🇩🇪 Timo Werner

[King Kante 1,643]

3 hours ago, Superblue_1986 said:

Lukaku will never fall into the Kepa category. I don't think there will ever be a worse signing when you break the world record for a keeper and he turns out to be a bust. 

At least with outfield players if things don't turn out how you'd hope they can still play a role within the squad. A second choice keeper, barring injuries, will be lucky to play half a dozen games a season.

I'm definitely not giving up on Lukaku though. I think he needs to adapt to the way we play compared to how Conte did at Inter. It might be a back 3 but that's where the comparisons stop between Tuchel and Conte. However I believe Tuchel will get really good mileage out of Lukaku. There's few players who haven't benefited from him since he's been here. Of course he has deficiencies to his game but he will score goals and if we're challenging for the title this season his presence up top could be the difference between 3 points and 1 point in some games.

Yeah, I wasn't saying that he was going to be as bad as Kepa, the point I was trying to make was during 2017-2018 we brought a lot of players who were bad fits for the league/squad and thus became square pegs pretty quickly.

As @Magic Lampssays, it was pretty clear when in Italy he was doing well because of his physical advantages and the lower level there. This is also why he continued to underperform in the CL and would still go missing for Belgium when it mattered. 

For me, thinking he is going to adapt his game now is pretty futile. What we're seeing at the moment is the same sort of performances as he was putting in Utd l. Additionally, if you actually compare him to other CF's in Italy such as; Immobile, Zapata, Ibra, Murial etc, he didn't outperform any of them over his two year period on a minute to minute basis, whilst Giroud is currently doing the same sort of job he was on a minute to minute basis.

For me, he is simply a CF who is of that quality level (Ibra at 38-40; not prime obviously) and it was absolute madness going for him as it means we now have to bench him in important games or completely rip up our formation and style to play to his strengths to try and get the best out of him.

This essentially was why I was completely against his signing as where people saw a plug and play world class CF, I saw the same player (a good CF, but technically limited player) who would need the system here adapted to get the best out of him, which is detrimental for the other players' in the squad. This also goes double as, because he was so expensive, we cannot just write him off as a bad signing; this also happened with Kepa where he continued to play long after he should've done in the hope it could work. 

As I said, this was all fairly obvious, so how we end up in this position is incredibly frustrating as it is not as if we haven't been here before with buying players who aren't good fits for us. 

[MoroccanBlue 5,382]

To be honest he is now entering Morata/Torres territory with regards to his positioning in the box. Just no IQ what so ever. 

[Tomo 21,751]

22 hours ago, Dan Lee said:

Agreed. I don't come here often because of the negativity. I am not sure whether people are real fans. 

Real fans want what's best for the club not a replaceable employee who fucked off at the first sign of trouble at previous clubs which includes out very selves.

On another note is it me or is it always the most expensive players that attract people acting almost as lawyers for them? You get some so quick to jump to the defense of the likes of Lukaku and Kepa but I can't remember similar dedication to defend say Kalou and Turnbull. It seems the more someone costs the less expectations they get held to.

Edited December 1, 2021 by Tomo

[Jype 6,398]

3 hours ago, Tomo said:

On another note is it me or is it always the most expensive players that attract people acting almost as lawyers for them? You get some so quick to jump to the defense of the likes of Lukaku and Kepa but I can't remember similar dedication to defend say Kalou and Turnbull. It seems the more someone costs the less expectations they get held to.

I would guess it's because generally speaking the more expensive players are usually the ones who have had better careers / performances elsewhere before joining the club and that makes it "easier" for many people to grant them that little bit of extra credit in the bank to show they can still make it even if they struggle. On the other hand someone who's never shown anything special is "easier" to write off if they continue to be bad.

Obviously for someone like Lukaku the expectations should be sky high due to the transfer fee and wages he's on, but at the same time I think it's ridiculous to write him off already having played only ~10 games, but many people wrote him off even before he signed so I'm not surprised at all. I've seen enough from Lukaku to believe he'll come good with a little bit of time on the training ground to figure out how to get on the same wavelength with his team-mates and get to know what it is the manager want from him, but of course he needs to start performing soon to escape larger criticism. 

[MoroccanBlue 5,382]

Matt Law indicated on the London is Blue podcast he could potentially leave in the summer. Dortmund or Bayern main suitors. Ruled out a move to United as he doesn't expect Werner to stay in England. 

[Pizy 18,909]

I’m still at a complete loss of words at how poor he has been since moving here. Of all the striker duds we’ve signed in the last decade, Werner’s failure is the most difficult to explain. Torres and Falcao were already damaged goods. Morata was never good enough to be the main striker for a top club. Diego Costa was a total nutcase.

Werner was coming off of two great seasons in Germany (and a world class final season there) and has the perfect skill set that should have translated well into the PL. Awesome pace, loves running the channels, was one of the best in Europe against high defensive lines, and most important of all he was a lethal finisher who scored from everywhere.

How does a player go from all that to what we’ve seen? I sadly do think it isn’t looking likely that he’ll be here much longer. What sucks is that I think wherever he moves he’ll regain form and look good again. 

[MoroccanBlue 5,382]

31 minutes ago, Pizy said:

I’m still at a complete loss of words at how poor he has been since moving here. Of all the striker duds we’ve signed in the last decade, Werner’s failure is the most difficult to explain. Torres and Falcao were already damaged goods. Morata was never good enough to be the main striker for a top club. Diego Costa was a total nutcase.

Werner was coming off of two great seasons in Germany (and a world class final season there) and has the perfect skill set that should have translated well into the PL. Awesome pace, loves running the channels, was one of the best in Europe against high defensive lines, and most important of all he was a lethal finisher who scored from everywhere.

How does a player go from all that to what we’ve seen? I sadly do think it isn’t looking likely that he’ll be here much longer. What sucks is that I think wherever he moves he’ll regain form and look good again. 

We were warned by Bundesliga fans that Werner thrives in a counter attacking set up and that he was wasteful. 

I think I'm most shocked of his horrid footballing IQ in the final third. 

[Tomo 21,751]

5 hours ago, Jype said:

I would guess it's because generally speaking the more expensive players are usually the ones who have had better careers / performances elsewhere before joining the club and that makes it "easier" for many people to grant them that little bit of extra credit in the bank to show they can still make it even if they struggle. On the other hand someone who's never shown anything special is "easier" to write off if they continue to be bad.

Obviously for someone like Lukaku the expectations should be sky high due to the transfer fee and wages he's on, but at the same time I think it's ridiculous to write him off already having played only ~10 games, but many people wrote him off even before he signed so I'm not surprised at all. I've seen enough from Lukaku to believe he'll come good with a little bit of time on the training ground to figure out how to get on the same wavelength with his team-mates and get to know what it is the manager want from him, but of course he needs to start performing soon to escape larger criticism. 

Lukaku is largely getting critisised because he is being played unconditionally when fit and not only is his performances not justifying such an untouchable role his inclusion is totally compromising a system that won us the UCL and almost every single big game.

If he was rotated more adequetely and saved for when a tactical situation required him I doubt they'll be many complaints but I'm personally finding it hugely frustrating seeing such a promising/successful system being ripped up to accommodate him and for such an adjustment he needs to be offering both the performances and numbers to justify such and he simply isn't.

[MoroccanBlue 5,382]

16 minutes ago, Tomo said:

Lukaku is largely getting critisised because he is being played unconditionally when fit and not only is his performances not justifying such an untouchable role his inclusion is totally compromising a system that won us the UCL and almost every single big game.

If he was rotated more adequetely and saved for when a tactical situation required him I doubt they'll be many complaints but I'm personally finding it hugely frustrating seeing such a promising/successful system being ripped up to accommodate him and for such an adjustment he needs to be offering both the performances and numbers to justify such and he simply isn't.

I think he could do a job as a starter but not as our focal point. As you alluded to and many others (including myself) I'd like us to continue the false 9 with Lukaku as the RF/RW. 

[Jype 6,398]

13 minutes ago, Tomo said:

Lukaku is largely getting critisised because he is being played unconditionally when fit and not only is his performances not justifying such an untouchable role his inclusion is totally compromising a system that won us the UCL and almost every single big game.

If he was rotated more adequetely and saved for when a tactical situation required him I doubt they'll be many complaints but I'm personally finding it hugely frustrating seeing such a promising/successful system being ripped up to accommodate him and for such an adjustment he needs to be offering both the performances and numbers to justify such and he simply isn't.

I think it's too early to make such claims.

Lukaku started off with a good scoring record (4 goals in his first 4 games for the club) which in my opinion definitely justified picking him for the next few matches as well. In hindsight he might not have been the best option for some of them (especially City) but at the time his selection was definitely made on merit and not because he cost so much and was somehow 'untouchable' because of the price tag.

Then after a few bad games he got injured so we'll never know if he'd have continued starting games regardless of opponent and form. Tuchel is a smart man and I trust him not to pick Lukaku for certain games forever if he doesn't perform in them.

[Tomo 21,751]

7 minutes ago, Jype said:

I think it's too early to make such claims.

Lukaku started off with a good scoring record (4 goals in his first 4 games for the club) which in my opinion definitely justified picking him for the next few matches as well. In hindsight he might not have been the best option for some of them (especially City) but at the time his selection was definitely made on merit and not because he cost so much and was somehow 'untouchable' because of the price tag.

Then after a few bad games he got injured so we'll never know if he'd have continued starting games regardless of opponent and form. Tuchel is a smart man and I trust him not to pick Lukaku for certain games forever if he doesn't perform in them.

The Villa and Zenit games are actually proof that he needs to score to justify his inclusion. The signs he was comprising the system were there even then, we created little to nothing and in the case of the former match we were battered for the first half (granted Saul was the biggest culprit but still).

My biggest issue is his pressing. I think a manager as clued up as Tuchel can work around his deficiencies going forward (like he did with Werner) but his lack of pressing is a massive massive problem. We are arguably the best side in Europe at it when he doesn't play yet this season pre his injury our pressing stats were near the bottom of the table and at the same level at Spurs, the lifeless Spurs under Nuno. Not only is pressing the first line of defense it's our biggest creative outlet (as we aren't brilliant at breaking down structured teams set in position) so it's simply not sustainable for us to have relegation level pressing stats and if it weren't for Edou we'd have lost likely lost to Villa, Brentford and received an absolute royal hammering by City.

I remember in his first season at City Pep dropped Aguero and told him he'll return once he adapts to his system/demands, given how well we've played without him it's now upto Rom to adapt to us, not the other way round.

[King Kante 1,643]

57 minutes ago, Tomo said:

The Villa and Zenit games are actually proof that he needs to score to justify his inclusion. The signs he was comprising the system were there even then, we created little to nothing and in the case of the former match we were battered for the first half (granted Saul was the biggest culprit but still).

My biggest issue is his pressing. I think a manager as clued up as Tuchel can work around his deficiencies going forward (like he did with Werner) but his lack of pressing is a massive massive problem. We are arguably the best side in Europe at it when he doesn't play yet this season pre his injury our pressing stats were near the bottom of the table and at the same level at Spurs, the lifeless Spurs under Nuno. Not only is pressing the first line of defense it's our biggest creative outlet (as we aren't brilliant at breaking down structured teams set in position) so it's simply not sustainable for us to have relegation level pressing stats and if it weren't for Edou we'd have lost likely lost to Villa, Brentford and received an absolute royal hammering by City.

I remember in his first season at City Pep dropped Aguero and told him he'll return once he adapts to his system/demands, given how well we've played without him it's now upto Rom to adapt to us, not the other way round.

The thing that is most frustrating is that this was all very obvious before we signed him, so why we went out and did it is completely baffling. Lukaku has always been known as a technically limited footballer who does not have much of a work rate when it comes to pressing. What is happening should not be a surprise to anyone as it was obvious this would happen. 

All we can hope for now is that he bangs in enough against the lower quality teams like Watford tonight and is on the bench for the big games. 

[NikkiCFC 8,319]

8 hours ago, Pizy said:

What sucks is that I think wherever he moves he’ll regain form and look good again. 

Him scoring again for fun in Bayern or Dortmund won't tell anything and we will not regret it. Jovic or Michy scored in Bundesliga like crazy so that won't surprised me at all. 

[Jase 43,479]

16 hours ago, MoroccanBlue said:

Matt Law indicated on the London is Blue podcast he could potentially leave in the summer. Dortmund or Bayern main suitors. Ruled out a move to United as he doesn't expect Werner to stay in England. 

But what if we end up with no takers for Werner? I mean, if we want to attract suitors, you would think he would have to do well between now and the end of the season, unless of course the club are willing to take a huge loss on him. And of course, if he does well between now and the end of the season, the conversation would probably not about him leaving etc.

I have mentioned/asked this before and since I haven't gotten any convincing reply on this anywhere, I'll mention/ask again.

Matt Law's speculation with Bayern is that it depends on whether Lewandowski stays but what if he stays? Then what? On the other hand, if he does leave, is there any guarantee that Bayern will come after him? Nagelsmann may like Werner but their sporting director doesn't and turned down the chance to sign him from RB Leipzig. Why would he do it now?

With Dortmund, sure, they may have Werner on their list but are they willing to potentially pay a huge transfer fee and the wages? Maybe @Magic Lamps can shed some light on this but all the recent reports I've seen is that Dortmund are eyeing Karim Adeyemi and Werner supposedly isn't high on their list. If they get Adeyemi or another striker, again, then what? 

[Jase 43,479]

7 hours ago, NikkiCFC said:

Him scoring again for fun in Bayern or Dortmund won't tell anything and we will not regret it. Jovic or Michy scored in Bundesliga like crazy so that won't surprised me at all. 

Thought you said you don't want to be part of the community? 🤨

[NikkiCFC 8,319]

1 hour ago, Jase said:

Thought you said you don't want to be part of the community? 🤨

You are not that lucky! 

[Jase 43,479]

21 minutes ago, NikkiCFC said:

You are not that lucky! 

You're the one who said it.

And I can just make it happen at any time. 😏

[Magic Lamps 11,692]

2 hours ago, Jase said:

But what if we end up with no takers for Werner? I mean, if we want to attract suitors, you would think he would have to do well between now and the end of the season, unless of course the club are willing to take a huge loss on him. And of course, if he does well between now and the end of the season, the conversation would probably not about him leaving etc.

I have mentioned/asked this before and since I haven't gotten any convincing reply on this anywhere, I'll mention/ask again.

Matt Law's speculation with Bayern is that it depends on whether Lewandowski stays but what if he stays? Then what? On the other hand, if he does leave, is there any guarantee that Bayern will come after him? Nagelsmann may like Werner but their sporting director doesn't and turned down the chance to sign him from RB Leipzig. Why would he do it now?

With Dortmund, sure, they may have Werner on their list but are they willing to potentially pay a huge transfer fee and the wages? Maybe @Magic Lamps can shed some light on this but all the recent reports I've seen is that Dortmund are eyeing Karim Adeyemi and Werner supposedly isn't high on their list. If they get Adeyemi or another striker, again, then what? 

I can’t see it happening this summer tbh

this is what I learned from transfer rumours here

BVB can afford Werner but as opposed to Haaland they are probably not willing to upend their wage structure for him.( Adeyemi would be a trademark signing and is definitely prioritised. )

Bayern would have fewer problems doing so yet he does not suit their footy at all. But Nagelsmann might be willing to accommodate him. 
Werner wants a move quite desperately. He feels the needs to be the main man again. 

A lot would have to come together for Timo to go back to Bundesliga tho. 

[Jase 43,479]

3 hours ago, Magic Lamps said:

BVB can afford Werner

Even if Werner costs say 40 million? Isn't the most they have paid for a player is somewhere around 30 million only?

3 hours ago, Magic Lamps said:

Bayern would have fewer problems doing so yet he does not suit their footy at all. But Nagelsmann might be willing to accommodate him. 
Werner wants a move quite desperately. He feels the needs to be the main man again. 

Hansi Flick wanted Werner but didn't get him because of Salihamidzic. Would Nagelsmann have better luck?

And what if Lewandowski stays? Wouldn't Werner just basically be trading the same position for another? 

The irony of wanting to be the main man is that he could be one here if he's just able to score a tad more regularly. 

[NikkiCFC 8,319]

Ok, something positive. 2 goals and 1 assist for Timo. Best outfield player today. Deserves to start against Leeds with Kai and Ziyech.