Branislav Ivanovic

[Jase 43,479]

Some fellas here really need to differentiate the difference between giving constructive criticism and (supposedly) not appreciating a player.

Just because we criticize Ivanovic (constructively), it doesn't mean we don't appreciate him. It's not like we complain about him without any legitimate reasons.

[robsblubot 3,595]

Well i do agree with you and DYC that there are goals that get scored where a defender can do everything right but the pass/cross and movement is so inch perfect that the defender simply can't intervene

however the examples i gave of Ivanovic his mistakes don't fall under that category. He didn't do everything right and there's plenty he could have done to stop or at the very least made it more difficult for the player to score.

Lampard's goal : He 's marking Lampard, ball gets switched to Milner, Ivanovic turns his back on Lampard and seems to completely forget about Lampard who makes a smart run into the back of Ivanovic, Milner passes to Lampard, goal.

Okore's goal : He completely forgets about Okore and turns his back on him. When the cross comes in he has absolutely no idea where Okore is. Goal

Chadli's goal : Again he seems to be completely oblivious of Chadli's run. He decides to double mark Kane leaving Chadli completely free and Chadli takes full advantage of that freedom. Goal

I don't really get what defending as a team has to do with Ivanovic failing to mark players in his own 18 yard box.

I also dont disagree that he switches off - Kompany switches off too and so does Hummels (not even going into quirkier CBs - who shall not be named).

The more proactive they are, more mistakes and bad judgement calls they make. Low defense line reduces the spaces behind them and makes judgement calls easier to make: do I intercept or prevent run/chase?

As they (the CBs) join the midfield and help keep possession, judgement calls become more difficult. Smart runs, like you mentioned Lampard did, create chances.

Anecdotally, Ive learned a lot playing Ultimate (aka football-frisbee) here in the US. In football/soccer we are used to play more in possession (though professionals know better). In ultimate you learn to play without the frisbee and beat your marker(s) with smart runs and change of directions. You can take a step ahead and combine with other players (shielding the run swapping position, etc) which is done a lot in Basketball too.

Point being is that Ivanovic is a bit on the slow side even as a CB. As a FB he is definitely slow. Thats something Jose certainly understands and adapts, which having ZOuma on the right side may address actually. Iva will get beat again and he will make these mistakes again. He will always be vulnerable by the way that right side is setup.

Its also about the way we are using him. Its fair to criticize him, but in the same criticism people say he bombs forward - we agree instructed by Jose. Well, that also makes him more vulnerable.

[Jase 43,479]

I also dont disagree that he switches off - Kompany switches off too and so does Hummels (not even going into quirkier CBs - who shall not be named).

The more proactive they are, more mistakes and bad judgement calls they make. Low defense line reduces the spaces behind them and makes judgement calls easier to make: do I intercept or prevent run/chase?

As they (the CBs) join the midfield and help keep possession, judgement calls become more difficult. Smart runs, like you mentioned Lampard did, create chances.

Anecdotally, Ive learned a lot playing Ultimate (aka football-frisbee) here in the US. In football/soccer we are used to play more in possession (though professionals know better). In ultimate you learn to play without the frisbee and beat your marker(s) with smart runs and change of directions. You can take a step ahead and combine with other players (shielding the run swapping position, etc) which is done a lot in Basketball too.

Point being is that Ivanovic is a bit on the slow side even as a CB. As a FB he is definitely slow. Thats something Jose certainly understands and adapts, which having ZOuma on the right side may address actually. Iva will get beat again and he will make these mistakes again. He will always be vulnerable by the way that right side is setup.

Its also about the way we are using him. Its fair to criticize him, but in the same criticism people say he bombs forward - we agree instructed by Jose. Well, that also makes him more vulnerable.

Funny thing is most of Ivanovic's mistakes happen when he's in the position to defend as opposed to being caught out of position by the opposition.

[Amblève. 4,995]

Some fellas here really need to differentiate the difference between giving constructive criticism and (supposedly) not appreciating a player.

Just because we criticize Ivanovic (constructively), it doesn't mean we don't appreciate him. It's not like we complain about him without any legitimate reasons.

Dude, it is what it is. People want Ivanovic dropped for Luis - who hasn't shown anything that would justify that decision - in every single match thread. Is that their way to show appreciation to one of our most clutch players?

Ivanovic does make some bad decisions but overall he's a positive. You live with the bad because the good outweigh them.

[Jase 43,479]

Dude, it is what it is. People want Ivanovic dropped for Luis - who hasn't shown anything that would justify that decision - in every single match thread. Is that their way to show appreciation to one of our most clutch players?

Ivanovic does make some bad decisions but overall he's a positive. You live with the bad because the good outweigh them.

People want Luis to start (and Azpi move to RB) because Ivanovic is failing to do his primary task as a defender well. It's not that people don't appreciate him, it's just he's made so many basic defensive errors that it's almost justified to drop him. He might have scored some important goals for us this season, I don't deny that, but that doesn't mean he should be getting away scot-free from his mistakes. Nothing wrong with fans wanting him to (at least) buck up defensively.

[WNDS 502]

Dude, it is what it is. People want Ivanovic dropped for Luis - who hasn't shown anything that would justify that decision - in every single match thread. Is that their way to show appreciation to one of our most clutch players?

Ivanovic does make some bad decisions but overall he's a positive. You live with the bad because the good outweigh them.

I really don't agree with your assertion that Luis 'hasn't shown anything' to justify such a switch; he's been our best/most consistent FB (in terms of his defending) for the last two months. Weirdly though, Azpi has probably been the least impressive of the FBs over that same time-period, and so is probably more under threat of losing his place than Ivanovic currently is.

As for Ivanovic, while his defending still leaves something to be desired, he has been making decisive (and positive) contributions to a lot of our more recent matches, and so should remain in the team for now. I DO maintain, however, that if he returns to performing in the way that he often did over November/December/some of January (lapses leading to opposition goals that were not offset by his attacking contributions), he SHOULD be a candidate for being dropped to the bench.

[Belgiannutt 3,201]

I also dont disagree that he switches off - Kompany switches off too and so does Hummels (not even going into quirkier CBs - who shall not be named).

The more proactive they are, more mistakes and bad judgement calls they make. Low defense line reduces the spaces behind them and makes judgement calls easier to make: do I intercept or prevent run/chase?

As they (the CBs) join the midfield and help keep possession, judgement calls become more difficult. Smart runs, like you mentioned Lampard did, create chances.

Anecdotally, Ive learned a lot playing Ultimate (aka football-frisbee) here in the US. In football/soccer we are used to play more in possession (though professionals know better). In ultimate you learn to play without the frisbee and beat your marker(s) with smart runs and change of directions. You can take a step ahead and combine with other players (shielding the run swapping position, etc) which is done a lot in Basketball too.

Point being is that Ivanovic is a bit on the slow side even as a CB. As a FB he is definitely slow. Thats something Jose certainly understands and adapts, which having ZOuma on the right side may address actually. Iva will get beat again and he will make these mistakes again. He will always be vulnerable by the way that right side is setup.

Its also about the way we are using him. Its fair to criticize him, but in the same criticism people say he bombs forward - we agree instructed by Jose. Well, that also makes him more vulnerable.

Don't get why you're bringing up proactive defending. Ivanovic isn't a proactive defender and the mistakes he makes don't come from proactive defending.

Yes every player makes mistakes even the best but there's a limit. Ivanovic has made more mistakes then you expect an experienced defender to make.

The majority of Ivanovic his mistakes happen when we're defending deep and you just said it yourself "Low defense line reduces the spaces behind them and makes judgement calls easier to make"

So even with the space reduced and the judgment calls easier to make he's still making too many mistakes.

"Iva will get beat again and he will make these mistakes again." Well that's kinda the problem... That's why people are criticizing him and why some people want Luis to start because he'll keep making them.

Again, "the way we setup on the right" and "Ivanovic bombing forward" has nothing to do with his mistakes. The majority of his mistakes happen when he's defending deep.

So you can't use his bombing forward or "the way we use him" as an excuse for his mistakes.

[robsblubot 3,595]

Don't get why you're bringing up proactive defending. Ivanovic isn't a proactive defender and the mistakes he makes don't come from proactive defending.

Yes every player makes mistakes even the best but there's a limit. Ivanovic has made more mistakes then you expect an experienced defender to make.

The majority of Ivanovic his mistakes happen when we're defending deep and you just said it yourself "Low defense line reduces the spaces behind them and makes judgement calls easier to make"

So even with the space reduced and the judgment calls easier to make he's still making too many mistakes.

"Iva will get beat again and he will make these mistakes again." Well that's kinda the problem... That's why people are criticizing him and why some people want Luis to start because he'll keep making them.

Again, "the way we setup on the right" and "Ivanovic bombing forward" has nothing to do with his mistakes. The majority of his mistakes happen when he's defending deep.

So you can't use his bombing forward or "the way we use him" as an excuse for his mistakes.

I think I alreayd made my point so we are running in circles as we tend do do around here.

For me, and me alone, Ivanovic is unfairly criticized. His FOCUS (not merely positioning) is attacking because that's his posture on the pitch and the manager seems to be content with that. Now, if you think players can do both (defend and attack) seamlessly, then I will just have to disagree.

And also disagree on defending deep as well. As we have already established (did you not write that?) that he bombs forward, he is often coming back to defense. Unless he can magically appear deep in defense after sprinting forward.

[Belgiannutt 3,201]

I think I alreayd made my point so we are running in circles as we tend do do around here.

For me, and me alone, Ivanovic is unfairly criticized. His FOCUS (not merely positioning) is attacking because that's his posture on the pitch and the manager seems to be content with that. Now, if you think players can do both (defend and attack) seamlessly, then I will just have to disagree.

And also disagree on defending deep as well. As we have already established (did you not write that?) that he bombs forward, he is often coming back to defense. Unless he can magically appear deep in defense after sprinting forward.

Yeah we'll have to disagree on that. Just because Ivanovic is instructed to bomb forward doesn't mean it's acceptable for him to make basic defensive errors.

Magically appear ? You're acting like he has to travel around the world to get back into position. It takes him like what 15 to 20 seconds to get back into position ?

Like i said before, and Jason said it too, the majority of the mistakes Ivanovic makes are when he defends deep.

Yes i did write that he bombs forward but he only bomb's forward when we have the ball, when we lose the ball it takes him about 15 to 20 seconds to get back at which point he's defending deep.

Even if we try and press at times when we don't have the ball we usually drop deep and keep everyone but our striker behind the ball.

[robsblubot 3,595]

Yeah we'll have to disagree on that. Just because Ivanovic is instructed to bomb forward doesn't mean it's acceptable for him to make basic defensive errors.

Magically appear ? You're acting like he has to travel around the world to get back into position. It takes him like what 15 to 20 seconds to get back into position ?

Like i said before, and Jason said it too, the majority of the mistakes Ivanovic makes are when he defends deep.

Yes i did write that he bombs forward but he only bomb's forward when we have the ball, when we lose the ball it takes him about 15 to 20 seconds to get back at which point he's defending deep.

Even if we try and press at times when we don't have the ball we usually drop deep and keep everyone but our striker behind the ball.

Sorry are you saying that moving up and down the pitch does not take a toll on the player? And that the fact hes instructed by his manager to attack and has to think about ways to get into attacking positions constantly CANT possibly negatively affect his VERY proven defensive abilities?

The idea that he can defend as a CB, but forgets how to do that when in RB position sounds a bit crazy to me.

[Belgiannutt 3,201]

Sorry are you saying that moving up and down the pitch does not take a toll on the player? And that the fact hes instructed by his manager to attack and has to think about ways to get into attacking positions constantly CANT possibly negatively affect his VERY proven defensive abilities?

The idea that he can defend as a CB, but forgets how to do that when in RB position sounds a bit crazy to me.

Think it's best if we just agree to disagree. We've both said what we wanted to say but we simply aren't gonna see eye to eye on this.

[The Chels 2,502]

The idea that he can defend as a CB, but forgets how to do that when in RB position sounds a bit crazy to me.

The match against Derby was the only time Ivanovic (officially) played at CB this season and he just so happened to be responsible for the goal conceded. He seems to be a mistake waiting to happen wherever he plays but I guess at RB he is more likely to make up for that with some output at the attacking end. He actually also drops very deep into the box quite often to the point where he is at CB but that doesn't see him defend particularly well (e.g. Lukaku sitter and countless other occasions).

Ivanovic clearly does bring certain qualities to the team. For example the opposition would likely never see him as an aerial weakness at the back post the way Atletico and PSG did against Azpi, he is our outball from goalkicks and he provides a threat from set pieces. But that doesn't mean complaints about his defending should be completely dismissed. The biggest qualms with Ivanovic tend to be that he defends nonchalantly and amateurishly when 1v1, and that he suffers from regular, costly lapses in concentration (or intelligence as we saw with the Moreno chance at Stamford Bridge). I think these are valid concerns that can't simply be justified by the argument that he is instructed to attack a lot.

[robsblubot 3,595]

The match against Derby was the only time Ivanovic (officially) played at CB this season and he just so happened to be responsible for the goal conceded. He seems to be a mistake waiting to happen wherever he plays but I guess at RB he is more likely to make up for that with some output at the attacking end. He actually also drops very deep into the box quite often to the point where he is at CB but that doesn't see him defend particularly well (e.g. Lukaku sitter and countless other occasions).

Ivanovic clearly does bring certain qualities to the team. For example the opposition would likely never see him as an aerial weakness at the back post the way Atletico and PSG did against Azpi, he is our outball from goalkicks and he provides a threat from set pieces. But that doesn't mean complaints about his defending should be completely dismissed. The biggest qualms with Ivanovic tend to be that he defends nonchalantly and amateurishly when 1v1, and that he suffers from regular, costly lapses in concentration (or intelligence as we saw with the Moreno chance at Stamford Bridge). I think these are valid concerns that can't simply be justified by the argument that he is instructed to attack a lot.

He played one game as a cb this season you say, perhaps that's the reason he didn't do too well. Because I remembed Iva doing very well as a cb a couple of seasons back.

Other points fair enough but I never said to dismiss his mistakes, but that he's been unfairly criticized for making them - not the same.

[didierforever 7,349]

why does not he get the credit to be awesome defensively when he plays so awesome but he gets ridiculed week in and week out when its obvious that its the tactics that makes our right hand side circumspect.

[yuvala 2,167]

Brilliant today !