read the exchange above about youth, potential, and current ability. Their potential does not enter the pitch.

With that out of the way, United has about the same quality, or the lack thereof that we have; they do have better options on the wings tho. So, we went to their home and lost the match. 🤷‍♂️

Caicedo was a big fish in a small pond. I addressed that in a different thread. When players move up they need to adapt: have less of the ball, pass the ball more quickly, and not run as much with the football. All this is required of Caicedo... Didn't Cucu look a lot better also? It's a very common trend actually, which makes me think expecting Lavia to deliver the goods at this time is just fantasy. If you think playing for Brighton (or Southampton) and Chelsea is the same, then we have a big disagreement here. 

[gdlk 286]

Yeah keep defend him while we regress till we go in relegation zone... Nothing have improved since last season and we revamped whole squad with new players and now they arent good again? Cmon even your hated player Havertz started to delivery in Arsenal, so players arent the problem

[Reddish-Blue 2,510]

2 hours ago, robsblubot said:

Please read the exchange above about youth, potential, and current ability. Their potential does not enter the pitch.

With that out of the way, United has about the same quality, or the lack thereof that we have; they do have better options on the wings tho. So, we went to their home and lost the match. 🤷‍♂️

Caicedo was a big fish in a small pond. I addressed that in a different thread. When players move up they need to adapt: have less of the ball, pass the ball more quickly, and not run as much with the football. All this is required of Caicedo... Didn't Cucu look a lot better also? It's a very common trend actually, which makes me think expecting Lavia to deliver the goods at this time is just fantasy. If you think playing for Brighton (or Southampton) and Chelsea is the same, then we have a big disagreement here. 

Playing for Brighton and the current version of Chelsea is the same thing.  We're not that top 4 side anymore with title winning pedigree. 

I agree that United has similar quality but they've been able to get some results through Garnacho and some of the other youngsters showing flashes of brilliance...feel like that is something we are also lacking.   Where is the attacking spark going to come from?    

[Costa19 858]

36 minutes ago, Reddish-Blue said:

Playing for Brighton and the current version of Chelsea is the same thing.  We're not that top 4 side anymore with title winning pedigree. 

I agree that United has similar quality but they've been able to get some results through Garnacho and some of the other youngsters showing flashes of brilliance...feel like that is something we are also lacking.   Where is the attacking spark going to come from?    

I mean, ETH tries to play after the material (which makes the supporters angry because they want to see his Ajax-ball) and in his present system players like Garnacho and McTominay delivers. 

We try to play possession football while the other teams are just falling back and letting us pass the ball around until we fail and they hurt us on the counter.
Where is Mudryk, Jackson, Palmer, Sterling etc meant to find space considering how we play?
Mudryk has never been a player who runs in to a brick wall and penetrate it with his strenght.. instead he should recieve the ball or run towards the ball in the areas behind the opponents back line.
He should also run against the back line while they are in a transition, not when they have parked the whole team around their penalty area.

We really need to drop deeper with our team and let the opposing team have more ball and move further up in the field so we can win the ball back and punich them with our pace and directness.

There is a reason why our best games comes from playing against the top teams (Liverpool, City, Tottenham) where we doesnt dominante the possession but instead focusing on pressing, winning the ball back and to hurt them on the counter. 
 

Edited December 12, 2023 by Costa19

[Blue Armour 4,448]

7 hours ago, gdlk said:

Yeah keep defend him while we regress till we go in relegation zone... Nothing have improved since last season and we revamped whole squad with new players and now they arent good again? Cmon even your hated player Havertz started to delivery in Arsenal, so players arent the problem

Havertz did not play under Poch last season.

Havertz played under shite management of Potter/Lampard 

So yeah, the players were not the real problem then.

But this season the players are completely different. Your post makes it seem like Poch was the one handling the squad last season.

Edited December 12, 2023 by Blue Armour

[robsblubot 3,595]

7 hours ago, Reddish-Blue said:

Playing for Brighton and the current version of Chelsea is the same thing.  We're not that top 4 side anymore with title winning pedigree. 

I agree that United has similar quality but they've been able to get some results through Garnacho and some of the other youngsters showing flashes of brilliance...feel like that is something we are also lacking.   Where is the attacking spark going to come from?    

Sad point taken.
I'd say that evidence still suggests it's not (yet?) the same. Well Garnacho is better than Mudryk--not really that close. Antony with all his weaknesses is twice the player Mudryk is, and was actually better than Sterling against us. Antony, despite his shortcomings, is a powerful athlete... maybe we are missing a bit of that up front?

I think even knowing whether Poch is good enough of a manager for us is going to be hard... and perhaps even not that important. When you fuck up the roster the way we did, gotta fix that first.

[Reddish-Blue 2,510]

10 hours ago, Costa19 said:

I mean, ETH tries to play after the material (which makes the supporters angry because they want to see his Ajax-ball) and in his present system players like Garnacho and McTominay delivers. 

We try to play possession football while the other teams are just falling back and letting us pass the ball around until we fail and they hurt us on the counter.
Where is Mudryk, Jackson, Palmer, Sterling etc meant to find space considering how we play?
Mudryk has never been a player who runs in to a brick wall and penetrate it with his strenght.. instead he should recieve the ball or run towards the ball in the areas behind the opponents back line.
He should also run against the back line while they are in a transition, not when they have parked the whole team around their penalty area.

We really need to drop deeper with our team and let the opposing team have more ball and move further up in the field so we can win the ball back and punich them with our pace and directness.

There is a reason why our best games comes from playing against the top teams (Liverpool, City, Tottenham) where we doesnt dominante the possession but instead focusing on pressing, winning the ball back and to hurt them on the counter. 
 

It's not only that, the top teams know they have a solid attack (that will produce multiple goals if needed) which means their managers can take a calculated risk and allow us to have a go in the final third. 

I agree that we need to give more of the ball to the opposition but I don't think we have enough technical thinkers in our attack to play that style of football effectively.  Based on the players signed in the most recent windows, it seems to be all about counter attacking football.   That's what I saw of Mudryk at Shaktar, Madueke at PSV, Sterling at Liverpool/City more known for his dribbling and ball carrying at pace, Jackson at his Spanish club...Palmer is the only one that came from the City system and even he was still making that breakthrough into the first team XI.

 

[Reddish-Blue 2,510]

3 hours ago, robsblubot said:

Sad point taken.
I'd say that evidence still suggests it's not (yet?) the same. Well Garnacho is better than Mudryk--not really that close. Antony with all his weaknesses is twice the player Mudryk is, and was actually better than Sterling against us. Antony, despite his shortcomings, is a powerful athlete... maybe we are missing a bit of that up front?

I think even knowing whether Poch is good enough of a manager for us is going to be hard... and perhaps even not that important. When you fuck up the roster the way we did, gotta fix that first.

I feel like we have plenty of athletes in the squad that can probably run like crazy in a straight line but they don't have the ability or know-how in terms of breaking down an opposition who will sit a bit deeper against us and soak up the pressure. 

People on here were happy to see Werner sold as he didn't fit the tactics or whatever else but I feel we replaced him with the same player in Mudryk/Madueke.  What we've sorely lacked for a number of seasons is that Hazard type attacker who can take the game on and create something out of nothing and lift the attacking momentum....and it's not easy to find that type of player in the market. 

[robsblubot 3,595]

6 minutes ago, Reddish-Blue said:

I feel like we have plenty of athletes in the squad that can probably run like crazy in a straight line but they don't have the ability or know-how in terms of breaking down an opposition who will sit a bit deeper against us and soak up the pressure. 

People on here were happy to see Werner sold as he didn't fit the tactics or whatever else but I feel we replaced him with the same player in Mudryk/Madueke.  What we've sorely lacked for a number of seasons is that Hazard type attacker who can take the game on and create something out of nothing and lift the attacking momentum....and it's not easy to find that type of player in the market. 

Don't disagree with your points. I was thinking more of power though (outmuscle the opposition), not so much running (stamina).

But yeah it's likely both: experience and build (with some correlation between the two).

[Costa19 858]

1 hour ago, Reddish-Blue said:

It's not only that, the top teams know they have a solid attack (that will produce multiple goals if needed) which means their managers can take a calculated risk and allow us to have a go in the final third. 

I agree that we need to give more of the ball to the opposition but I don't think we have enough technical thinkers in our attack to play that style of football effectively.  Based on the players signed in the most recent windows, it seems to be all about counter attacking football.   That's what I saw of Mudryk at Shaktar, Madueke at PSV, Sterling at Liverpool/City more known for his dribbling and ball carrying at pace, Jackson at his Spanish club...Palmer is the only one that came from the City system and even he was still making that breakthrough into the first team XI.

 

Yeah i agree in large parts and its both amazing and crazy how we sign a manager who wants to play old-school and out dated possession football when our recruitment team have bought players with a different skill set. 
 
The fuck is going on with the guys in charge? 
Its like signing Peter Crouch and ask him to be a gegenpressing machine.. 

[robsblubot 3,595]

1 hour ago, Costa19 said:

Yeah i agree in large parts and its both amazing and crazy how we sign a manager who wants to play old-school and out dated possession football when our recruitment team have bought players with a different skill set. 
 
The fuck is going on with the guys in charge? 
Its like signing Peter Crouch and ask him to be a gegenpressing machine.. 

Possession style? Pochetino has always used a very direct style with high pressing esp at Spurs. 🤷‍♂️

[Mário César 1,282]

our main problem is our attack

we need to score goals. our midfielder and defense control the game differently if we managed to score goals and be more times ahead in the result... 

jackson, sterling, madueke and mudryk are all average at least 

we need better players. simple as that and a better goalkeeper, btw

[robsblubot 3,595]

It's worse than that. The strategy used by the club to sign players is the craziest shit I've ever seen. Thank you Pat, for stating the obvious: 

Former Chelsea winger Pat Nevin said on BBC Radio 5 Live: "When they started buying a lot of the young players, and the ones who have no experience in the Premier League, I remember thinking 'that's a good plan, that could work in a couple of years'. "I've not changed my mind. It will take at least two years for that to bear any fruit and it's still an 'if' because you don't know which of those young players are going to develop into top Premier League players. Tough times for Chelsea at the moment."

https://www.bbc.com/sport/football/67681960

 

[Costa19 858]

8 hours ago, robsblubot said:

Possession style? Pochetino has always used a very direct style with high pressing esp at Spurs. 🤷‍♂️

I know, but do you think we play the way Poch used to play at Tottenham?

That is precisely what is my criticism, that we signed players for counter-attack and direct football but instead we hug the ball within the team without doing anything constructive while the opponents just lie low and wait for us..

[Reddish-Blue 2,510]

9 hours ago, robsblubot said:

Possession style? Pochetino has always used a very direct style with high pressing esp at Spurs. 🤷‍♂️

I haven't seen this high pressing style on a consistent basis at Chelsea.    Seems like the players are more content with keeping the ball than trying to create that moment of magic which could lead to a goal. 

Not sure if that is down to players not really understanding his instructions or whether they are just too young and need that senior midfielder (let's say for examples sake Fabregas/Jorginho/Lampard) to calm them down and coach them on the field. 

Like if you see Arsenal getting Declan Rice, he's got multiple seasons of PL football under his belt and he can read the situation very well.   That was my one concern with going all out for both Caicedo & Lavia, you bring in two players who are green and they're somehow supposed to be starting XI midfielders. 

The people in charge definitely missed a trick by not going for that 25-28 year old midfielder to help out Enzo and the other young mids at the club.  Losing the experience of Jorginho/Kante/Kovacic in consecutive windows was always going to hurt....but I didn't realise that we would go from hovering around top 6 to being uncompetitive in games and dragging ourselves to 10th place. 

[robsblubot 3,595]

6 hours ago, Reddish-Blue said:

I haven't seen this high pressing style on a consistent basis at Chelsea.    Seems like the players are more content with keeping the ball than trying to create that moment of magic which could lead to a goal. 

Not sure if that is down to players not really understanding his instructions or whether they are just too young and need that senior midfielder (let's say for examples sake Fabregas/Jorginho/Lampard) to calm them down and coach them on the field. 

3rd option: players simply aren't good enough; perhaps some don't (yet?) possess the quality or characteristics to execute the footballing tasks asks of them.

High press with Jackson, Mudryk, and Palmer? 😆 They don't have the aggression and intensity needed for that. IMO that's why he tried Chilwell as left wing and we all know how this forum reacted to that.

Edited December 13, 2023 by robsblubot

[OneMoSalah 8,886]

6 hours ago, robsblubot said:

3rd option: players simply aren't good enough; perhaps some don't (yet?) possess the quality or characteristics to execute the footballing tasks asks of them.

High press with Jackson, Mudryk, and Palmer? 😆 They don't have the aggression and intensity needed for that. IMO that's why he tried Chilwell as left wing and we all know how this forum reacted to that.

Regardless if the players are or aren’t good enough now, having spunked £1bn on them, the ownership is going to give the players much more time as opposed to Poch if it comes down to it.

13 hours ago, Reddish-Blue said:

I haven't seen this high pressing style on a consistent basis at Chelsea.    Seems like the players are more content with keeping the ball than trying to create that moment of magic which could lead to a goal. 

Not sure if that is down to players not really understanding his instructions or whether they are just too young and need that senior midfielder (let's say for examples sake Fabregas/Jorginho/Lampard) to calm them down and coach them on the field. 

I will be honest, this lack of high pressing was also something that Pochettino and his reputation seemed to get around at PSG. I mean how could anyone say they were a high pressing team when Messi, Neymar and Mbappe stood around doing fuck all/half arsing it out of possession?

I get the same feeling again that he isn’t actually trying to make us a hugely high pressing team like Southampton & Spurs were with him but more a possession based team. I mean thats what it looks like but even then, its not even that distinctive what our playing style is. Its that bad to the point that even Man United look much more of a high pressing team than we do with EtH and its next to impossible to guess what your watching when you watch them.

 

Edited December 13, 2023 by OneMoSalah